RTi12's - New

Wardo

Thought I would post recent experience on RTi 12's. Got the upgrade itch a few months ago, and I'm starting to scratch it.

Bought the RTi12's based on previous experience with Polk, lots of research, and price. Initially, I was looking at the A9's, but these were half the price, and almost the same speaker. They are replacing 15 year old Polk RT2000Ps that we're bi-amped to two Carver M1's (200 wpc), with bass support from Veladyne 1200 SPLR sub. I have a big room with 20ft ceilings, open floor plan, so I need the sub for additional base. Denon AVR 3600 manages everything right now.

Read a lot of mixed reviews on these, in particular with regard to how they perform with music vs HT, how much power they need, etc...... Figured what the hell, price is right, they look great (cherry), and I have plenty of power to drive them. Family wants HT, I want music.

So here goes, music only: initially hooked them up to one amp (200 wpc) and no sub - very bright, not a lot of depth, amp was working to drive them: when pushed they were loud, like make ears bleed loud. Turned on the sub, tweaked it a bit with low-pass cross between 60-80hz, sounded better. Definitely warmed up and sounded good.

Turned the sub off, bi-amped them with the Carvers and fired them them up - what a difference! Sounded really good.

Turned sub back on, a few more tweaks - F'n Nirvana! Absolutely amazing! Even when I push the amps to 75%+, it's not so much loud as it is "moving", powerful, warm, accurate, balanced, etc......incredible.

This was all done over about six hours (and a few cocktails) last night with a neighbor that's a bit of an audiophile with some pretty high-end stuff I can't afford ( or wouldn't I pay for I should say). He couldn't believe what he was hearing coming out of speakers that were $400 a pop.

Hope this helps anyone out there looking at these, or even the A9's for that matter. They need power, and it not so much to play them "loud" as it is to open them up. Unlike the Rt2000p, these don't need to be played loud to sound good - even low listening levels they sound great with the help of the amps and sub. Clarity, depth, accuracy, warmth, etc......it's there.

And for those that talk about breaking speakers in - I don't buy it, never have. Your ears might need to get used to new speakers, but them needing hundreds of hours of "break-in" time is ridiculous. There's lot of data driven, objective info and studies out there by sound engineers that will tell you the same.

The exercise last night is a great example. Had I hooked these speakers up to a single amp, no sub and listened to them, I may have convinced myself they needed to be broken in. Hogwash, hook them up to 800 watts of power with some low end sub support and they frick'n rock right out of the box! No "break-in" required for me to convince myself I like how they sound.

Couldn't be happier with the RTi12's and how they are set up - couldn't wait to get out of bed to fire them up again this morning.

The Carvers are on a waiting list to get upgraded in Fall - can't wait. The RTi12's eat everything they have right now.

As the upgrade itch continues to get scratched, a Denon x4000 avr shows up next Tuesday - looking forward to seeing what that is going to do with the whole HT experience with the RTi12's up front.

B Run

Wardo wrote: »

And for those that talk about breaking speakers in - I don't buy it, never have. Your ears might need to get used to new speakers, but them needing hundreds of hours of "break-in" time is ridiculous. There's lot of data driven, objective info and studies out there by sound engineers that will tell you the same.

I've got the same speakers and they definitely do break in, believe it or not. It's not your ears adjusting it's the speaker. You don't need to do anything special or give them "Break in time" as you put it, but over the new few hundred hours the tweeter will definitely relax a little and the woofers start to loosen up.

Congrats on the new speakers, I love mine and think they sound great for music and HT use as well. Welcome to the forum!

Wardo

That's great, if they get better that's awesome.

I hear people talk about the break in stuff, but all the research I have read, including research on tweeters and mids with one hour on them and then revisiting them hundreds of hours later doesn't demonstrate any measurable sonic differences. Yet humans ears pick up the difference? By all means, if there is data on this that actually measures the affect of these long break in periods I would love to read it! I haven't been able to find it.

I have read that the initial power up makes a big difference, however, most of the component manufacturers provide the drivers "pre-burned" to speaker manufacturers..

jeremymarcinko

I have rti12's they needed about 200 hours before they settled in. If you like the way sound now just give em a bit and you'll love the easy they sound.

tonyb

Wardo wrote: »

That's great, if they get better that's awesome.

I hear people talk about the break in stuff, but all the research I have read, including research on tweeters and mids with one hour on them and then revisiting them hundreds of hours later doesn't demonstrate any measurable sonic differences. Yet humans ears pick up the difference? By all means, if there is data on this that actually measures the affect of these long break in periods I would love to read it! I haven't been able to find it.

I have read that the initial power up makes a big difference, however, most of the component manufacturers provide the drivers "pre-burned" to speaker manufacturers..[/QUOTE

Common misconception that if it is heard it must be measureable. If so, kindly explain to all of us what tool is used to measure soundstage width-height-depth, tone, air around notes, etc. Not everything is cut and dry....nor do charts and graphs tell the whole story.

F1nut

Even when I push the amps to 75%+

So, you had the volume control at 75%+ and therefore think the amps were too. Do I have that right?

The Carvers are on a waiting list to get upgraded in Fall - can't wait.

The M1.0t was one of the worst sounding SS amps Carver made. Save your money getting them upgraded, especially if you're thinking of having that half brained, lying POS, hack richie do the work.

BlueFox

The M1.0t was one of the worst sounding SS amps Carver made. Save your money getting them upgraded, especially if you're thinking of having that half brained, lying POS, hack richie do the work.

LOL. Put that on Angie's List, or Yelp.

Thorton

Wardo, welcome to the Club. I was in a similar boat as you with the very large room. Give the A9's/12's sufficient power and sub support for the low end, awesome results. Congrats and enjoy!

Thorton

F1nut wrote: »

The M1.0t was one of the worst sounding SS amps Carver made.

Ouch.

tonyb

Wardo wrote: »

I have read that the initial power up makes a big difference, however, most of the component manufacturers provide the drivers "pre-burned" to speaker manufacturers..

That's a new one on me....care to expose that source of info ?

Wardo

Dude relax, I'm a fan of Carver and they sound great in my system. Not too mention they have some sentimental value, and many audiophiles actually think they represent some of Carvers better work. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what they think, or what you think (which matters even less to me). IMO they sound great!

If you don't like them so be it. Rich is actually well respected in the Carver community. He has retired recently and turned the business over to Greg.

Not going to get into it with you on the volume thing, I know when the amps headroom is exhausted and when it's close.

Wardo

F1nut wrote: »

So, you had the volume control at 75%+ and therefore think the amps were too. Do I have that right?



The M1.0t was one of the worst sounding SS amps Carver made. Save your money getting them upgraded, especially if you're thinking of having that half brained, lying POS, hack richie do the work.

Dude relax, I'm a fan of Carver and they sound great in my system. Not too mention they have some sentimental value, and many audiophiles actually think they represent some of Carvers better work. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what they think, or what you think (which matters even less to me). IMO they sound great!

If you don't like them so be it. Rich is actually well respected in the Carver community. He has retired recently and turned the business over to Greg.

Not going to get into it with you on the volume thing, I know when the amps headroom is exhausted and when it's close.

Wardo

[/QUOTE] Common misconception that if it is heard it must be measureable. If so, kindly explain to all of us what tool is used to measure soundstage width-height-depth, tone, air around notes, etc. Not everything is cut and dry....nor do charts and graphs tell the whole story.[/QUOTE]

Just my opinion, that's all - everyone has one. I used to put together some high end sound systems in bars, would occasionally replace a blown speaker or blown drivers and never really noticed a difference in sound from the new vs. the old, or new drivers vs. replaced in the bars or my home for that matter.

So are you saying that if you don't like the way speakers sound when you get them out of the box and into your setup, to sit tight with them because they will get better as they "break in"?

Not trying to open a can of worms here, hadn't actually researched any of this "break in" stuff since I got the 2000P's 12 plus years ago. I wasn't crazy about their sound of the box, and I didn't think "break-in" was going to help, so I added power and a sub, and got the sound I was looking for.

Looked at the whole break-in myth vs. fact last night, wholly crap there's a lot of stuff on it out there on the internet. And some pretty strong opinions for both sides. Given the fact that some of the guys here on the forum have the RTi12's and say theywill get better over time, I am not going to discount them - they have first hand experience with them! And God Bless if they do get better with time! I'll keep an open mind to that. I just don't know how much better they could sound, because right now,the sound is exceptional. From what I saw last night, this subject has been beaten to death, on the Polk Forum, and other forums. If I could retract the comment about break in, I would do it now.

When I put the original post out, I was just trying to provide some feedback to folks that are in the same situation that I was looking at these things (A9's or the 12's). Thought sharing my observations as I integrated them with my system might be helpful.I know I would have found it helpful. And out of the box, in my listening environment, set up the way they are, they are awesome.

An IMHO, when I see people telling others they can drive these things with an AVR that does 125 wpc, that's just wrong.

cfrizz

Welcome Wardo and congrats on the speakers.

The best thing you did was already having the amps to hook them up to so that they are being powered correctly from the get go!

As for break in, I've never worried about it since I wouldn't leave the store without hearing the speakers first. If I don't like them in the store, I'm not going to try to convince myself that I will like them any better when I get home.

If I like them in the store then I will like them when they get home from the get go. Therefore, I don't need to worry about break in as they play since they sound good no matter what.

Enjoy your system Wardo.

Wardo

tonyb wrote: »

That's a new one on me....care to expose that source of info ?

Here are a couple of the better sources I found looking at this stuff last night:

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction

For the sake of objectivity, and not being "biased", here is a thread link, that has some good info in it, including a study with data that contradicts the one on audioholics: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1331057/break-in-question-on-speakers

Did not mean to open this can of worms, and stated previously, would retract my statement regarding break-in in my original post.

To each his own. Break-in or not, if the speakers don't sound really good when you first listen to them, odds are, the break-in isn't going to provide significant improvement and you probably need to look elsewhere for improved sound - different speakers, different power source(s), sub, room acoustics, etc.....

Wardo

cfrizz wrote: »

Welcome Wardo and congrats on the speakers.

The best thing you did was already having the amps to hook them up to so that they are being powered correctly from the get go!

As for break in, I've never worried about it since I wouldn't leave the store without hearing the speakers first. If I don't like them in the store, I'm not going to try to convince myself that I will like them any better when I get home.

If I like them in the store then I will like them when they get home from the get go. Therefore, I don't need to worry about break in as they play since they sound good no matter what.

Enjoy your system Wardo.

Agreed on all counts!

tonyb

Wardo wrote: »

To each his own. Break-in or not, if the speakers don't sound really good when you first listen to them, odds are, the break-in isn't going to provide significant improvement and you probably need to look elsewhere for improved sound - different speakers, different power source(s), sub, room acoustics, etc.....

That's a reasonable statement....finally. LOL

Just for the record, charts and graphs are cool and all that and certainly a tool among many to use, but not the be all end all. We usually like to form opinions based on real world experiences over internet articles. Just sayin'....congrats on the speaks anyway, as long as your happy,we're happy.

F1nut

Rich is actually well respected in the Carver community. He has retired recently and turned the business over to Greg.

Other than the a$$ kissers on his site, no he's not. Even Bob Carver did not approve of his mods.

Wardo

F1nut wrote: »

Other than the a$$ kissers on his site, no he's not. Even Bob Carver did not approve of his mods.

Looks like there some of those "a$$ kissers" on this site too: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?75298-Souped-up-Carver-Amps


Not too mention the "a$$ kissers" on the "the original Carver site" (from your post, and the link you provided in '09): http://www.carveraudio.com/phpBB3/

I am assuming you and Rich must have crossed paths at one point and it didn't end well?

As a seasoned member of the Polk community, maybe you (or anyone else, please chime in!) could provide me some constructivefeedback other than getting rid of the Carvers. I'm going to update the Carvers. That's a done deal. I had one of them overhauled by Sunfire 6-7 years ago, didn't cost me squat, and it has sounded great ever since, not too mention nostalgia, sentimental, and IMHO, they sound really good.

However, I would like your advice an a new amp. The whole reason I have started down the upgrade path is because we are going to be building a home in 9-12 months and would like to assemble a system now, so I'm not burdened with the expense of new HT/Sound system when we move, given the fact my wife is going to want new furniture, window treatments, and all that other crap that adds up with a new home. The plan was to build the system now, and 2-3 years after we move in and get the basement finished start working on another system. That will be an opportunity to mix-match some of what I currently have, or, go allnew.

Which brings me to my question for you: Originally, I was going to send my M1's in one at a time in Fall so I wasn't left without an amp. However, after listening to the difference of the RTi12's with one amp vs. two and knowing I will need another amp in the future when I do the basement, maybe I send them both in, find a new amp to drive the system while those are in, and have an amp lying in wait to to drive a future system.

So here's my question - say I have $2000 msrp to spend on an amp (I am assuming will buy at 25-30% off list, so hoping to keep my out of pocket around $1500) and am looking for something that would drive the RTi12's and potentially a center channel (RTiA6). Would I want to look at a 5 channel, 250wpc amp so I could bi-amp? Would I be asking too much to get a 7 channel with those specs that could also drive the rears as well?

I am all ears on this one, haven't been in the amp buying business in a long time. There's a lot of amp manufacturers out there right now I had never heard of when I used to spec and set systems up in the bar business.

Thanks in advance!

Wardo

tonyb wrote: »

That's a reasonable statement....finally. LOL

Just for the record, charts and graphs are cool and all that and certainly a tool among many to use, but not the be all end all. We usually like to form opinions based on real world experiences over internet articles. Just sayin'....congrats on the speaks anyway, as long as your happy,we're happy.

Glad I could contribute something reasonable. The reason I was looking at the data, was based on the fact that in my experience, I really never noticed a difference with break-in. Listening to all of those people that are "pro-break-in", thought I would see if there was data on it, and maybe I was missing something as I hadn't heard it in my personal experience in the real world. Hey, if they know something, or are going to give me a different perspective on it, all the better. For that matter everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

From a "real world experience standpoint" I started getting into this stuff back in the late 80's. Back in college and shortly after college, I installed numerous systems in bars, was responsible for playing the music, and taking care of the hardware. From time-to-time, we would replace speakers and/or drivers, and I really never noticed a difference. My personal experience was with Infinities, JBL's, Bose, Klipsch and Polk. I got into Polks because my buddies that worked at the AV shop that did the installs in the bars, got a once-year 50% employee deal from Polk that they shared with some of us.

I started the post to simply share some observations about these speakers as I integrated them into a system that allowed me to progressively add power. If I could retract the initial statement about break-in I would do it in a heart beat, didn't mean to offend anyone.

Glad to see the audiophile/stereophile prema donna police are scrutinizing every post to ensure others opinions and thoughts are correct.

F1nut

I would say most of those guys are ex-a$$ kissers....LOL

from your post, and the link you provided in '09):

Not sure what post/link you are referring to.

The main problem with those mods is the tranny, it's not designed for the power increase. There have been a number of failures after the mods, but you won't find any of that mentioned on his site.

One of Parasound multi-channel amps would be a good match with your speakers.

jeremymarcinko

In your price range (new) I would check out the Outlaw 7500 5x200wpc. It lists for $1599 and is considered by many to perform way above its price point. It is built by ATI and a clone of the ATI 2005, which is considered to be a bargain at its $3400 price tag.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7500.html It is on my short list of amps I am considering as well. I think the only other viable option would be to consider used at that price. There is the Emotiva xpa-5 within your budget of $1500 but I would think the Outlaw would be more compatible with the Rti's as it is a warmer sounding amp.

Wardo

jeremymarcinko wrote: »

In your price range (new) I would check out the Outlaw 7500 5x200wpc. It lists for $1599 and is considered by many to perform way above its price point. It is built by ATI and a clone of the ATI 2005, which is considered to be a bargain at its $3400 price tag.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7500.html It is on my short list of amps I am considering as well. I think the only other viable option would be to consider used at that price. There is the Emotiva xpa-5 within your budget of $1500 but I would think the Outlaw would be more compatible with the Rti's as it is a warmer sounding amp.

Thanks for the info, interestingly I was actually looking at both of those this afternoon. I've heard first hand good things about the Outlaws. I came across the Emotivas just by searching around. I've seen some decent feedback on on the Crowns, but unless someone here can really vouch for them, personal history with the brand going back to the bar business is terrible, they were the worst , but that was 15 years ago, so maybe they've improved - they are still in business, so I guess that says something.

Would love to hear first hand from others, in particular anyone powering RTi12's or A9's with these amps (Emotiva, Outlaw, or Parasound mentioned by F1nut).

Thanks!

Wardo

jeremymarcinko wrote: »

In your price range (new) I would check out the Outlaw 7500 5x200wpc. It lists for $1599 and is considered by many to perform way above its price point. It is built by ATI and a clone of the ATI 2005, which is considered to be a bargain at its $3400 price tag.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7500.html It is on my short list of amps I am considering as well. I think the only other viable option would be to consider used at that price. There is the Emotiva xpa-5 within your budget of $1500 but I would think the Outlaw would be more compatible with the Rti's as it is a warmer sounding amp.

Thanks for the info, interestingly I was actually looking at both of those this afternoon. I've heard first hand good things about the Outlaws. I came across the Emotivas just by searching around. I've seen some decent feedback on on the Crowns, but unless someone here can really vouch for them, personal history with the brand going back to the bar business is terrible, they were the worst , but that was 15 years ago, so maybe they've improved - they are still in business, so I guess that says something.

Would love to hear first hand from others, in particular anyone powering RTi12's or A9's with these amps (Emotiva, Outlaw, or Parasound mentioned by F1nut).

Thanks!

Wardo

F1nut wrote: »

I would say most of those guys are ex-a$$ kissers....LOL



Not sure what post/link you are referring to.

The main problem with those mods is the tranny, it's not designed for the power increase. There have been a number of failures after the mods, but you won't find any of that mentioned on his site.

One of Parasound multi-channel amps would be a good match with your speakers.

Thanks, Parasound got added to the list. Info on the mods and tranny is helpful as well. Appreciate it!

sagasa

I can share some of my experience with the 12 the best match amp that can really open up the Rti12 is the emotiva Xpr-2 these amp really bring the best of the 12 go sheck the Emotiva forum you will see a lot of members that uses the Xpr2 to drive their 12 or a9. I know these i had these set up for almost a year and i enjoyed it be at music or theater.

Wardo

Very cool, thanks Sagasa for the info. Looks like its Emotivas and Outlaws are in the running. Para looks to be too pricey, laws of diminishing returns starting to kick in. Maybe that's why I like the Carvers so much :-)

I mean damn, it's not like I'm driving speakers that run$5-10k/pair that are true audiophile stuff. These things were $800/pair on Polk EBay. I heard Frys was selling them for $325 each over the holidays.

Open to other suggestions on the amps.

Cheers!

Wardo

sagasa wrote: »

I can share some of my experience with the 12 the best match amp that can really open up the Rti12 is the emotiva Xpr-2 these amp really bring the best of the 12 go sheck the Emotiva forum you will see a lot of members that uses the Xpr2 to drive their 12 or a9. I know these i had these set up for almost a year and i enjoyed it be at music or theater.

Actually, Looks like the XPR 5 is spot on. It could drive fronts, center, and rear, and let the AVR take care of sides and distributing out to subs. Very cool, I'm going to see if I can find one in town to listen to paired with 12's or A9s.

Thanks!

tonyb

Wardo wrote: »

Glad to see the audiophile/stereophile prema donna police are scrutinizing every post to ensure others opinions and thoughts are correct.

C'mon Wardo.... stick around and get the lay of the land. Internet talk can easily be construed the wrong way. When you ask a question of which you have no experience with, you will get many opinions both for and against from others who have had experience with what your asking. Add in the many personalities of the membership, and before long it will be like talking to your friends in a pool hall....or bar. We call each other on their sh$t....something friends do don't they ?

As far as your amp search with those speakers go, Emotiva is not a good match with fairly bright speakers....unless you like that kinda sound then roll with it. The Parasound suggested is a great match along with a used B&k amp, both match up well with Polk speakers. The world of audio is a lot bigger than the brands you mentioned. Like I said, stick around, get the lay of the land, the personalities, get some thicker skin, because we screw around here in fun, poke and prod each other, all while trying to advance our own individual audio journey. This is a fun forum, great bunch of guys too to learn and expand your audio know how with. Enjoy your speaks and the forum.

Inspector 24

Glad to see the audiophile/stereophile prema donna police are scrutinizing every post to ensure others opinions and thoughts are correct.

A lot of that does happen around here...most expecially by certain individuals, and mainly because of a poor approach with good intent to help. (I think)

I am very happy with my Parasound Amps on my A9's. The more power they got the better they were. The first Parasound I had was a revelation over the Yamaha AVR they started out on. Things only got better from there.

Haven't heard the EMO gear, it works great for some people, but based on many reviews it would be far too bright on the A9's which to my ear are on the bright side of my tastes for music anyway, fortunately the big power Parasound 3500 makes them quite pleasurable.

Thanks for your feedback reinforcing the need for plenty of power for the A9/12's to work their best.

Wardo

tonyb wrote: »

C'mon Wardo.... stick around and get the lay of the land. Internet talk can easily be construed the wrong way. When you ask a question of which you have no experience with, you will get many opinions both for and against from others who have had experience with what your asking. Add in the many personalities of the membership, and before long it will be like talking to your friends in a pool hall....or bar. We call each other on their sh$t....something friends do don't they ?

As far as your amp search with those speakers go, Emotiva is not a good match with fairly bright speakers....unless you like that kinda sound then roll with it. The Parasound suggested is a great match along with a used B&k amp, both match up well with Polk speakers. The world of audio is a lot bigger than the brands you mentioned. Like I said, stick around, get the lay of the land, the personalities, get some thicker skin, because we screw around here in fun, poke and prod each other, all while trying to advance our own individual audio journey. This is a fun forum, great bunch of guys too to learn and expand your audio know how with. Enjoy your speaks and the forum.

No worries, that's cool. Not taking any of it personally, I know how it goes, some similar experience on RV, fly fishing, diesel truck, and shotgun forums. Three of which forums, I actually know what the f I'm talking about. I will say, round of responses started off a little edgy for first time poster, so I may have fed the fire a bit. I never stay with the forums, too many interests and **** going on. I usually do an initial post on an initial purchase experience for those in a similar situation that might find it helpful. But to your point, there's a lot of knowledge out there.

I've been doing some research on the amps, including the Parasound. Would love to find a 5-7 channel that does 3-400 wpc. One chassis is appealing. Years ago, I would have loved to have a stack of amps all racked up. Now a days it's much easier when it comes to the wife walking one box in the house and installing it in the entertainment center, regardless of what I spent. As it is, I am having to compromise in the new house with in wall/ceiling sides and rears for family room.

The PS A51 looks close, only concern is that it's pushing 250wpc, and the Rti12s are eating up every bit of the two Carver M1s I am throwing at them. While it's a budget buster, if it were the right amp, I can swing it. That's why the Emo XPR-5 looked so appealing - 5 x 400 in one box. Lots of options and headroom for future. I'm going to have to spend some time looking around on this one. This may be a lot to ask, I see you are in Chicago, can you recommend a shop that has carries the PS, Emotiva, and/or Outlaw and has a decent listening room with Polk RTi or A5s?