Bi-wiring my Polk LSi9s

bthogan

First, I'd like to thank Upstatemax for suggesting that I bi-wire my speakers, in another thread. The idea hadn't even been on my radar until then - it was just one of those things that I'd heard about, but wasn't motivated to investigate. Then I got some new speaker cable, and yakked about it in another thread, and max suggested that I might want to try bi-wiring the speakers, since I now had two sets of cable.

Secondly, once I became more interested, and began to do some online research, I quickly learned that this is a "can of worms" topic. The best way to sum it up, I think, is (quoting someone else): "it may make a difference, or it may not; the difference may be an improvement, or it may not." Apparently, among other things, it became (some felt) faddish to put two sets of posts on speakers, because that's what the customers wanted. There are also, of course, "theoretical" discussions about whether it could possibly make any difference - the sort of "snake oil/all in your head" stuff that a bunch of audio equipment debates attract. I'm not gonna touch that stuff; just gonna share my own experience.

It began (as indicated) with my purchase of a new set of speaker cables. However, I didn't really like the new cables - nothing wrong with them, just not the sound I was looking for; not my idea of an improvement. I started a thread about it, and in that thread, Upstatemax suggested that I try bi-wiring my Polks. In the meantime, I'd gotten a new pair of the old cables; that is, same brand (Blue Jean), but with spades, because I was tired of wrestling with raw wire. So I took my new cables, and my newer cables, and bi-wired my speakers (I won't go into the procedure; it's easy, and I did it).

I wasn't impressed, at first, partly because the new cables still had a sound that I didn't like. But I did notice a difference, and since I still had my old cables (Blue Jeans, raw wire ends), I thought I'd give it another try before I just went with the spaded Blue Jeans by themselves.

And I was amazed. The difference - the improvement - is really something. Certainly not subjective. Lows and highs are clearer, more well-defined; bass is more controlled, and highs don't labor. Bigger, cleaner soundstage. Everything has more presence. Separation, which is an effect I love, is greatly enhanced; also, the blacks, as they say, are blacker than black. I'm very very happy that I bi-wired these speakers - I really am very very grateful to you, Upstatemax - and I'm not going back to single-wire any time soon.

Now:

1. Some folks say that if you're gonna bi-wire - that is, get another set of cables - then, given its iffy effect (it may not make a difference, and the difference maight not be good), you might as well just get better speakers with the money you'd spend on cables. In my case, I already had the cable laying around, and I won't have the cash for a real speaker upgrade any time soon, so this doesn't really raise the money-well-spent issue.
2. In my research, I came across an intersting analysis, which talks about the advantages and disadvantages of bi-wiring. Among the disadvantages was something interesting; basically, the author says that the things that I like (love) about bi-wiring may eventually become what I hate about it:

"...usually, just as you may expect from physics, it appears as a change in the reproduction of space and sound stage. Often, the first impression is that the "biwired" sound presents extended "dimensions", more "air", and is more "living". The impression after a week or month, however, is that all recordings sound very much alike, and the "airiness" appears on all records. It does not even sound like air anymore, instead more like a slime that pollutes every record you play. No wonder, since it is not a real, recorded quality but a "speaker characteristic" added to all reproduced material. "Sameness" is another word for it."

I really, really hope that this doesn't end up like that - but I was struck that he had named some of the very things that I am (for now) very pleased with. It seems worth mentioning. Here's that article:

http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html

I don't know anything about the author, or the site, or any interest he/it may have in whether or not folks bi-wire. But it was an interesting read.

Finally: in my research, it did appear that there are some speakers which are, in fact, made to be bi-wired (I would guess that these are the speakers that benefit from bi-wiring). Physically separate high and low crossover sections, something along those lines. In these instances, the jumpers (for single cable) aren't just faddish; they're necessary. Now, the Polk LSi9 manual actually recommends bi-wiring for optimum performance, but then, a lot of people who put two sets of posts on their speakers probably say that, don't they? However, it doesn't give a diagram of the crossover, or otherwise "prove" that they should be bi-wired, and I couldn't find anything online that showed the speakers' internals. I'm wondering if anyone knows if these speakers were designed to be bi-wired for optimum performance, or if I'm just getting (what I think is) superior performance because...because.

In (almost) closing, I should mention that I also saw that replacing default jumpers with (good) speaker cable (just a short length connecting the two sets of posts) can also improve performance noticeably, without having to deal with getting, hooking up, and running two sets of cables. So that may be something I'll try - I'd previously just used the jumpers that came with the speakers.

In (real) closing, I'd just like to repeat that I am amazed at the improvement that bi-wiring has given me - I'm being polite about it, but if I'd typed this last night, I would have used expletives (in a good way). I almost feel like I've wasted the past two years with these speakers - I've missed out on hearing what they're really capable of. That's right, I'm so happy that I'm actually kind of sad!

Any, that's my experience with bi-wiring (so far). Thanks for reading, and please feel free to share your own experience, or your recipe for deviled eggs (<3 deviled eggs).

Dawgfish

Good for you for trying it. I've biwired many times when I'm running speakers capable of it. I've always noticed a positive improvement. Others opinions differ wildly on this but the bottom line is you'll never know for sure unless you try it. I applaud you for that!

jbooker82

I just use single bi wire cables as a way to eliminate the jumpers. On the amp end there is one set of banana plugs. On the speaker end there is two pairs. They are AudioQuest Type 8's

Upstatemax

Credit goes to Skrol!

I just suggested to check out Douglas cables.

tonyb

What do you know, yet another who threw his biases to the wind and tried stuff for himself. Go figure.....

bthogan

Upstatemax wrote: »

Credit goes to Skrol!

I just suggested to check out Douglas cables.

Skrol! Skrol!

Thank you Skrol!

And thanks max for Douglas recommendation!

bthogan

Just wanted to check in and say that I'm still really unhappy that it took me so long to bi-wire these speakers. Wasted a lot of time that I could have spent being very very pleased and entertained. I highly recommend bi-wiring these speakers (and probably any other LSi's) AS SOON AS YOU GET THEM.

edit: actually, you might want to wait a week or two, just so you can be amazed by the difference it makes.

Upstatemax

bthogan wrote: »

Just wanted to check in and say that I'm still really unhappy that it took me so long to bi-wire these speakers. Wasted a lot of time that I could have spent being very very pleased and entertained. I highly recommend bi-wiring these speakers (and probably any other LSi's) AS SOON AS YOU GET THEM.

edit: actually, you might want to wait a week or two, just so you can be amazed by the difference it makes.

Don't ever be upset...

Where is the fun in finding what you love right away. The journey is all about trying out loads of stuff and finding what YOU like.

F1nut

In (almost) closing, I should mention that I also saw that replacing default jumpers with (good) speaker cable (just a short length connecting the two sets of posts) can also improve performance noticeably, without having to deal with getting, hooking up, and running two sets of cables. So that may be something I'll try - I'd previously just used the jumpers that came with the speakers.

Yep. If you had replaced the stock jumpers with high quality wire you'd get the same results you're getting from bi-wiring.

bthogan

F1nut wrote: »

Yep. If you had replaced the stock jumpers with high quality wire you'd get the same results you're getting from bi-wiring.

I'll probably give that a shot soon, and report back.

leftwinger57

I've seen the double binding posts on most speaker brands both on floor standers and on bookshelf types.Over these few years I personally have not had the chance nor do any of my sets of speakers afford the opportunity to use this form of wiring. The one thing I do know is when I was looking for speakers a few years back I came across both new and used Vandersteens at various models and price points. Richard Vandersteen himself over the phone implores any buyer of his cabinets to bi-wire them w/ no qualification. He did not shill any brand of wire or company only to say that if your left run is 8' then you must match that to the right at 8' also. Does it work?I don't know but on his speakers it does and that's the only bi-wire direct story I have w/ the exception of the guy I bought my ADC 303ax from and he had in his big room huge 2 piece Albert Van Alsteins that were also bi-wired w/ a cable w/ a girth of an Anaconda.

bthogan

DSkip wrote: »

Check out Doug's alpha cables if you decide to go that route. They should be a better fit sonically than his furez cables. More money, yes, but also better sound.

Thanks! I'll try to remember that when I go on my next cable safari in a few months.

I must admit that my Blue Jeans cables really have me in a good place right now - the bi-wire set-up has really gotten rid of some of the issues I had with my system's sound (that I had attributed, in part, to the cables) and shown me how good these speakers can sound. Seems like it was more of a single-run/cheap jumpers issue, like F1nut mentioned. As indicated in OP, I did give some (slightly) more expensive cables a shot (single run), and while they weren't "bad", they weren't what I was looking for. It's probably fairly subjective, but I really like the sound that the Blue Jeans seem to add to my system - a slight hardness, that gives some punch to a system that is, on the whole, fairly laid-back.

However, I know I'll be trying out some other cables eventually. I don't mind losing a few bucks on Audiogon (or here) if things don't work out.

leftwinger57 wrote: »

I've seen the double binding posts on most speaker brands both on floor standers and on bookshelf types.Over these few years I personally have not had the chance nor do any of my sets of speakers afford the opportunity to use this form of wiring. The one thing I do know is when I was looking for speakers a few years back I came across both new and used Vandersteens at various models and price points. Richard Vandersteen himself over the phone implores any buyer of his cabinets to bi-wire them w/ no qualification. He did not shill any brand of wire or company only to say that if your left run is 8' then you must match that to the right at 8' also. Does it work?I don't know but on his speakers it does and that's the only bi-wire direct story I have w/ the exception of the guy I bought my ADC 303ax from and he had in his big room huge 2 piece Albert Van Alsteins that were also bi-wired w/ a cable w/ a girth of an Anaconda.

Vandersteen's opinion re: bi-wiring is one of the reasons I gave this a shot - there's an article by him somewhere out there, that I don't have the energy to look for now, where he explains his position. And he does seem like someone who would have an opinion worth listening to; also, as you note, he doesn't really have an interest either way, aside from wanting his speakers to sound as good as they can. My research did indicate that (1) speakers have to be built for it, and (2) it did become a bit of a fad, with manufacturers putting on dual posts even when the speakers weren't really built for bi-wiring. I wasn't sure what I'd get with my LSi9s, but it seems like it worked out. I do plan to give F1nut's suggestion a try, though. Less clutter.

F1nut

My research did indicate that (1) speakers have to be built for it,

The notion that a speaker has to built for bi-wiring makes no sense. Any speaker with dual posts is built for bi-wiring. The only possible upside to bi-wiring is an effective increase in wire gauge.

However, I know I'll be trying out some other cables eventually.

Why don't you join the MIT StyleLine cable demo, http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?157156-MIT-StyleLine-Cable-Demo-Review-Round-5-USA

bthogan

F1nut wrote: »

The notion that a speaker has to built for bi-wiring makes no sense. Any speaker with dual posts is built for bi-wiring. The only possible upside to bi-wiring is an effective increase in wire gauge.

Some speakers have discrete internal hi/lo sections (power to one section won't go to other section), which is why external jumpers are needed. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll sound better with bi-wire vs. single wire with decent jumper (e.g. good speaker cable). Just means the speakers are "built" for bi-wiring - single cable to one post, without jumpers, won't power the whole speaker (i.e. you won't get the frequencies from the unpowered section).

How do I know? (1) A bunch of people online explained it, and (2) I just disconnected the wires to my bottom posts, but left the top posts connected. Low frequencies disappeared, high frequencies remained. Bass/mid drivers were silent.

Reading online, it sounds like some manufacturers put dual posts on speakers that don't have discrete hi/lo sections (in which case, I would guess that the external jumpers are "redundant"; that is, unnecessary). Why? Consumer demand for "bi-wiring capabilities", looks cool, etc. However, according to some folks' experience, that doesn't mean that speakers with dual posts, but non-discrete hi/lo sections - i.e. not "built" for bi-wiring - won't benefit from bi-wiring. The main thing I got from checking the matter out online is, you have to try it yourself to find out. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject.

F1nut

Do you have an example of a reputable speaker with dual posts that does not have discrete hi/lo sections because I've never heard of such a thing.

bthogan

F1nut wrote: »

Do you have an example of a reputable speaker with dual posts that does not have discrete hi/lo sections because I've never heard of such a thing.

I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood your earlier statement. When you said that "any speaker with dual posts is built for bi-wiring", I thought you were saying that the internals didn't matter. While I was reading up on the subject, I read a number of things that suggested that "manufacturers" (none were specified) were putting dual posts on speakers that didn't need them, or couldn't use them, which I took to mean that these speakers didn't have discrete internals. I also saw some folks who said that speakers without discrete internals could still benefit from bi-wiring. I certainly didn't mean to slander any manufacturers - I was just lazily repeating what I'd read online. Once again, I learn that direct knowledge - including actual evidence of dual-post speakers w/out discrete internals - is the only way to go about discussing these things.

Chris Pilgrim

F1nut wrote: »

Yep. If you had replaced the stock jumpers with high quality wire you'd get the same results you're getting from bi-wiring.

Is bi-wiring different from bi-amping. You seemed negative on bi-amping in your response to my thread.

Hermitism

Chris Pilgrim wrote: »

Is bi-wiring different from bi-amping.

Yes.

Here is an example of my bi-wire cables. It only connects to one positive and one negative terminal on the amp/avr end. My speakers happen to have four binding posts, hence the four ends (two +, two -) on the speaker end. Originally, I was going to have Doug make me some matching jumpers, but it was cheaper to go with a bi-wire configuration which eliminated the jumpers.

Hermitism

You see, it has four conductors. It's like having two sets of cables running to one speaker. Bi-wire.

bthogan

F1nut wrote: »

Yep. If you had replaced the stock jumpers with high quality wire you'd get the same results you're getting from bi-wiring.

Just wanted to check in (again) and say that using single cables, and putting cable between posts in place of stock jumpers, has also had an amazing effect on sound quality. I used a few short lengths of Blue Jeans 10 gauge (same as my amp-to-speaker cables). Might even be more "coherent". Thanks very much for suggestion.

Not sure if I'm gonna go back to two sets. I'm at least gonna give it another listen after I listen to this setup for a bit.

F1nut

Chris Pilgrim wrote: »

Is bi-wiring different from bi-amping. You seemed negative on bi-amping in your response to my thread.

As noted, yes they are different. I'm sorry, but I don't recall your thread. Did you ask about bi-amping with an AVR?

F1nut

bthogan wrote: »

Just wanted to check in (again) and say that using single cables, and putting cable between posts in place of stock jumpers, has also had an amazing effect on sound quality. I used a few short lengths of Blue Jeans 10 gauge (same as my amp-to-speaker cables). Might even be more "coherent". Thanks very much for suggestion.

Not sure if I'm gonna go back to two sets. I'm at least gonna give it another listen after I listen to this setup for a bit.

You are welcome.