Looking for tube dampers

Jhayman
Jhayman Posts: 1,548
edited April 2014 in DIY, Mods & Tweaks
The tubes in my Rogue 99 are very Microphonic they have no dampers on them, I've been looking around at some and Herbies tube dampers seem to be very highly rated..
Now I don't mind paying for something but all it seems is they are a C-Clip with plastic wheels with a strip of silicone..
They are $30 each so I'm just asking are they worth it or are there better ones out there for less $$ that I have not seen yet..
Thanks

Also I'm going to be putting Dynamat on the top cover of the Rogue to tone down some resonances is this a good idea to do with tubes, there is a vent on the top as well anyway..
ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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Comments

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited April 2014
    Once a tube has gone microphonic it's usually toast, but there's no harm in trying tube dampers other than to your wallet. Even if they don't fix the issue they are a good idea anyway. Herbie's are tried and true.

    Dynamat Extreme is always a good idea and will be fine in your pre amp.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,195
    edited April 2014
    What tubes? If they are new stock junk, probably money better invested in better tubes. But as F1 stated they won't hurt anything by using them.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    Thanks Jesse..
    You say a tube is usually toast once it get Microphonic, that's weird I've posted my Microphonic issue on another forum and not person suggested they were toast, but all suggested Dampers..
    I just figured all tubes were Microphonic a little..
    I'll pick up some Dynamat this week..
    Oh I ordered the Herbies today..
    F1nut wrote: »
    Once a tube has gone microphonic it's usually toast, but there's no harm in trying tube dampers other than to your wallet. Even if they don't fix the issue they are a good idea anyway. Herbie's are tried and true.

    Dynamat Extreme is always a good idea and will be fine in your pre amp.
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    These are 4 6SN7 tubes that the seller said have been in play for over three years..in my Rogue 99 Magnum preamp..
    I have no issues trying another set what do you recommend H9?
    I love the sound of it now..
    heiney9 wrote: »
    What tubes? If they are new stock junk, probably money better invested in better tubes. But as F1 stated they won't hurt anything by using them.

    H9
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited April 2014
    Well, all tubes are microphonic in that if you ping one you'll hear it, but you shouldn't hear any microphonics under normal use. If you hear it under normal use that tube has become hyper-sensitive so to speak and in my experience is toast.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • pumpkinman
    pumpkinman Posts: 9,882
    edited April 2014
    You want to try something cheap first ??
    Go to a plumbing supply with a tube and
    ask to see their selection of O rings. Try
    and find one that's just snug. It works and
    it's cheaper than buying tube dampers. If it
    stops the noise then you can search for tube
    audio dampers.
    lmivdewpnb28.jpg


    Because I am The Pumpkinking


    A Kind Word Is An Easy Gift To Give
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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    Wow I guess mine are extreme version..
    If my cover is on and I drag my record cleaning cloth along the top of the pre I can hear it through the speakers..
    Even if my cover is off if I just touch the volume control or basically anywhere on the thick aluminum face plate I can hear it..
    If I'm playing music I don't seem to have echo that I can hear...
    BTW I've just bi-amped the DNA 250 is on the bass and the DNA 500 is on the highs...
    The better amp on the highs correct?

    F1nut wrote: »
    Well, all tubes are microphonic in that if you ping one you'll hear it, but you shouldn't hear any microphonics under normal use. If you hear it under normal use that tube has become hyper-sensitive so to speak and in my experience is toast.
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited April 2014
    If my cover is on and I drag my record cleaning cloth along the top of the pre I can hear it through the speakers..
    Even if my cover is off if I just touch the volume control or basically anywhere on the thick aluminum face plate I can hear it..

    That's not normal, they are seriously microphonic.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited April 2014
    BTW I've just bi-amped the DNA 250 is on the bass and the DNA 500 is on the highs...
    The better amp on the highs correct?

    I would put the 500 on the bass where all that power isn't going to waste.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    I swapped it around, I just figured the better amp for the sonics needing a better slew rate hence the 500 on top 250 bottom..
    I'll try both ways for a few days..
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited April 2014
    It'll be interesting to hear your thoughts.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    Will post results when completed...:smile:
    F1nut wrote: »
    It'll be interesting to hear your thoughts.
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    Thanks for the suggestion pumpkinman...
    I may just give that a try before my Herbies arrive.
    pumpkinman wrote: »
    You want to try something cheap first ??
    Go to a plumbing supply with a tube and
    ask to see their selection of O rings. Try
    and find one that's just snug. It works and
    it's cheaper than buying tube dampers. If it
    stops the noise then you can search for tube
    audio dampers.
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,195
    edited April 2014
    You can't hear differences in slew rate unless they are very extreme. It's a useless spec that has little to do with evaluating sonics.

    What brand 6SN7's is more what my question was meant?

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    RCA 6SN7

    as for slew rate I thought it translates to better transients being quicker?
    heiney9 wrote: »
    You can't hear differences in slew rate unless they are very extreme. It's a useless spec that has little to do with evaluating sonics.

    What brand 6SN7's is more what my question was meant?

    H9
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,195
    edited April 2014
    In a general way it does, but anything over 50 is well beyond what is needed for a conventional music signal.

    Are all those microphonic or is just one the culpret? I love long plate signal tubes, but in some cases because of the gain needed in the circuit they *can* be slightly microphonic (very slightly), so when I use tube dampers it goes away. So I do agree with F1 that if they are howling or extremely sensitive like you describe, they are most likely toast. BUT, that doesn't mean you can't try to tame them enough to listen to with dampers.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    Ok that's a good fact to know..
    I just checked it seems they all are Microphonic, the 2 on the right side more so..
    I don't know anything about Tubes at all, are my RCA's Long Plate?
    Can you recommend a set of Tubes I could try?
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,195
    edited April 2014
    No, 6SN7's are octal signal tubes, so the term "long plate" doesn't mean what it does for noval signal tubes (12AU7, 12AX7, 12AT7, etc). Octal tubes can have varying plate sizes and structures but when you hear the term "long plate" that typically refers to a noval signal tube.

    Have they both always been microphonic? It's rare for them to both become that way simultaneously. I like the early Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7WGT "chrome domes", they can be pricey but they sound fantastic. Very life like and "front row" soundstage.

    or

    Tall bottle (early) Tung Sol's like these.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-TUNG-SOL-TALL-6SN7-GTB-VACUUM-TUBE-LOT-OF-4-W-D-GETTER-TESTED-/371047031355?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item566420623b

    or these Sylvania's

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/SYLVANIA-6SN7GTA-PERFECTLY-MATCHED-QUAD-BLACK-PLATE-TEST-NOS-VINTAGE-1954-/331180034622?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4d1bde4a3e

    H9

    P.s. Octal and Noval refer to the type of base. Octal tubes are the larger tubes and noval tubes (the smaller) were invented to be smaller but serve the same purpose in gear of that era.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    Upon further inspection I noticed a green and red dot on 2 of the tubes and only a red dot on the other 2..
    and they are all RCA 6SN7 GTB Tubes..
    here's a few pics

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?159921-My-new-toy&p=2038581#post2038581
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    I just bought the Rogue Used so I guess they were like that when I got it last week..
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    Here's a list of the upgrades the a Rogue has as per my communication with the seller..


    Modifications:

    The Rogue modified preamp is a highly
    modded version of the popular 99 model. It has been totally transformed
    from the original design including an Alps volume control.
    The Alps is
    spectacular but there is 1 caveat. It negates the remote control which
    although handy compromises the sonic presentation. Very nice pre with 4
    NOS 6SN7 tubes in the circuit. Two RCA and 2 Sylvania tubes.
    RHB Sound Dezign Mods


    1. Signal Gain Stage Mod:

    Consists of hand wired circuit board to control Triode bias actively.

    2. Output Buffer Stage Mod:

    Consists of hand wired circuit board to actively follow Triode without
    linearity distortion while offering a low impedance output.

    3. Signal Wire Mod:

    Replaces printed circuit traces in critical signal paths with premium
    hand wired gold on silver multi gauge wire.

    4. Output Coupling Capacitor Mod:

    Replaces existing capacitors with (Rave Review V-cap) high quality
    Teflon caps to carry signal to output jacks.

    5a. Power Supply Mod A:

    Replaces existing storage capacitor with premium type (typically Black
    Gate). Incorporate our hand wired circuit modification to existing
    power supply circuit.

    5b. Power Supply Mod B:

    Same as above but replace manufacturers design with our own in house
    design hand wired circuit board power supply.
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,195
    edited April 2014
    A 12AX7 is the noval version of the 6SN7 (octal) they are both high gain tubes so I suppose because of this they are more susceptible to going microphonic as a general rule. I have an amp that uses 6SL7's which are a cousin to the 6SN7 just lower gain (called MU) and very similar to it's noval brethren the 12AT7. I haven't had any issue with microphonics with any of my 7-8 different pairs of 6SL7's.

    NOTE: 6SN7 and 6SL7's are not usually interchangeable

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    H9 I found this sellers ad on AG, is this correct about the dots on the tubes?
    If so I guess I'm using Moving Magnet tubes in two of my sockets?
    I'm assuming moving magnet is relating to phono?

    I am looking to sell 8 6SN7-GTB's Blackplates from Andy at Vintage tube Services. I have a pair of red dots(line level), a pair of Green Dots(ultra low level), and a quad of green&Red dots (moving magnet). They have barely even been used less than 100 hours to be safe. price includes shipping and paypal fees. Reason for selling is I prefer Sylvania tubes in my rig. I priced all eight tubes at $300.00 including shipping and fees.
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,505
    edited April 2014
    VTS testing and selection page with color ID.....

    http://vintagetubeservices.com/page6.html

    "Note: The colors do not designate the quality of a tube only the Mic. level." You want a real quiet tube when high amplification is involved such as with moving magnet or moving coil cartridges.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    Thanks SCompRacer..

    That's a good read...should I take the Red or Blue Pill, lol
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited April 2014
    I ordered a set of Herbies Tube dampers got them yesterday..

    Well installed them a few hours ago, first thing I noticed, noise floor was quieter and I have to turn the volume up more to attain same volume without dampers..
    The Microphonics have all but disappeared, very little left, must knock harder to hear noise..
    Basically a night and day difference
    The music is definitely more focused and detailed and less boomy which I just noticed because of adding the dampers I also Dynamatted the cover..
    I was running the Rogue without the cover on for a few weeks which may have contributed to the boominess that has now disappeared..
    ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited April 2014
    A happy ending.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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