sub toss-up

neomagus00

okey... this is a two part question

first - i'm kinda back-and-forth on what size of sub to get. its between 8's, 10's, and 12's. i know that 8's are punchy but without good low-range extension (and the midbass is something i'm missing with my mm6's). tens seem focused toward sq and 12s to spl, in general. i'm definately more concerned about sq cause one-note bass simply does not appeal to me (tho that is kinda an understatement) - whatever i get will be in a sealed box, and ill probably need two of whatever because i've got a convertible (it's rather noisy at seventy or eighty with the top dropped). however, i want them to be able to pound like hell when i crank it - not deafening (for long periods of time anyway ) but more than enough to bring that little idiot grin to my face. any rec's?

part two of the question saga - i have, like i sed, mm6's, driven by a c300.2; i like that combo a lot (tho the tweets are way too powerful - 6 dB attentuation on the crossovers, -1 on my HU, and +3 to mid and bass on the HU just to get it close to balanced; thinking about a equalizer next - btw, any rec's on that, such as # bands req'd and brand?). do i stick with polkmomo amps, or do i go to zapco or usamps, both of which i hear great things about - although only from this forum. the guys at my local shop (and its the only one within an hour, so i guess im kinda getting only one side of the argument from them) say that momo or planet audio amps will stomp the zaps or us amps. any opinions?

PoweredByDodge

only thing "stomping" USamps is Tru Tech... got $4,000 bucks for an amp? if so... come on down.

anywho -- you're prolly gonna be puttin these in the trunk eh?

if so -- two polk momo mm104's will do the job... with a polk C300.2 bridged to each one.

if you wanna go a little less power... a polk C500.1 hooked to two polk mm2104's would be good as well.

... depends on the car and and what you're lookin for and all that.... its a judgement call.

neomagus00

that sounds cool; how accurate are the mm104s? are there any better sq subs out there? and finally, should i be having that much trouble with my tweets, or might something be wrong? thanx for ur help, btw

MTXMAN

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only F*$(ing reason that your "local shop" said that polk and planet audio amps were better than zapco and Us Amps is cause they don't carry zapco and us. polk makes some decent amps but US is definately better than all three brands and zapco is at the very least on the same plane on quailty with the polk but i wouldn't get a planet audio mainly cause i don't trust a company that doesn't actually make their own amps (the go with a third party manufacturer) and you have to search high and low to get any specs other than power ratings for them. I had to contact them 3 times to find out the slew rate and dampening factor of one of their amps. their tecs never could find out the slew rate for me... shady in my opinion.

neomagus00

thats true, thae don't carry zap or us; they did do a very clean install tho. solved my tweeter problem, too; only thing left - is there a higher quality sub than polk out there (within reason, of course)?

sntnsupermen131

yes, there are better sq subs out there than polks...mind you most are a little less powerful
focal and diamond audio make very good SQ subs
theyre more expensive though...or they dont handle as much power
Polks are very good for what you pay for
the momos retail is a tad over priced, but their prices on the internet are generally better than comparable subs
and zapco is better than polk amps IMO
i think Jusin(polk guy) ran zapco amps
probably switched over to polk now though
but USAmps is really out of polk's league...out of their price range too...
im not trying to down polk, they make great mid-grade subs for a low-grade price...thats why i like em
-Cody

MTXMAN

just keep in mind that whenever you're going into a shop they're going to push whatever they'll get comission on. they'll never recomend something that they don't carry and they'll try to get you to spend as much as possible. I used to work at CC, trust me they only care about getting your money.

PoweredByDodge

when it comes down to it, for the 300 - 500 watt subwoofer group, nobody makes a nicer sub in the price range of most non multi-millionaire's than Polk.

the alpine R is on the same par, but i found them harder to "get loud" -- I had to put around 700 watts to each of two type R 10's to get them as loud as i later found two Polk DX 10's to be off about 400 watts each. (bought my girlfriend a set of polks and broke them in for a few weeks in my truck).

I dunno... I'd go with the polk. I'm straying further from an affinity for apline (and i wasn't their biggest fan before)...

I like the Image Dynamics IDQ 10's and 12's... but they're like 300 w 10's / 400 w 12's... where as the polk MOMO 10 and 12 are like 550 and 650 watt subs respectively. the momo is louder. not as "precise" -- but louder, and i dont think you'd notice the Q difference anyway... the IDQ is more compareable to the MOMO 2104 or 2124 (aka "baby momo") ... now little old me LOVES the new baby momo subs. they're punchier, more responsive, and CHEAPER. just as damn durable... remniscient of the old DX stuff... which i never had much a complaint about.

So anywho --take that for what its worth dude

TheAudioSpectru

What did she do to deserve a set of polk's eh?...cause i know i wouldnt buy my girl subs...but that's a different story

TrappedUnder Ice

My girl's better then polk...she GETS IDQ's

Power ratings aint every thing... IDQ's are more effecient then polks...wich makes up for it! talkes less power to get them sounding good!!!!!!!!!!!:cool:

Systems

Whats youe price range for these 2 subs and an amp? Are you buying all new stuff or staying with what you have?

imo, their are a lot of better options than polk. The IDQ is a better sub than the polk. All dpends on the money you want to spend before you get recommendations and the power that you may or may not want to put out. Power isnt everything, efficiency plays a big role in it all too, but their are them supersubs out their that take 1000+ watts and sound better and louder than any of them 400-500 watt systems.

PoweredByDodge

the idq does not shake-n-bake like the new baby momo's do -- thus i'm slightly partial to the new baby momo... but let that not decrease my love for ID.

as far as what my gf did -- nothing -- i just decided one day to give her an alpine 7863 flip face deck, a set of polk dx 3055 components, dx6 61/2" rears off a 4 channel mtx 204 (50 x 4) and a pair of polk DX 10 8 ohm subs bridged off an mtx 302 (466 x 2 at 4 ohms bridged) and do one of the sweetest installs of my life.

cuz i was bored.

neomagus00

I'm looking at two tens, due to space and styling issues; $350 or less is best (each), but as high as $450 (also each) if something amazing presents itself; as always, quality is of primary concern; looks are secondary, but necessary nonetheless; as i have no bass-range mobile equipment, this will be all new, and i want it to be better than most peoples' stuff a couple years down the road, too, i'd rather wait and save for the really good stuff than buy average stuff now

power - i want to be able to distinguish a bass guitar from a bass drum at seventy with the top down, so i'm guessing i'll need a lot; if this can't be done in my price range w/ 2 tens, then so be it, i'll deal; i do want whatever to be able to keep up with the 6.5 momo components up front, cause they can scream if they wanna

i do hope i've not embarrassed myself by putting up something completely idiotic, or forgetting something wonderful; all of these drivers represent the best that each company has to offer, so i know they're at least above-average (i hope); comments are welcome; thanx a lot

oh, and as for amps, i'm thinking probably usamps, zapco, polk, i dunno; i know even less about amp brands than i do about subs, so i'll leave that question until after the subs have been chosen

Here are the finalists, as of now:

Alpine SWR-1041D; or, the dual-2, depending upon amp; according to previous comments, this is probably a no-go, but is included for posterity

Perhaps, the Boston Acoustics ProSeries 10.5LF? No idea what to expect here.

Diamond Audio TDX-10D4; or the D2, again depending upon amplifier

Eclipse SW9102; price may be an issue here, i dunno

Elemental Designs e10A.22; i must say, i really like the clean, different look of these drivers

MB Quart Premium PWD-254; see boston and eclipse for applicable comments

And, naturally, the Polk/MOMO MM104

oh, and on a slightly related note - i pulled up next to someone at a stoplight that was pounding away and she cranked it for me - and then her trunk lid bent and sounded like it broke something expensive; is this a common problem; and, since my trunk is probably sealed much better than her's was, should i worry about something like this happening? it does seem like an awful lot of pressure to contain in a volume as small as my car's boot.

sntnsupermen131

this is my pick
this is an awesome sub
get two bd1000s and call it a day
-Cody

neomagus00

oh, no, we can't ever just call it a day... we must endlessly question ourselves and reconsider our choices . as for the idmax, that company has no stats for a 10... see here. and, while I've never heard a rf amp, the reviews and posts i've read concerning them seem to be about average... which is rather below what I'm looking for

however, i appreciate the opinion and welcome more

neomagus00

supermen - i remember a thread a little bit ago that involved me thinking you were crazy for believing there was an idmax 10; you told me to call them; so, i just got around to it, and they do indeed have one

thus, i add the Image Dynamics IDMAX 10" to my list

i apologize for the interruption, and i will now return you to your scheduled programming...

sntnsupermen131

the link i gave you is to ID's 10" DVC sub
TruTech H1
2 of those
-Cody

neomagus00

Hmm... PbD sez

Tru Tech... got $4,000 bucks for an amp? if so... come on down.

Still, they remain under consideration until i find out how much they are - i expect a reply shortly from their sales dept (it was easier than hunting on google for 2 minutes)

This is slightly out of my price range. I am looking to spend 1500 - 2000 total, so after subs and install, that leaves (worst case) 400 for amp; best case (i.e. at the bottom end of my sub price range of 350-450, hopefully where my purchase will be; and with no install screw-ups) 1200.

to accomodate this range of prices, i have simply included brand names and product lines, where appropriate, of the companies on my hit list.

Hifonics Brutus Series 500-1500W x 1 Ch @ 1 Ohm

TruTech TO3-2.250 1000W x 1 Ch @ 4 Ohms

TruTech T-2.200v2; 600W x 1 Ch @ 4 Ohms

TruTech C-7 550W x 2 Ch @ 2 Ohms

TruTech C-7.2 750W x 2 Ch @ 1 Ohm; 1000W x 1 Ch @ 4 Ohms; 1500W x 1 @ 2 Ohm

I don't think i deserve this kind of quality, and i think it would be wasted on a sub anyway, but just for reflection on what can be had: TruTech A Class 500W x 2 Ch @ 1 Ohm (AB operation)

And, finally, the beast: TruTech Hammer H-1 600W x 1 Ch @ 4 Ohms; 1000W x 1 Ch @ 2 Ohms; 1500W x 1 Ch @ 1 Ohm (the SH-1 is just two of these bridged internally)

I will return with more at a later time. Now, its bedtime.

sntnsupermen131

trutech is TOTL
i was going to add more amps to that list, but my computer froze, then wouldnt let me get back on, then i forgot about it
but i was also looking at the zapco c2k6.0 and the usamps 1000x
www.zapco.com, click on products, competition, c2k, then finally 6.0...at least i think thats the way it went
www.usamps.com, click on amplifiers, 2 channel, then usa-1000/usa-1000x
the difference b/t the 1000 and the 1000x is i BELIEVE the 1000x is rated at 1000x1 @ 2 ohms and the 1000 is 1000x1@4 ohms
notice the difference in ohms, you want the 2 ohm one, i think its the 1000x, but dont quote me...
usamps is more in your price range
-Cody

sntnsupermen131

if youre going with the ID max:
the hifonics is only going to put 900 watts to it....100 less than its rms...but really, that id max can handle probably 1500 watts with no problem
TruTech TO3-2.250 --this amp is ok, but you wont be buying the sub i linked too...youll be buying the other model that you can wire to 4ohms
TruTech T-2.200v2--aint going to work for an ID max...momo yes, max no
TruTech C-7--ive never seen a 4 channel hooked up to a single sub...ever...i know its been done, but im kinda etchy about the whole thing, but since its a dvc sub, i wouldnt feel as bad about it
and finally the 7.2---hook it up to the sub i linked too and it will SLAM like no ones business
but you WILL need 2 batteries
hell, if you go with 2 ID maxes, youll need 2 batterties no matter what...or a damn good alternator
-Cody

sntnsupermen131

you can also get the hammer sh-1
that way you wont need 2 amps
with some tricky wiring you can get the load from both subs to 2 ohms, and wire it to the amp and each sub will get 1500 each
probably save you money rather than buying two h-1s
-Cody

neomagus00

so, u seem quite partial to the idmaxes, but pbd sez they dont "shake-n-bake" like the momos. it has occurred to me that the 'flavor' of the sub should match that of the mm6's. they're pretty cold and somewhat mechanical sounding (not warmer like my home stuff), so i need subs that will blend with that sound. i'd tend to assume the mm104 would do that the best.

what about Rainbow Audio? I caught mention of it a while back; just thought id throw the name out.

now the subs are down to:

Adire Audio Brahma 10
Boston Acoustics ProSeries 10.5LF
Diamond Audio TDX 10
Elemental Designs A10
Image Dynamics IDMAX 10
MBQuart Premium 10

and the first line-up of amps, keeping in mind that i know very little about these companies, they're just here by rep:
A/D/S
Hifonics
Polk Audio
Precision Power
Soundstream
TruTechnology
US Amps
Xtant
Zapco


at what ampere draw do i need a second battery, and at what draw do i need a HO alt? i'm not really interested in installing a second batt, and def. not interested in putting another alt in. not yet, anyway. ive got no probs w/ getting a high quality batt, but only one if i can get away w/ it. i'll use this info to help decide which sub to get, and whether to get one or two.

and, at this kind of output, do i need to worry about the trunk thing i described?

finally, we have the compiled opions of the court :
Sntnsupermen131: IDMAX, TruTech
scottw: IDMAX
PbD: Polk/MOMO, UsAmps
Me: Polk for blending; Adire for sheer volume and good sq too; ED for looks (please no more dehlima arguments); the rest for name and reputation

p.s. thanx for reading through my ramble and helping me along; i really appreciate it

sntnsupermen131

no, pbd said the image dynamic IDQ's didnt "shake and bake"
the id maxes are a different story
he has 2 ID maxes in his truck along with polk DX series components i think, im sure he likes the mix great
rainbow audio makes great speakers...very clear, their high end of speakers is in the thousands of dollars...not sure about their subs though...
and im not partial to the id maxes, you just said you want something that will be great years from now, and the ID max will do it for ya
so will adire
**** ED, i hate those ****
the brahma and the max will sound better from what ive heard about the ED anyway
if youre going with 2 ID maxes, youll have to have a 2nd battery, or replace ur stock alt. with a better one, or both...
but you can just get 1 10" or 12" and youll just need a battery in the range of 750-800+ cca
i suggest energizer, theyre cheap, solid, and reliable
optima yellow tops are probably among the best out there though...if you have the money...yellow top is the way to go
and all those amps you listed are freakin awesome amps
id go with the usamps, theyre great amps and they wont cost you an arm and a leg like trutech will, if youre planning on competing for SQ, trutech, if not, usamps...get their tube amp for the components, and their class d for your sub(s)
if you dont want to get a 2nd battery:
go with 1 ID max 10" or 12"
i would go with the 12 unless space/size is an issue, a 12 will go a little deeper than the 10, but again, up to you
diamond audio also has very accurate subs, i dont think theyll hit like the brahma or the max, but i havent heard them, nor do i know the rms rating...
but as far as what I would do, the brahma or the max, both are great subs
really amazing, and its a hard choice to make...id see which one has a higher sensitivity rating...higher=louder:D
and polk/momo amps are a no go on the adire or the max, they dont have an amp that will meet specs with those monster subs
-Cody

TrappedUnder Ice

I dissagree....I cook chicken in my car with my 2 12" IDQ's all the time

neomagus00

lol tui

This is my final sub list; I'm going to go out and have a good, long listening session with each of these, and then decide; after that is when I'll worry about how I'm going to pay for them; and cody, i remember u saying at the beginning of the thread that focal made good stuff, but it's just too far out of my price range; oh well (how does it compare to this stuff, just for reference?)

Adire Audio - crappy looks, amazing specs
Diamond Audio - neato looks, better than decent specs, 'precise' is good
Image Dynamics - great rep, and the fact that several top members of this forum support these is a good thing
Elemental Designs - the fact that several top members of this forum detest these people is not (granted, not everyone hates them, but no more dehlima stuff please); i still like the looks and the numbers, so they're still on my list

I'm thinking US Amps to power whatever I get; it just seems like TruTech would be wasted on a sub: it seems to me that you would hear the difference between them in a higher-frequency driver, but that subs just don't have the nuances for it to make a difference; please, correct me if I'm wrong, though

i may end up with a US Amps Competition series if the output matches - they're stable bridged to 1 ohm :eek: (up to 800 watts, beyond that it's to 2 ohms)

for sq, does it matter what impedence the amp is driving? e.g., will the same amp sound better driving into a 4-ohm load than into a 2-ohm load?

and the trunk thing? is that a problem?

and is there anything that i've forgotten?

TrappedUnder Ice

Good List...wont lose with any of those choices/combo....then get the install done right... !!! thats even more important then the equipment you choose

sntnsupermen131

USAmps is a great choice
for your components get tube amp...ive heard great things
as far as your trunk goes...ive heard ppl with problems with it flexing and stuff, but i have no experience with systems in cars that are that strong, you might have some problems with 3k RMS running through it though
i really have no idea...i guess you could put ports in the rear deck...
but that could cause some "swooshing" issues that come from the air rushing through
i dunno...
you are planning on doing something with your electrical system correct?
-Cody

PoweredByDodge

two points to be made here...

1- i dont wanna sell polk short here.... the full size momo's (mm12 / mm10 -- not the "baby momo" mm2104's or 2124's) will match the IDmax for sound volume as well as durability -- but not one for one -- two of the mm12's will be about as loud and as good sounding (actually a little better frequency response) and handle as much power as one IDmax 12... so if u're up for a 2 sub setup instead of a 1 -- then the momos are no slouches. but if u wanna stick with one (or just want two that'll blow the windshield out) the max is pimp.

2- the IDmax 12 is an amazing driver, and its backed by a fantastic company - customer service is frigging stellar!!! just dont call between 12 and 1-30 pacific time, cuz Fred and Matt take long lunch breaks and are usually moderately drunk or otherwise in-dispose between such times. If you wanna talk to Fred online - he's available at AOL instant messenger handle IMAGE690. good guy -- tell him vinnie gave u his sn. he does some R&D as well as all their repair over there (and some demo work). 1000 - 1200 watts will make that speaker rock -- 1500 (but u damn well better cross it over right and make sure its 'clean' power) will make it do things you never thought possible out of a single speaker. they can be found online for about $275 each in dual 2 or 4 ohm setups as well as retail for around $450. unluckily i bought mine at a time when very few were available -- parts were being held up by a dock worker's strike so almost none were being made -- and I had to buy them from some hauk retailer in arizona (i'm in buffalo ny) for damn near 500 each, but i never complained. they're goin on a year and a half old now and sound as good as the day i bought them, and i'm juicing them with almost 50% over their rated RMS power. one had to go back for a problem with a bad surround (a few of the first generation maxes had too stiff of a surround...) anyway, Fred pulls it apart and checks out the voice coil and former and he's like "you know there's a tiny bit of silvering here, but nothing out of hte normal... whatta you doing, underpowering them?" I was like "nope, actually i'm going well beyond the RMS" ... he was pleasantly surprised.

neomagus00

i dont want to do anything with the electricals that i dont absolutely have to to get the results i want (duh). ie, i would rather sacrifice a teensy bit of spl to not have to parallel a new batt in (i will get a yellow top, tho, that's already a given); as far as power, i want it to sound musical when i feel like it, and i want it to piss off the guy down the street when i feel like that, too.

pbd - how much better frequency response do the polks have then the idmaxes? will i notice it?

sntnsupermen131

1 battery=1 ID max
-Cody

neomagus00

very well; roughly the same for the rest too? the yellowtops are roughly $125 apiece; im not sure i want to spend that to buy the right to spend more on another sub

will 1 idmax + much power = big bang?