Will Polk Audio RTi A7 output good sound with DENON X3000 and Bi-Amplified?

FernandoTorres

Hi all, this is my first post here.
I live in Argentina, here any HiFi driver costs about 2 times USA price, and sometimes even more. Its not easy for me to afford a HiFi setup, so I must be 100% sure and plan it to stay with same setup for many years.
In Argentina we do not have refund option, and it is not easy at all to listen a demo on several models.

My living is 4,3 x 3,3 metres, and I live at my own appartment, so the same living for a long time.
I have heavy curtains, and central carpet.

I already have a DENON X3000 (I could buy it same price USA). It is 95watts at 8ohms and 7.1 but I only care 5.1, so bi-amp is a nice opcion. 5.1 will be 60% music, and 40% movies.

I do care about sound quality, so I would prefere RTi line, instead TSi.

Will DENON X3000 make a good job with Polk RTi A7?? Bi-Amp??

Are Polk RTi A7 really too big for my living?? of course at high volume, but Im not interesting on listen them at the highest volume. So my idea is to have floor standers (some great ones really) & use them at moderate levels..

Thanks a lot..!!!

FernandoTorres

nbrowser wrote: »

As a RTiA7 owner and moving up the power chain, I can honestly say, 95 watts is honestly not enough, I started with a 120 watt per channel receiver and it wasn't enough even at moderate volumes, it wasn't until I hit 205 watts per channel with a ton of current that they came alive. This is personal experience take as you wish. But I'll make this suggestion, why not give the RTiA5 a shot with a powered sub to back them up to take the load off the receiver ? They are quite good towers and hit nicely but would benefit from a subwoofer added to anchor the low end.

By the way, Welcome to Club Polk!

Thanks for you response. RTiA5 + SW is also one of my options, but only if RTiA7 wont be good for my amp and room. My amp is 7.1 so I can bi-amp RTiA7 105w x 2 = 210w, right? that will be enough?

FernandoTorres

Sorry... I made a mistake... a beautifull mistake... my DENON X3000 si 105w at 8ohms per channel
since it is 7.2, and I only want 5.1, so I can bi-amb 105w x 2 = 210w... that would be fine?

DENON X3000
http://usa.denon.com/us/product/pages/productdetail.aspx?catalog=denonna_us&pcatid=avsolutions(denonna)&catid=avreceivers(denonna)&pid=avrx3000(denonna)

Inspector 24

Something something Bi Amping doesn't do anything something something...

The idea is the size of your power transformer is really what determines how much power your speakers will get. That of course is fixed in your AVR. Add to the fact that most AVR's rated power is driving ONE channel, add a second channel and you're loosing what, 15% of that rating? So now two channels is what, 80wpc? Now get the other three channels going, maybe good for 50wpc?

Long story short, you will be happier with more power via separates. However if that AVR has pre-outs it may be a good platform to start with.

F1nut

The answer to your bi-amp question is still no. To start with, it is not actually bi-amping. Next as mentioned, the more channels you use the less power per channel the AVR will provide. So, the Denon is rated at 105wpc with 2 channels driven. By the time it is driving 7 channels it could be providing much less, perhaps 70wpc or lower.

One of the better AVR's on the market are the Pioneer Elite, which will drive 5 channels at the rated wpc and drop slightly driving 7 channels. However, the same no answer to the bi-amp idea.

Your room is on the small side, so I think the RTiA5 + SW is the better choice. What will you use for the center and rear speakers?

Inspector 24

Your room is on the small side, so I think the RTiA5 + SW is the better choice.

I'll second that.

devani

I agree as well.....your room is 14x12ft, my living room is 13x19 with kitchen of same size and I feel it's too small for me....I have the bookshelf verison of RTia7 which is RTi6 and subwoofer is plenty for me....

FernandoTorres

OK... so bi-amp on AVR is not x2 a single channel... but.. biamp 70wpc x2 = 140wpc is still better than 105wpc, right?

I realice that depending on the country same DENON X3000 is not the same....
***110v has FM/AM radio, 2 PreOuts for zone 2, 2 PreOuts for SW.
***220v has FM radio, 2 PreOuts for zone 2, 2 PreOuts for SW, and FULL PreOuts.
Unfortunatelly, I do not remember what version I have, it is still boxed and at another home, since Im painting my department. I will check it this weekend.

my use will be 60% music, 40% movies... so center and surrounds -in furute- will be same RTi line but the smallest version of each (CSiA4 and RTiA1 maybe FXiA4). Paing attention to what you all said, having "small" center and surrounds would help to have more power on mains columns, right?

Does RTiA5 have good bass for stereo? later I will buy a SW, but I would like my columns to have excellent sound by themself

Really thanks for your help

gudnoyez

You already have the Denon X3000 will it be enough power for the A7s no it won't be enough running a 5.1 with A7s as your fronts. What center channel and rears will you be running? I would get the A5s for fronts with a sub with that AVR you would want a external amp to run with the A7s with the money you save by getting the A5s you could use that towards a sub.

F1nut

OK... so bi-amp on AVR is not x2 a single channel... but.. biamp 70wpc x2 = 140wpc is still better than 105wpc, right?

No, it doesn't work like that. Let's say 70wpc with all channels driven is accurate. Ok so, it appears you would get 140wpc, but that is being split. The tweeter gets 70 and the woofer(s) get 70, but that 70 going to the tweeter is completely wasted as it will only use say 5 watts. So, now instead the woofer(s) getting a possible 100 watts to play with they will only get 70. That's a quick example, but I think you'll get the idea.

my use will be 60% music, 40% movies... so center and surrounds -in furute- will be same RTi line but the smallest version of each (CSiA4 and RTiA1 maybe FXiA4). Paing attention to what you all said, having "small" center and surrounds would help to have more power on mains columns, right?

The center is the most important speaker in an HT set up, so you want the biggest, the CSiA6. The power idea isn't quite right either.

Does RTiA5 have good bass for stereo? later I will buy a SW, but I would like my columns to have excellent sound by themself

It's ok, but not like the 7's or 9's. Regardless of the speakers keep in mind that good, tight bass requires power (current) and AVR's just don't have it. However, since the RTiA5 doesn't have as many woofers to drive an AVR will do a better job with them than the 7's or 9's.

gudnoyez

The A5s have two mids and the power port so they will be easier to drive than the A7s but your going to want a sub with the A5s but since your 60 percent music get the A7s and a 3 channel amp to drive your fronts, if it was the other way around get the A5s.

Inspector 24

When I only had a 140wpc Yamaha AVR things sounded much better with just the RT800i's, also a single tweet double 6.5" woofer arrangement with two 12" subs. The bigger, better A9's actually sounded worse until I got proper power going to them. I'd suspect the story wouldn't be much different with the A7's.

FernandoTorres

Thank you all for your responces, they really help me.

Well everyone says the same... RTi A5 is the one to go for!!

Does anyone knows when you bi-amp A5/A7, if mid-bass driver goes with tweeter amp or bass amp?? Is there any way to know that looking at specs?

If I choose RTi A5, which would be the right SW? (60%music, 40%movies)... SVS are just for movies right?

Thanks again, I really apreciate your time.

FernandoTorres

As far as I know, Polk Audio RTi line is much better than Monitor Audio Bronze BX6 line, and equivalent to Klipch RF 62, right?

FernandoTorres

F1nut wrote: »

No, it doesn't work like that. Let's say 70wpc with all channels driven is accurate. Ok so, it appears you would get 140wpc, but that is being split. The tweeter gets 70 and the woofer(s) get 70, but that 70 going to the tweeter is completely wasted as it will only use say 5 watts. So, now instead the woofer(s) getting a possible 100 watts to play with they will only get 70. That's a quick example, but I think you'll get the idea.

Thanks, I got it now.
Do you know when you bi-amp A5/A7, if mid-bass driver goes with tweeter amp or bass amp?? Is there any way to know that looking at specs?

F1nut wrote: »

The center is the most important speaker in an HT set up, so you want the biggest, the CSiA6. The power idea isn't quite right either.

This is the second time I hear that, ok I will do it.

THANKS!!

gudnoyez

I own the A5's and the A3s you can run dual subs with that Denon believe me you will be happy with the A5s, if you get the A3s as rears and the csi a4 or csi a6 as your center you will be ok you will always be able to add a separate amp down the road especially if you choose the csi a6. Oh yeah forget no bi amping with that Denon if you have got the X4000 you would of been better off if you could exchange the 3000 for the 4000 you really would not have any worries. Have fun and enjoy!

Inspector 24

IF, if if if (emphasis on IF) you were truly bi-amping as in using two separate amplifiers to power A7's the tweet and mid would be on one amp with the two woofers on the other.

For A5's I believe the tweet would be on one amp and the two mids on the other.

Sound right guys?

Fongolio

I have owned a set of A7's for several years. I've used them with AVR's and with several amplifiers. They sound nice but not remarkable with any AVR I've had them on (Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, Denon), but they really shine when used with a stand alone amp. I've played them with two different Carver amps, a Hafler, my Eico tube integrated and several smaller amps. They always sound fantastic when with a stand alone amp and good with any receiver I've tried them on. Great bottom end when given enough clean power. And just like my SDA-1C's, the RTIA7's sound awesome with the Eico tube amp. They now do duty in my home theater setup as the fronts with a CSi-40 center.

Inspector 24

Sure, it's possible, get them hook them up and see.

FernandoTorres

Fongolio wrote: »

I have owned a set of A7's for several years. I've used them with AVR's and with several amplifiers. They sound nice but not remarkable with any AVR I've had them on (Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, Denon), but they really shine when used with a stand alone amp. I've played them with two different Carver amps, a Hafler, my Eico tube integrated and several smaller amps. They always sound fantastic when with a stand alone amp and good with any receiver I've tried them on. Great bottom end when given enough clean power. And just like my SDA-1C's, the RTIA7's sound awesome with the Eico tube amp. They now do duty in my home theater setup as the fronts with a CSi-40 center.

Thanks.... as I was said above, my AVR DENON X3000 7.1 105wpc, seems not match A7's...
So A5's seems my best option between Polk line.

FernandoTorres

FernandoTorres wrote: »

I realice that depending on the country same DENON X3000 is not the same....
***110v has FM/AM radio, 2 PreOuts for zone 2, 2 PreOuts for SW.
***220v has FM radio, 2 PreOuts for zone 2, 2 PreOuts for SW, and FULL PreOuts.

Unfortunatelly... mine is 110v... so... no Full PreOuts (just zone 2 and sw). I dont know why DENON X3000 for USA/Canada market does not have it, meanwhile 220v market has.

Now also I must buy a good 220v/110v converter.

don0

Inspector 24 wrote: »

Something something Bi Amping doesn't do anything something something...

The idea is the size of your power transformer is really what determines how much power your speakers will get. That of course is fixed in your AVR. Add to the fact that most AVR's rated power is driving ONE channel, add a second channel and you're loosing what, 15% of that rating? So now two channels is what, 80wpc? Now get the other three channels going, maybe good for 50wpc?

Long story short, you will be happier with more power via separates. However if that AVR has pre-outs it may be a good platform to start with.

If the above is true, why does the manufacturers advertise the receiver as being 105 X 7 watts?

F1nut

Because in theory each channel is capable of that, just not all at the same time.

tonyb

F1nut wrote: »

Because in theory each channel is capable of that, just not all at the same time.

Bingo....and simply put.

In reality though, is any manufacturers claims in any product taken at face value ? Kinda also reminds me of that old advertisement for toothpaste....." 4 out 5 Dentist recommends....". What about that 5th guy ? You never hear about that 5th guy.

leftwinger57

Fernando, I would stop arguing or debating w/ these guys about your facactta biamping idea. It does not work or does not work well. If you insist then buy whatever AVR you can buy in Argentina and pay 2/3x times as much and watch it either provide little listening pleasure or smoke coming from said avr. If your AVR has pre-outs this is the way to go if running high demand speakers and you want everything out of them. I was in your place 5/6 years ago, got a 90 wpc Yamaha RX-V665 and when I tried to let it rip it went into protection mode. It came back, and after advise here got a stand alone seperate Adcom amplifier w/200wpc and the Yamaha NEVER even got warm. Then I went to all seperates. Listen to these guys, I think I SAID THAT ALREADY....

FernandoTorres

Finnally I have a pair of RTi A7s... yeah I know, they are too big for my room but I could not resist buging them... next step... wires and banana plugs, and a trafo from 220v to 110v to the amp. I still have them boxed... I cant wait, but my budget is tight
Thanks to all

polk500

Hello Fernando,

Enjoy your A7's (I love mine)and be careful with the volume don't turn it up too loud or you're going to clip the tweeters.

Cheers
Roger

Sprags

Not trying to hijack this thread but I listen mostly to jazz and when I listen to other music it's certainly at AC/DC BACK in Black concert tour volume levels. I know it's been said that RTia7's need lots of power and it seems no way that Yamaha CA-2010 power won't cut it according to most. Are you guys sure it won't for small ensemble type jazz?

How about biamped with two 60 wpc tube amps?

I really think I'd like the speaker and I'm thinking if the 100 wpc SS amp won't cut it two tube amps like the one I have will

pyrocyborg

Sprags wrote: »

Not trying to hijack this thread but I listen mostly to jazz and when I listen to other music it's certainly at AC/DC BACK in Black concert tour volume levels. I know it's been said that RTia7's need lots of power and it seems no way that Yamaha CA-2010 power won't cut it according to most. Are you guys sure it won't for small ensemble type jazz?

How about biamped with two 60 wpc tube amps?

I really think I'd like the speaker and I'm thinking if the 100 wpc SS amp won't cut it two tube amps like the one I have will

Whatever the music type, what you're looking at it the maximum volume that will be played. Some pieces (like orchestra) can have incredible dB peaks, and thus, requires a lot of power to play at reference level. Also, keep in mind that for each increase of 3dB in volume, you'll need twice the power. So, if, for example, you're listening to music at 95 dB, you could need 8-50w (or more) depending on the sensitibity of your speaker. In the case of RTiA7, they would probably require about 10w depending on your room and how bass heavy the passages are: however, music is dynamic and not static. Thus, volume changes, goes up and down and power requirements will vary too depending on the amount of bass and particular frequencies played, crossover design, etc. Some frequencies make a 8 ohm speaker dip way under 4 ohms and that is one of the reason why some receivers struggle even if they are "100wpc".

Also, by the time you reach tour volume level, you'll need at the very least 150w to be able to play at 105dB (excluding peaks... which will require an amp with dynamic headroom) and to play at 120 dB, you'll probably need something in the 4000W range. Also, you do not want to go that high in dB. I mean, less than a minute at 120 dB willl permanently impair your hearing. Even 105 dB is dangerous for more than 5 minutes. A "secure" volume level is less than 85 dB which you can listen for more than 8 hours a day without impairment.

Anyways, playing at 85-90 dB isn't particularly hard on any amplifier except if you're sitting far away from the speakers, but for each 3dB increase, you'll double the power demand. It goes up pretty fast. Reaching concert level requires a tremendeous amount of power and-or a very very sensitive speaker (98dB @ 1w and up).

Long answer short: no, you need a lot of power and most affordable tube amps will never reach that amount of power. Even if you bi-amp using two 60w tube amps, you'll have a "120w" worth of possible power to your speakers, which is 20w more than your SS ... meaning it would increase the volume by, let's say, 0.6 dB which isn't that much, but still, you'll be able to reach 100 dB if the material you're listening to isn't of the dynamic kind (e.g. orchestra). And even there, it could make no difference as the woofer requires way more power than the tweeter or midrange: maybe your woofers would require 100w and the rest, 20w... I don't know! Bi-amping is not allways the solution when it comes to raw power, especially when you're biamping with lower powered amplifiers.

FernandoTorres

pyrocyborg wrote: »

Whatever the music type, what you're looking at it the maximum volume that will be played. Some pieces (like orchestra) can have incredible dB peaks, and thus, requires a lot of power to play at reference level. Also, keep in mind that for each increase of 3dB in volume, you'll need twice the power. So, if, for example, you're listening to music at 95 dB, you could need 8-50w (or more) depending on the sensitibity of your speaker. In the case of RTiA7, they would probably require about 10w depending on your room and how bass heavy the passages are: however, music is dynamic and not static. Thus, volume changes, goes up and down and power requirements will vary too depending on the amount of bass and particular frequencies played, crossover design, etc. Some frequencies make a 8 ohm speaker dip way under 4 ohms and that is one of the reason why some receivers struggle even if they are "100wpc".

Also, by the time you reach tour volume level, you'll need at the very least 150w to be able to play at 105dB (excluding peaks... which will require an amp with dynamic headroom) and to play at 120 dB, you'll probably need something in the 4000W range. Also, you do not want to go that high in dB. I mean, less than a minute at 120 dB willl permanently impair your hearing. Even 105 dB is dangerous for more than 5 minutes. A "secure" volume level is less than 85 dB which you can listen for more than 8 hours a day without impairment.

Anyways, playing at 85-90 dB isn't particularly hard on any amplifier except if you're sitting far away from the speakers, but for each 3dB increase, you'll double the power demand. It goes up pretty fast. Reaching concert level requires a tremendeous amount of power and-or a very very sensitive speaker (98dB @ 1w and up).

Long answer short: no, you need a lot of power and most affordable tube amps will never reach that amount of power. Even if you bi-amp using two 60w tube amps, you'll have a "120w" worth of possible power to your speakers, which is 20w more than your SS ... meaning it would increase the volume by, let's say, 0.6 dB which isn't that much, but still, you'll be able to reach 100 dB if the material you're listening to isn't of the dynamic kind (e.g. orchestra). And even there, it could make no difference as the woofer requires way more power than the tweeter or midrange: maybe your woofers would require 100w and the rest, 20w... I don't know! Bi-amping is not allways the solution when it comes to raw power, especially when you're biamping with lower powered amplifiers.

Even it was not a reply to me, thanks a lot for shearing your knowledge

gudnoyez

FernandoTorres wrote: »

Finnally I have a pair of RTi A7s... yeah I know, they are too big for my room but I could not resist buging them... next step... wires and banana plugs, and a trafo from 220v to 110v to the amp. I still have them boxed... I cant wait, but my budget is tight
Thanks to all

Good for you glad to hear you got them, enjoy your A7s