Good starter turntable for the vinyl experience?

msg · May 2014

Hey guys,
I'm a little curious to try out a few of my favorite albums on vinyl.
[Is it really worth it over the full res digital version?]

Since this is more to satisfy/engage a curiosity, I'm probably looking to buy something used, but of good quality that will still net me a good warm vinyl experience.

do you guys have any recommendations on a good turntable? I don't have a particular budget figure in mind, but the words to describe the budget would be - practical & affordable; value.

should I be looking for something direct drive, or belt? and why?

soundfreak1 · May 2014

We need a budget too help... you can spend 50.00 to 500.00 and still be in the entry level catorgory. A used techblnics on cl can be had for 50+-. Do you have a phono input to your amp or pre????? Need more info too help you.

msg · May 2014

nbrowser wrote: »

I dunno, I just have an Audio Technica AT60LP USB (think that's the model) it's entry level, but does have a normal phono output or preamp out (switchable) is belt driven but is real budget friendly. Won't win awards with it but it'll work for a start.

just checked that model out. thanks man, pretty cool that you can connect to computer for recording...

soundfreak1 wrote: »

We need a budget too help... you can spend 50.00 to 500.00 and still be in the entry level catorgory. A used techblnics on cl can be had for 50+-. Do you have a phono input to your amp or pre????? Need more info too help you.

okay, call it $300 at the high end, but I'd rather find something decent for less. I'm not huge into vinyl at this point, so I'm just looking for something that can let me see whether I'll experience the "vinyl magic" without getting ridiculous. I'm not out to repurchase my music collection again, probably just a handful of albums if it turns out to be worth it, so this doesn't need to be top shelf, just better/warmer/more relaxing than cd if that can be had. again, a gnawing curiosity at this point.
I do have phono input.
someone recommended the Technics 1200 something or other.

what's the deal with belt vs direct drive? is one preferable to the other?

we used to have an old Technics SL-B2 in the house when I was a kid. be cool to have something kinda like that to pay hommage to the parents. (I think my brother ruined it)

mhardy6647 · May 2014

The problem with today's good quality entry level turntables is that they're rather minimalistic (e.g., fully manual). I could see this as a bit off-putting to someone who's truly a tyro.

For that reason (and that reason only!), dollar for dollar, I'd suggest a used, vintage turntable. The big risk with a decades-old turntable is... mechanical stuff (bearings, belts) wear out. The upside is the late 1970s were a pinnacle for engineering and production of user-friendly, good performing and well made mass-market record players.

For a true neophyte, it would be hard to beat something like a Technics SL-D2... a basic, good performing and decently made semiautomatic, direct drive turntable. Perhaps not coincidentally, my daily driver is a Technics SL-Q2 (the slightly better built, "quartzlock" cousin of the D2). These stout tts aren't the last word in anything, but they are solid, dependable, good performing and virtually foolproof. Many, many other, basically similar options from all of the big names... some less in demand (and therefore cheaper) today -- but still perfectly good.

If you go this route - buy local! Approximately 97.7%* of all eBAY sellers have no idea how to pack a tt to survive shipping.

white vinyl by mhardy6647, on Flickr

* Did you know that 68% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

mhardy6647 · May 2014

yeah, I know -- it's the build quality that makes me loath to suggest the current production A-T tts (again, on an overall value per dollar spent basis).

I will agree that it ain't junk, though.

... and, in fairness, buying used turntables is always a crapshoot... so it is a double-edged sword.

chumlie · May 2014

Check out the Audio Technica AT-LP120. In your price range and a nice step up from the 60.

soundfreak1 · May 2014

With 300.00 or even less you can easley get into a decent starter table and good cartridge like the shure m97xe 70/80.00 new a decent used technics table 100.00 or so. This would give you a good idea as to what vinly is all about
I do suggest a simi auto or fully auto table as mentioned, easier to start with. Enjoy your vinyl it is a pleasure to hear anolog sound.

msg · May 2014

excellent! thanks! I do like the idea of used/vintage simply for quality/performance/sq, as long as it's not something that's hard to find parts for or is difficult to work with. I'm starting to see notes about tuning and adjustments and have no idea what this stuff's about yet, pitch and all that?

mhardy6647 wrote: »

The problem with today's good quality entry level turntables is that they're rather minimalistic (e.g., fully manual). I could see this as a bit off-putting to someone who's truly a tyro.

For that reason (and that reason only!), dollar for dollar, I'd suggest a used, vintage turntable. The big risk with a decades-old turntable is... mechanical stuff (bearings, belts) wear out. The upside is the late 1970s were a pinnacle for engineering and production of user-friendly, good performing and well made mass-market record players.

For a true neophyte, it would be hard to beat something like a Technics SL-D2... a basic, good performing and decently made semiautomatic, direct drive turntable. Perhaps not coincidentally, my daily driver is a Technics SL-Q2 (the slightly better built, "quartzlock" cousin of the D2). These stout tts aren't the last word in anything, but they are solid, dependable, good performing and virtually foolproof. Many, many other, basically similar options from all of the big names... some less in demand (and therefore cheaper) today -- but still perfectly good.

If you go this route - buy local! Approximately 97.7%* of all eBAY sellers have no idea how to pack a tt to survive shipping.

is an aluminum platter desirable? I presume this is the spinny thing? is this because it holds momentum better than plastic would?

nbrowser wrote: »

Er the one I suggested is new...and full auto...albeit belt drive with at least an aluminum platter with soft mat! Hehe

yes, I saw this model after checking out the one NB recommended. these both look pretty nice. thanks for this recommendation!

chumlie wrote: »

Check out the Audio Technica AT-LP120. In your price range and a nice step up from the 60.

so, parts for older units. I would presume that I should potentially factor in the cost for a new stylus/cartridge if I pick up something used? Audio-technica seems like a name. is this where I'd look for stylus/cartridge replacements?

I'm probably only going to pick up a handful of my favorite albums on vinyl if I delve into this. I don't know, there's just something that seems relaxing about kicking back and listening to a record. when I was a kid I hated records, and as I got older, thought them the least desirable medium because they were "fragile", weren't portable and were "noisier" than cassette, and then cds came out and seemed to offer the best overall in terms of sq, longevity, and portability. I did like records better than 8-track though when I was a kid, since all I ever did was listen to one or two songs over and over again, so it was more convenient. plus, it was interactive, and I enjoyed watching the mechanical bits working.

audiocr381ve · May 2014

mhardy6647 wrote: »

The problem with today's good quality entry level turntables is that they're rather minimalistic (e.g., fully manual). I could see this as a bit off-putting to someone who's truly a tyro.

For that reason (and that reason only!), dollar for dollar, I'd suggest a used, vintage turntable. The big risk with a decades-old turntable is... mechanical stuff (bearings, belts) wear out. The upside is the late 1970s were a pinnacle for engineering and production of user-friendly, good performing and well made mass-market record players.

For a true neophyte, it would be hard to beat something like a Technics SL-D2... a basic, good performing and decently made semiautomatic, direct drive turntable. Perhaps not coincidentally, my daily driver is a Technics SL-Q2 (the slightly better built, "quartzlock" cousin of the D2). These stout tts aren't the last word in anything, but they are solid, dependable, good performing and virtually foolproof. Many, many other, basically similar options from all of the big names... some less in demand (and therefore cheaper) today -- but still perfectly good.

If you go this route - buy local! Approximately 97.7%* of all eBAY sellers have no idea how to pack a tt to survive shipping.

I second the Technics SL-D2. It's a solid table and sounded great to my ears. It never gave me any issues until the wife broke it.

mhardy6647 · May 2014

generally, heavier is better for the platter (the "flywheel effect" helps to smooth its operation) - well balanced and as round and 'true' as possible is a key for good performance. There are different schools of thought as to the 'best' material for the platter - aluminum or alloys are common, but so are certain plastics (acrylic and Delrin, e.g.) and also glass. Some of the current entry-level 'audiophile' tts use MDF (medium density fiberboard, also used for speaker cabinets) as the basis of their platters.

a good resource for all things vinyl is www.vinylengine.com (free registration required to download the copious content available at the site).

msg · May 2014

audiocr381ve wrote: »

I second the Technics SL-D2. It's a solid table and sounded great to my ears. It never gave me any issues until the wife broke it.

cool, yeah, I like this one, and it looks similar to the one I think we had when I was a kid.

mhardy6647 wrote: »

generally, heavier is better for the platter (the "flywheel effect" helps to smooth its operation) - well balanced and as round and 'true' as possible is a key for good performance. There are different schools of thought as to the 'best' material for the platter - aluminum or alloys are common, but so are certain plastics (acrylic and Delrin, e.g.) and also glass. Some of the current entry-level 'audiophile' tts use MDF (medium density fiberboard, also used for speaker cabinets) as the basis of their platters.

a good resource for all things vinyl is www.vinylengine.com (free registration required to download the copious content available at the site).

flywheel effect - yes, makes sense.
thanks for that link!

hey, check this out... http://raleigh.craigslist.org/ele/4440019805.html
this guy's not too far from me.
is that the SL-D2 in the second pic?
what would be a fair price for one of these?

deafbykhorns · May 2014

I think you would be happy with the pace of any direct drive table
The technics has some bearing mods available which is an improvement

msg · May 2014

Keiko wrote: »

I'd go with this vs the Audio Technica PL120.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/850003-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_LP1240USB_AT_LP1240_USB_Professional_DJ_Direct_Drive.html

woh, that's pretty feature rich.

deafbykhorns wrote: »

I think you would be happy with the pace of any direct drive table
The technics has some bearing mods available which is an improvement

cool, thanks. yeah, I think I'm gathering that most prefer direct drive?

mhardy6647 · May 2014

I actually prefer belt drive; but there's something to be said (in terms of end-user-friendliness) for a decently-implemented direct drive (i.e., no belt to wear out!). There can be, of course, lots more to go wrong in a DD tt -- but the failures are most likely to be electronic... and catastrophic.

If you can, before plunking down the cash, check out the physical quality of those current production A-Ts (which are AFAIK Chinese-sourced SL-1200 clones) vs. a 1970s era, Japanese made tt of similar design. If you're satisfied, I would recommend buying new (if just to avoid the "unknown unknowns" of buying a decades-old component of unknown history).

FYI: some interesting discussions on the current crop of Chinese-made 'DJ style' turntables (offered strictly "as is" and FWIW, I think I steered clear of posting to most of these):

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=520749
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=554885&highlight=chinese

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...

msg · May 2014

so in that photo above? Audio-technica on the left, and a Technics on the right? is this the Chinese vs Japanese you detail?
interesting. I do like the Technics design, so I guess it makes sense that I also like the A-T, as well. I didn't realize they were 1200 clones.

been looking around locally for something vintage.
these new A-T's do look pretty nice, though, and you make a good point about condition/parts.

can anyone with an A-T able to comment on the build quality? does it feel heavy/sturdy? is the body metal too?

so, what are the benefits in a brand/model like a Thorens or higher end turntable? or is this subjective? just curious. not really an option.

mhardy6647 · May 2014

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I actually prefer belt drive; but there's something to be said (in terms of end-user-friendliness) for a decently-implemented direct drive (i.e., no belt to wear out!). There can be, of course, lots more to go wrong in a DD tt -- but the failures are most likely to be electronic... and catastrophic.

If you can, before plunking down the cash, check out the physical quality of those current production A-Ts (which are AFAIK Chinese-sourced SL-1200 clones) vs. a 1970s era, Japanese made tt of similar design. If you're satisfied, I would recommend buying new (if just to avoid the "unknown unknowns" of buying a decades-old component of unknown history).

FYI: some interesting discussions on the current crop of Chinese-made 'DJ style' turntables (offered strictly "as is" and FWIW, I think I steered clear of posting to most of these):

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=520749
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=554885&highlight=chinese

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...

Yes, correct: A-T on the Left, Technics on the Right.

http://www.audio-technica.com/cgi-bin/product_search/turntables/turntables.pl
Take a look at the AT-LP120.

msg · May 2014

nbrowser wrote: »

eh my AT-LP60 USB is a plastic base, belt drive, with a fairly light aluminum platter, think I paid $130 for it new a while back at Best Buy, but think of it this way. If your just getting back in to vinyl and it's not for you, your not out a ton of cash and get a half decent sounding table new if you can scope out a good price. Plus it's full auto which is nice and has the switchable phono/line output if one doesn't have a phono input. Plus it'll hook up to a computer to "rip" records to MP3 (I haven't done this nor will I). Plus Audio Technica has replacement carts if you wear it out. Haven't seen the AT-LP120 in person so can't comment but I assume it's got a few things up on the 60 that improve it a touch or three.

thanks man, yeah, you make some good points. I'm finding so far that it's difficult/expensive to find the records I'm after. gonna go talk to the guys at a couple of local record shops this week, but so far, the first couple of albums I looked for range from $50 - $400! so unless the local guys can get me better more affordable access somehow, this project is gonna be side-burnered pretty quick. I've only got two "real" records right now - special issue gifts - and maybe in storage some old 45's, couple of K-tel compilations, and a MJ Thriller album from 5th grade that I tried to learn to scratch with (that story above about my brother breaking the Technics... I might have tweaked that a little bit) - point being, not much to justify this project at this point.

mhardy6647 · May 2014

msg - get yourself a nice tt and I'll send you a care package of albums to help get you started! :-)

That AT-LP60 looks pretty... nominal. It also looks like a zero-offset tonearm (which doesn't seem to bode well for its tracking accuracy and/or how kindly it treats records).

I don't know for sure, so I'll defer to nbrowser, since he's got one.

mhardy6647 · May 2014

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a straight arm per se,,, but I think that the headshell is designed with no offset at all -- great for scratchin', not so much for listenin'.
If you're not hearing any mistracking distortion, though -- I guess that the stylus alignment is close enough for Government work (as they say)!

nspindel · May 2014

Ugh. Scratching..... The bain of a serious vinylphile's existence.

I brought home my new VPI table with a Grado Sonata cartridge. Put my 1st press British mono Sgt. Pepper on, freshly steamed and cleaned on my vacuum machine, and called my son over to hear it. He was 17 at the time. He says "Cool, can I scratch with it?" And then he starts reaching his hand towards the record. "NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!"

EndersShadow · May 2014

If you had a SL-B2 as a kid, why not just look for one on CL.

To me CL is where look for some decent TT's but wait it out a bit so you dont overpay. I have a SL-B3 sitting in my closet till I get it a new belt, but found it to be perfect for starting out.

I may need to upgrade the cart at some point, but for now its perfect.

If it "has" to be newer I would look for a used Pro-Ject TT (Debut or Carbon if you can find em) or one of the Rega into level models. Wont have all the bells and whistles, but should be good enough for ya.

jeremymarcinko · May 2014

I think the the Pro-ject Debut is a nice table and can be had for around $300 new. I have the one with the Carbon tonearm (+$100) and it does everything pretty well. The A-T 120 is a good table for the money, it is a quality build,very heavy, with an okay entry cart. It will give you the " vinyl experience" but isn't really up-gradable, should you want more from it later. It has a nice feature set, given the price point. The flaws of the 120 are revealed upon upgrading the cartridge. Motor/drive noise can become more apparent as well as speed inconsistencies. It can be found frequently at or around $200 and at that price point it would be hard to beat.

I will advise that you avoid the Music Hall USB-1 at all cost. It is similar to the a-t120 and similar in price, but absolute junk.

mhardy6647 · May 2014

the SL-B2 will need a new belt (unless already installed) and it will most likely need the speed range adjustment pots (inside the 'plinth') cleaned or it won't hold speed. In fairness, the DD Technics may have similar woes after three-ish decades.

The Pro-Ject is fine, but it's just not IMO a great tt for a true neophyte. The A-T's cartridge is, I'm sure, no great shakes... but it is, in fact, readily "upgradeable".

mrbiron · May 2014

I currently have the AT120 and as a starter table, im happy. Heavy build, fairly easy to set up as a beginner, and sounds decent out of the box. I scrapped the supplied cart for a Shure and no longer use the onboard phono. As far as "ripping", I haven't tried it.

I'm curious as to what a "more expensive" table can do but as it stands right now, I'm content with what I have...............for now. I see a Rega in my future.

maximillian · May 2014

msg wrote: »

[Is it really worth it over the full res digital version?]

Since this is more to satisfy/engage a curiosity, I'm probably looking to buy something used, but of good quality that will still net me a good warm vinyl experience.

Worth it? That's a hard question. I recently got into vinyl because I inherited an old collection. So enjoying them obviously required a setup which I put together rather inexpensively using Craigslist. My table is a Technics SL-1360. It had a pretty nice AT cart with a Shibata needle.

The biggest problem for me is enjoying records with all the snaps and pops. That is the biggest deterrent. I bought a Spin Clean and then moved to a DIY vacuum system. I bought several records off of Ebay of records from my childhood (classic 80's records). Many simply had too many pops to enjoy even after a thorough cleaning. This is for records labeled as VG+, NM, or EX. I spent a lot of time researching cleaning chemicals too. Some records obtained from the Salvation Army and here (Thanks George G.) sound great and only have the occasional pop. But these good finds are overshadowed by the bad.

I just bought a second disappointing copy of Police Synchronicity from eBay. Both labeled EX and both are just not enjoyable due to all the snaps and pops. Fortunately one of the sellers refunded the complete order because He said "visually" EX when there were obvious scratches. Seller had several thousand feedback rating at 100% too. You would think he would know better.

So I am sticking to playing the collection I have and buying only records not available as downloads or CD. Still, the sound quality is very good and it's fun to put on a record and just let it play all the tracks without interruption. With a digital library, it's too easy to skip the less popular tracks and thus you lose an appreciation for the way the album was put together.

mhardy6647 · May 2014

nbrowser wrote: »

hrm it is kinked in a bit in the headshell itself, not perfectly straight...I can take a pic of my table's arm close up...no wait I'll do it...fuzzy mat shifted for clarity against the platter's bare aluminum.

Here!

ahh, OK -- sorry, I missed this post... and I couldn't tell from photos on-line. The headshell does have at least some offset, then... so, yeah... it should be capable of tracking with reasonable accuracy. Thanks for posting that!

Good starter turntable for the vinyl experience?

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