Polk LSiM703 with a sub in moderate sized room

pyrocyborg

Hi!

I'm currently demoing a pair of LSiM705 in my L shaped living room (open area, about 450 sqft but the listening area itself is something like 28 x 12). I like how easier to drive they are compared to my old LSi7 and how "full" they sound too. A bit more detail which is great too.

However, to sound at their best, I must turn the volume up at the same point I did with my LSi7. The problem is that those towers reproduce a lot of bass: I mean, it's better than what my REL T3 could do in the same room (small sub, I know) and a lot more than I'm used to. While a lot of bass isn't something I would personnally frown upon, I must understand that my neighbours might think otherwise. I'm not the kind to crank it up at 90 dB, but to be able to hear every detail and have some punch, it must go past 75 dB or so. At this point, I think my neighbours could hear/feel the bass as it's the only thing our walls won't help with.

As my LSi7 had significantly less bass, it wasn't a problem to crank them up a little to make them more lively. They wouldn't be able to shake the walls. The biggest downside was the evident lack of bass and the innability to fill the living room. Don't get me wrong, the LSiM705 are exceptionnal at moderate volume, but I do not think they shine at low volume with my "cheap" integrated amp, at least in this crappy room (which I will leave soon... so they may be better in my next room).

So, maybe towers aren't for me, but maybe it's because of many factors including room, placement and amplifier power. Would the LSiM703 be enough on their own (without a subwoofer) in my future living room: a 11x14 room that opens to a 9x17 dinning room (no door)? I heard they have a bit more punch that the LSiM705 do, but I might be wrong.

tonyb

Think that little integrated isn't throwing enough juice at them at lower volumes. Also, that MF V-dac your using is throwing some cloud cover over the sound.

The 703 may be a better fit, easier to drive with that integrated, but I'd still look at another dac to replace the v-dac.

If you want something similar to the V-dac, but better....look at the Dragonfly 2 from Audioquest. Otherwise...cheap but good dacs abound. Cambridge Dacmagic....Cary Xciter....we even had a Benchmark dac 1 roll through the FM at a great price. All used of coarse but everyone is a few steps up from what your using.

pyrocyborg

Thanks for your reply! I mistyped somthing in my title... I would like to know if the LSiM703 might be a better fit even without a subwoofer.

pyrocyborg

Hi again. Well, I used a SPL meter (Android... so it probably only takes voice in consideration and probably isn't precise... so +/- 3dB at least) and it seems that the average "sound" would be around 65-68 dB @ 8 feet with peaks at 70, so my guess is that with bass and everything, it must at least be a 6dB higher. At that volume, the LSiM705 are incredible.

While it would be a great average volume in a house, I don't know if my neighbours hear it. Not that I would listen to music after 10 pm, but still... I don't wanna be rude . The best way to get an answer would be to ask them.

tonyb

The best way to find out is to play the music at levels you like....then walk outside towards your property line and listen. Then you'll know what they can hear.

aboroth00

Subwoofer gives you a lot more flexibility in terms of placement, EQ, and potential upgrades. Standmounts with small drivers won't punch with authority below 80hz and won't give you that midbass punch on dynamic music. With that size room, I would probably get a subwoofer regardless even with towers.

pyrocyborg

Nice suggestions. I turned the volume at "normal" listening volume and went in the hallway, I could hear the bass for sure even on "light" bass music. However, these walls aren't as thick as those that separates each unit, so, it's not as useful as I though it would be. I mean, when I'm in the hallway, I can hear my neighbours shouting and/or speaking, or the TV, but as soon as I close the door, I can't hear anything except some bass if there is any.

As for the room treatment, it probably would worth it to invest in some pannels but until I'm settled in my new appartment, I probably won't be doing it. As for pulling the speakers out a little bit, they're already 12-14 inches from the rear wall, and 7-8 feet from the side walls. However, right now, I can't pull them out more from the rear wall as they'll be in the way with the couch and everything. In my next appartment, the room will be large enough so they'll stick 24 inches from the wall and at least 36 from the side walls, depending on a few decisions. However, as it would be a living room dedicated to my system, I won't be limited as much as I am right now.

So, as far as I can see, it probably wouldn't be better with a pair of bookshelf without a sub (meaning I would need a sub). By the way, I watched a movie and let's say that even if it's stereo, sound was amazing. Bass was thundering and quite impressive despite having no subwoofer. The music was as good as it gets

Maybe I'll be fine with them. I just don't know if having a subwoofer would be the solution to the bass problem. Sure, I could turn the volume down a little bit, but still, it would probably dig deeper than what the LSiM705 already do...

pyrocyborg

Thanks DSkip, I'll try that as soon as I can!

Also, I know rear ported speakers can be tricky and that they need a lot of space. I mean, my LSi7 was great with 12 inches, but I'm sure a pair of LSi9 would need more. Likely, the LSiM703 will be the same than the LSi9 on this aspect.

I do like the fact that the LSiM705 are "bottom" firing speakers, but still, I'm sure they benefit from being as far from the walls as you can place them.

F1nut

The design of the rear Power Port allows one to place the Polks a lot closer to the rear wall than a regular rear ported speaker. I had the 703's about 6 inches off the back wall, worked just fine.

pyrocyborg

Thanks for the input F1nut. Glad to see they do not need that much space to sound good.

As for the LSiM705, one of my tweeter is clearly defective: there is a slight distorsion on some piano notes and woman's voice. When I first heard those distorted note, it sounded like if someone wasn't playing well enough and I said to myself that the LSiM705 was revealing enough but hearing distorsion in a woman's voice (movie) from the left channel only made me think otherwise.

Guess I'll have to replace this one and see if it does a difference. It might explain why it wasn't imaging right even when properly positionned... It always seemed the sound was coming a bit from the right.

F1nut

pyrocyborg wrote: »

As for the LSiM705, one of my tweeter is clearly defective: there is a slight distorsion on some piano notes and woman's voice. When I first heard those distorted note, it sounded like if someone wasn't playing well enough and I said to myself that the LSiM705 was revealing enough but hearing distorsion in a woman's voice (movie) from the left channel only made me think otherwise.

Guess I'll have to replace this one and see if it does a difference. It might explain why it wasn't imaging right even when properly positionned... It always seemed the sound was coming a bit from the right.

Swap the left and right speakers to see if the issue follows the speaker.

pyrocyborg

Yeah, it follows the speaker, so I guess my amp is fine. However, it's hard to say if it's the tweeter or the midrange, both seems to be off with those piano notes and women's voice in general.

DSkip: I thought, from what I read, that LSiM705 were kinda "easy" with placement as they didn't require to be 2-3 feet from the rear wall to sound good due to their down firing ports (but required space to sound best). However, it might be that they're more forgiving than most towers their size. If LSiM703 are both easier to drive and easier to position, I should give them a try.

Anyways, my next room will be smaller and more "typical": the listening area should be more confined to:

- a 11x14 living room (where speakers and couch are located)
- a 11x9 dinning room (where sound goes)
- a small kitchen, but there are cabinets in the way, probably partly acting as a wall

So, it will probably be easier to drive that in my (and I correct my current room measurements) 400 sqft oddly shaped room where the speakers are 8 feet from the listening position, but also 8 feet from each other and 8 feet from sidewalls (and only a feet from the back wall). I mean, it would roughly be a 300 sqft room at best, but it might be too much for a single pair of bookshelf speakers to display authoritative midbass, meaning I would probably need a quality subwoofer. However, I guess I got to try them... Too bad I sold my (cheap) stands: hard to try monitor/bookshelf speakers without any pair of stands!

Mikey081057

you could also send your 703's to trey for a little VR3 TLC...

A huge upgrade over the stock sound.... I don;t know if they will correct placement and room issues, but they sure perform great alla around

pyrocyborg

DSkip: do you think the LSiM705 might be too much for my 400 sqft L shaped-room (the room they're in right now) and that it might be why bass could seem to be a tad more than I would like to?

While both rooms are open area, the next one will probably be better for one thing: I could place the speakers 18 inches away from the 14 feet wall (and something like 30-32 inches away from the side walls). Even if the room is 22 feet long, I guess it's easier to position speakers like this than to to have them stick out 8 feet from the sidewalls and not more than 12 inches from the rear wall, but I might be wrong.

I've heard a lot of systems in "long" rooms with speakers 2-3 feet from both the side and back walls, and sure they sounded great compared to what I have right now.

Mikey081057: I guess it would be great, but might be a pain to send them over there. Also, isn't the LSiM703 crossover supposed to be great by itself (I mean, compared to the LSi9 crossover)?

Mikey081057

pyrocyborg wrote: »

DSkip: do you think the LSiM705 might be too much for my 400 sqft L shaped-room (the room they're in right now) and that it might be why bass could seem to be a tad more than I would like to?

While both rooms are open area, the next one will probably be better for one thing: I could place the speakers 18 inches away from the 14 feet wall (and something like 30-32 inches away from the side walls). Even if the room is 22 feet long, I guess it's easier to position speakers like this than to to have them stick out 8 feet from the sidewalls and not more than 12 inches from the rear wall, but I might be wrong.

I've heard a lot of systems in "long" rooms with speakers 2-3 feet from both the side and back walls, and sure they sounded great compared to what I have right now.

Mikey081057: I guess it would be great, but might be a pain to send them over there. Also, isn't the LSiM703 crossover supposed to be great by itself (I mean, compared to the LSi9 crossover)?

So i think Trey compared the VR3 703's against the 705's and would defer to him for comparison. The difference between the stock polk 703 xover and the VR3 is VERY noticeable and that's not to say that the stock 703's sound bad...The VR3's outperform the 703's and the vr3 modded 9's by a significant margin, and Trey and I were both impressed by the improvements in overall SQ the mods made. They also sound great at low/med vol levels on triode mode of my little tube amp. I realize that shipping a pair of 703's to Trey is a bit of a trek, but when they come home.... pure bliss. However YMMV

skrol

Not trying to hy-jack but I think I have a similar issue with my LSi15's (w/ DB840 upgrade). In a room 26'L x 14.5'W, the LSi15's are about 18" from the rear and 12" from the side walls. I have placement constraints to the side and they look awkward if I pull them forward more. I do have them toed in. The mids and highs are great and imaging is fantastic but the bass is muddy. I have not tried room treatments yet but have placed sofa cushions temporarily in the corners, which does help some. I think the side firing sub is an issue as I did not have this problem with the RTA11TL's in the same locations. I wish I could combine the bass of the RTA with the mids and highs of the LSi.

I have been toying with selling the LSi15's and getting some nice bookshelf speakers and a sub. However, my experience with bookshelf speakers (Vienna Acoustic Hayden Grands, Polk S8 and Monitor 5's) was that they just don't fill the room at lower volume like the towers (LSi15 and RTA11TL). I had to turn them up well above conversation level for them to sound right. I did not try the bookies with a sub though. It probably also depends on where I can place the sub.

As far as the LSi15's, I could try room treatments (flat panels and/or bass traps?). Also, would an XO upgrade help?
Stan

skrol

I have thought about that. Would it mess with the imaging given the offset tweeters?

pyrocyborg

Well, you say your LSi15 have great imaging? I think placing them near the walls would hurt both imaging and soundstage reinforce bass (bloated bass) unless you have bass trap and other accoustic treatment. If you can't change anything in your placement, I would try bass traps and RoomEQ. Would probably help tame the bass without hurting anything else.

Sure, as you know, different speakers means different placement. Some towers do Okay in corners, while other could sound muffled.

What kind of constraint do you have to the sides and what is your distance between both speakers and your listening position?

P-S: I've changed the defective LSiM705. Sounds better for sure. Still a lot of bass but it seems that the defective tweeter/midrange or crossover did more to the sound than affecting a small frequency range. Seems better at lower volumes.

pyrocyborg

skrol wrote: »

I have thought about that. Would it mess with the imaging given the offset tweeters?

Well worth a try! You'll see if it's better to lose a bit of imaging (if any) or to keep that much bass.

skrol

I have book cases which prevent moving the speakers farther from the side walls. My listening area is a combined kitchen / family room. The speakers are about 12.5' apart. There is a sofa in the family room about 12' from the speakers. The speakers toe-in is aimed at a focal point about 8' behind the sofa (middle of kitchen).

If I place the speakers in front of the book cases (about 2.5' from side and 2.5' from rear wall) they sound very nice but my wife (rightly so) thinks it does not look so nice.

pyrocyborg

skrol wrote: »

If I place the speakers in front of the book cases (about 2.5' from side and 2.5' from rear wall) they sound very nice but my wife (rightly so) thinks it does not look so nice.

Might be a worthless suggestion, but is there any other way you could move the bookcases around in your room so your speakers would be properly positionned and your wife satisfied with the bookscase and speakers integration (or the other way, if you could move your system around)? I know we have to deal with the room we have, but muddy or boomy sounding speakers aren't that great to begin with... Or if you could move the speakers around, even for a few inches, it me be interresting. I mean, some speakers doesn't sound great at all at 6-8 inches from the wall, but will sound perfect at 12 inches.

Still, you should try, if you haven't already, to invert your speakers as DSkip said.

In the extreme case, you could look at front ported or down firing speakers. You could, theorically, put them near the wall without loosing much in term of soundstage or imaging.

F1nut

I mean, it would roughly be a 300 sqft room at best, but it might be too much for a single pair of bookshelf speakers to display authoritative midbass, meaning I would probably need a quality subwoofer.

We ran the 703's and 707's in a HUGE room at the Capital Audiofest. The 703's had no problem filling the room and with authoritative midbass. Most folks didn't know which was playing....seriously. That said, I prefer the 705's out of the 3 and so does Matt Polk.

tonyb

F1nut wrote: »

We ran the 703's and 707's in a HUGE room at the Capital Audiofest. The 703's had no problem filling the room and with authoritative midbass. Most folks didn't know which was playing....seriously. That said, I prefer the 705's out of the 3 and so does Matt Polk.

What did you drive them with Jess ? Remember too, the OP doesn't have a room like at Audio shows...big and empty. Probably has lots of furniture or open areas adjoining to suck the sound up.

pyrocyborg

tonyb wrote: »

Remember too, the OP doesn't have a room like at Audio shows...big and empty. Probably has lots of furniture or open areas adjoining to suck the sound up.

True that... and my room has no acoustic treament as we speak and a lot of open area, as you say.

I just used a calibrated microphone with SPL meter, and it seems that my "floor noise level" is around 38-41 dB, depending of what's going on in the neighborhood. When I used the same SPL meter (at my listening position and height) and played some music, I could see that it rarely got any higher than 65 dB. So, I guess 65 dB is my "normal" listening level and at this level, the LSiM705 really shine.... 75 dB really seems too high to my taste, except maybe for movies. Do you think 65-70 dB is an acceptable level in apartment (daytime)?

Also... as it's 9:30 PM, I won't run any sound sweep to see if there is any dip or peaks at my listening position, but I'll do this tomorrow.

pyrocyborg

Hi again!

I did some tests again using the calibrated microphone. It seems that the SPL meter was out of whack: while using ASIO, it did fine with a floor noise level between 42 and 48 which is more appropriate. Using the SPL meter, I could say that 75 dB was just a fine listening volume.

While using the calibrated microphone, I was able to see that there were a lot of bass and midbass peaks (between 7 and 16 dB) and that might have explained why it wasn't sounding as good as it could at lower volumes (with a lot of emphasis on bass). I tamed those exact frequencies peaks using Parametric EQ and it really helped achieving a better sound.

The speakers are more detailled and bass is smooth, never overpowering. Voices are spot on, without too much bass emphasis as it was before. I would say that overall, it reduced the SPL by about 3 or 4 dB while maintaining the higher frequencies as is. Should be better with the neighbours. Sure, it's far from an ideal option to use EQ to tame the bass, but still, it's better than nothing.

It brings me to another issue and at the same time, a question for DSkip (or anyone that could answer) : You said, in an earlier post, that the LSiM705 was a correct speaker, while the LSiM703 was a fun speaker. Is it in regard of midbass slam or anything like that? Using my integrated amp in my 400 sq ft room, the LSiM705 do not seem to have any kind of viceral bass slam at 75 dB. Sure, bass isn't sloppy as it was before, but something's missing like the feeling of a good drum kick and such viceral things.

Is it because the room is too wide and that it would take a sub to get that feeling, or could it be the amp, or is it because the LSiM705 are more polite in this regard? Dilemma, as I can't afford a power amp yet, but I could change for a pair of LSiM703 and a subwoofer... even if I don't like the look of most cheap (250$ and less) stands.

Thanks!

aboroth00

pyrocyborg wrote: »

Hi again!

I did some tests again using the calibrated microphone. It seems that the SPL meter was out of whack: while using ASIO, it did fine with a floor noise level between 42 and 48 which is more appropriate. Using the SPL meter, I could say that 75 dB was just a fine listening volume.

While using the calibrated microphone, I was able to see that there were a lot of bass and midbass peaks (between 7 and 16 dB) and that might have explained why it wasn't sounding as good as it could at lower volumes (with a lot of emphasis on bass). I tamed those exact frequencies peaks using Parametric EQ and it really helped achieving a better sound.

The speakers are more detailled and bass is smooth, never overpowering. Voices are spot on, without too much bass emphasis as it was before. I would say that overall, it reduced the SPL by about 3 or 4 dB while maintaining the higher frequencies as is. Should be better with the neighbours. Sure, it's far from an ideal option to use EQ to tame the bass, but still, it's better than nothing.

It brings me to another issue and at the same time, a question for DSkip (or anyone that could answer) : You said, in an earlier post, that the LSiM705 was a correct speaker, while the LSiM703 was a fun speaker. Is it in regard of midbass slam or anything like that? Using my integrated amp in my 400 sq ft room, the LSiM705 do not seem to have any kind of viceral bass slam at 75 dB. Sure, bass isn't sloppy as it was before, but something's missing like the feeling of a good drum kick and such viceral things.

Is it because the room is too wide and that it would take a sub to get that feeling, or could it be the amp, or is it because the LSiM705 are more polite in this regard? Dilemma, as I can't afford a power amp yet, but I could change for a pair of LSiM703 and a subwoofer... even if I don't like the look of most cheap (250$ and less) stands.

Thanks!

SPL meters such as the Rat Shack meters need a calibration file to compensate for their decreased sensitivity at lower frequencies which can explain the discrepancies you see. If you have a sound card capable of of ASIO, you should take some sweeps with REW or another RTA to see what's going on and share them with us here so we can better see as well. As for the visceral kick, you don't necessarily need a subwoofer for this as long as your speaker is capable. We're not really used to "flat" bass and sometimes people prefer a rising house curve to bump up the bass frequencies to get that kick.

pyrocyborg

Hi! Well, I have a Umik-1 (calibrated microphone and SPL meter), so it should be good in that regard, I guess. The first time, I used the Java sound API (or something like that) in REW instead of the ASIO which wasn't working properly at this time. Might explain the difference between the two measurements.

As for the visceral kicks or punch, I read on other forums that it's mostly at higher volume (90-95 dB) that we may feel it properly, but I have no intention of listening at that volume, let alone pass 80 dB at the listening position. However, I'm sure some people raise their frequencies as you said to compensate at lower volume.

I could still share my REW measurement graphs, but I'm not sure it would help except pointing where the peaks and dips are. Luckily enough, it doesn't seem to have a lot of dips (2 or 3 small dips of 1 or 2 dB, and a larger one over a small frequency range) but it has a lot of peaks.

Habanero Monk

A few other items to consider. Once you start getting sub 400Hz you are listening to more the room than the speaker. You need to gate the measurement (~5ms) to get a more accurate reading of the bass response.

If you don't set a gate your graphs are going to be also including floor, wall, ceiling bounce.

Habanero Monk

DSkip wrote: »

Not sure why that matters? You're going to hear the room when you listen, so gating it is just giving you a false in-room reading.

You need to gate the response to apply any appropriate EQ below a certain frequency. Gating is going to make sure you don't correct the wrong thing.

When measuring drivers you gate the woofer measurement and then merge the response with the mid or tweeter. Same for the in room response.

Some RTA's will do this automatically. I haven't used REW in a while but I believe you have to set a gate with it to measure low frequency correctly.

pyrocyborg

Oh.. What is gating? I'm new to this...

I can see a "modal analysis" in REW which seems to see if there is any kind of resonance and we can apply it directly to our filters.

I did new measurements, and well, I think I had everything wrong. I've read that I should have made a bass measurement (200hz and less) with both speakers working at the same time. When I first did my measurements, I measured both speakers independantly: maybe that's why I could see some 15 dB peaks. Now, there is some 5-6 dB peaks, but nothing near 15 dB. Sounds better now. I do get some "impact-kick" in movies (e.g. gunshots) at 80 dB, but it doesn't seem to be the same with music.

Still, if gating is missing, my parametric EQ might be messing with something else.

Habanero Monk

Bass response can be different for each speaker since it is based on room interaction and part of that is the placement. Measure each speaker individually for starters and take a look at the individual response.

Then combine responses.

This would be the same for multiple subwoofers. You will do one at a time.

Gating is a time dependent parameter where after the impulse is played any response past a certain time threshold is ignored (this response is sound coming back at the microphone from a boundary like the floor).