Outta money with bloated bass

ROHfan

So after some pricey upgrades the CEO (wifey) has vetoed further expansion propositions. I love my new setup but have noticed that my BIC F12 sub gets a little bloated at times, depending upon the source material. I attribute it to the newer equipment sounding so good that the sub is now the weak link. Before hand it didn't bother me but it now sticks out like a sore thumb.

So I was thinking about a cheapo fix. The sub is to the right of my front stage, in the right corner of my living room, as it is the only place it can be located. I have played with crossover settings and the bloating gets worse at a 100Hz crossover but that is where the fronts really shine. Lowering it to 60hz cleans it up a bit but at the cost of the front speakers' imaging.

I was thinking about experimenting with some acoustic foam located behind the sub on the corner walls. I've considering adding a SubDude, but again, the money thing. I should also note that I have an Onkyo TX-NR818 coming on Monday to replace my Marantz so maybe Audyssey XT-32 may tame the bass issue a bit. I know a better sub is probably the best fix but that will have to wait for a while. Any input is appreciated.

rpf65

You may try making sure you are at least a foot away from each of the walls, 18 inches would be better. Normally adjusting crossovers will help with localization issues, not necessarily performance issues. The issue you're describing would seem to have more to do with sub positioning, or you may want to adjust the volume on the sub. You want auto-cal programs to set the gain a 0 dB, ideally, but usually +/- 5 dB is acceptable.

ROHfan

Neither of those distances are possible with room layout. The sub is placed caddy-corner so it's rear is about 14" away from where the two walls meet.

BlueMDPicker

Check this out and see if it provides any insight: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=48286

Good luck!

rpf65

I believe that sub has a rear port, and you may actually amplifying the port noise by positioning it in the manner you're describing. Anyway to position the sub differently, not caddy-corner to the corner of the walls?

deronb1

Can you plug the port?

treitz3

Are these the exact adjustments you have available on your sub?

Tom

SCompRacer

If moving the sub is not an option, you have tried different sub settings (including phase), foam is not as efficient at absorbing low frequencies as bass trapping. With foam, they may be 100% effective at 500Hz and 30% at 125Hz. If you are down on funds, look at diy bass traps.

WLDock

If you can't move it from the corner, then you just have to hope that XT32 will able to flatten it some.
Please report back as I am after an 818 to see what it does to the LFE sub I am adding to my system. If you have a few bucks you might explore bass traps. Myself, I plan to try some tube traps and wall treatments. Fiberglass is cheap but I might opt for a KNAUF Earthwool product with ECOSE Technology. However, to do it right might require several...so it might not be so cheap to make it effective?

DIY Tube traps
http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/traps/traps.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/17/174817.html
http://www.diy-home-theater-design.com/bass-trap-build.html

Optimizing ASC Tube Traps
http://web.archive.org/web/20040214051741/www.arielaudio.com/OptAsc.html

Fiberglass Pipe Insulation
http://www.amerisafe.net/en/insulation-products/pipe-insulation
http://www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/servlet/the-Pipe-Insulation/Categories

Crazy 6Moons room setup/review
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/theroom/8.html

Other tube trap companies
http://www.tubetrap.com/index.htm
http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/tubetraps
http://www.silentsource.com/basstraps-tubetraps.html

ROHfan

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm always amazed at the wealth of information from fellow Polkers who've been down the same road as I.

rfp65, yes, I can face it straight forward but then it would not be facing me in the main listening position. I will try it, though, as it is an option I can experiment with.

deronb1, I never thought of plugging the port. What can it be plugged with, optimally?

Tom, yes, the F12 has all those settings. Although I use Audyssey and the Marantz to control crossover point, not the adjustments on the sub. What would you suggest?

WLDock, thanks for the suggestions but the traps would never get approved by the boss.

SComp, see above.

SCompRacer

ROHfan wrote: »

WLDock, thanks for the suggestions but the traps would never get approved by the boss.

Even if they looked nice in a fabric and color of her choice? My wife picked out the Guilford of Maine fabric color for the GIK Tri-Traps and panels in our living room. You can even get them with artsy pics on them.

ROHfan

SCompRacer wrote: »

Even if they looked nice in a fabric and color of her choice? My wife picked out the Guilford of Maine fabric color for the GIK Tri-Traps and panels in our living room. You can even get them with artsy pics on them.

She still wouldn't buy it. I suppose if I were to get a few extra side jobs I might be able to sneak in a new purchase. Would you have any recommendations in the $500-$700 range? Not sure what the diminishing returns threshold is with subs but if I were to get a new one I would want to keep it for a while and not have to wonder if I should have went with something better.

deronb1

Try tube socks balled up enough to fill the port. No lie. The port is in the back so aestetics shouldnt becan issue. You might be surprised.

ken brydson

Careful plugging a port if the sub isn't designed for it. Surprised nobody had mentioned it but IMO running ML's with an entry level sub screams for a sub upgrade. Again, JMHO...

ROHfan

ken brydson wrote: »

Careful plugging a port if the sub isn't designed for it. Surprised nobody had mentioned it but IMO running ML's with an entry level sub screams for a sub upgrade. Again, JMHO...

That's the road I started thinking about traveling. I wouldn't know where to begin with a new sub. The SVS SB1000 looks interesting and I also made the mistake of looking at the Velodyne Optimum 12-inch sub.

ken brydson

ROHfan wrote: »

That's the road I started thinking about traveling. I wouldn't know where to begin with a new sub. The SVS SB1000 looks interesting and I also made the mistake of looking at the Velodyne Optimum 12-inch sub.

If you're considering SVS give them a call. Let them know your room size, equipment, listening habits, budget etc and they'll recommend your best option(s). Their CS is top notch and I guarantee they won't try to oversell you.

drummer86

Same goes for HSU. Customer service is great and I think the VTF subs offer a bit more tweaking options with the optional port plugs and extra knobs and switches.

My VTF-2 falls right into the price range you mentioned above.

I'd try messing with your current sub first though. You might find the fix you're looking for and as we all know: happy wife = happy life

treitz3

ROHfan wrote: »

Tom, yes, the F12 has all those settings. Although I use Audyssey and the Marantz to control crossover point, not the adjustments on the sub. What would you suggest?

Okay, thanks. I would personally try to do this first. Set the sub down to 40 to 45 Hz, volume set to no more than 15-20%. If you are using Audyssey, re-run the program with the sub settings like this and see what the outcome is. If you can disable the Audyssey altogether, try that with the sub settings the same.

If you like what you hear, have the other half assist you by very slowly adjusting the volume while you are at the listening position to your preferred setting. Also have her switch the phase setting to see which one you prefer, again while you are in the listening position. This should cut out some of the bloating while staying within your current budget of zero dollars until the audio funds resume.

Also, if you are processing the signal with both Audyssey and the Marantz, you *may* be manipulating the signal too much producing bloated bass.

Tom

ROHfan

drummer86 wrote: »

Same goes for HSU. Customer service is great and I think the VTF subs offer a bit more tweaking options with the optional port plugs and extra knobs and switches.

My VTF-2 falls right into the price range you mentioned above.

I'd try messing with your current sub first though. You might find the fix you're looking for and as we all know: happy wife = happy life

I went on the HSU website and did some quick recon. I like the VTF-2 MK4 and that it gets to 18hz. Price is right, too. Although the VTF-1 MK2 would be a better fit aesthetically but I wonder if that trades off the SQ of the VTF-2 a little too much. My room is 13x13 with the right wall open to the kitchen so which do you think I'd be better off with?

ROHfan

treitz3 wrote: »

Also, if you are processing the signal with both Audyssey and the Marantz, you *may* be manipulating the signal too much producing bloated bass.

Tom

Tom, I'm sorry, but I don't really understand your point there. I am under the assumption that when I run Audyssey that it sets the EQ for all speakers and picks a crossover point for the sub. Then the sub just amplifies the signal it receives from the Marantz and doesn't apply any other settings. Am I wrong in that assumption? I am unsure what you mean by the Marantz processing the signal also. Bear with me as I'm really just starting to learn about sub integration. I always looked at it as a "set it and forget it" kind of thing. The Martin Logans changed that mindset.

treitz3

I might have misunderstood. I thought you had mentioned that two separate components were manipulating the sound.

Tom

ROHfan

treitz3 wrote: »

I might have misunderstood. I thought you had mentioned that two separate components were manipulating the sound.

Tom

Ah. I re-read my post and, indeed, I was a little hazy in my statement.

Tom, what is purpose of setting a crossover on the sub's dial before running Audyssey? Again, forgive my bass noob-ness.

treitz3

To basically lower the potential for bloom at the bottom. This will affect what Audyssey sees and subsequently adjusts.

Tom

ROHfan

treitz3 wrote: »

To basically lower the potential for bloom at the bottom. This will affect what Audyssey sees and subsequently adjusts.

Tom

Okay, I see...sounds logical. I will try that and post my results in this thread. Although I'm REALLY liking that VTF-2 mk4 a LOT.

rpf65

Reading more comments, and if you're considering a new sub, I would advise you to seriously consider a sealed sub. Although a ported version, all things being equal, will dig lower, for your room I think a sealed version will be a better choice. This is assuming that future plans don't include moving.

Understand the tight real estate and WAF requirements, but if you have an open floor plan, those additional areas that don't have a door will need to be taken into consideration. Subs are a little different than the rest of your speakers. This is why they can make down firing subs, and not down firing mains.

SVS has a SB 12 NSD outlet in your price range. Unless you have a huge kitchen, this will probably work. Just a guess on limited info, but if you e-mail SVS with room, and any other room that can't be isolated by closing a door, include the cubic foot measurement, they will reply pretty quickly.

One more thought, just moving your sub left or right 6 inches can make a huge difference.

ROHfan

rpf65 wrote: »

Reading more comments, and if you're considering a new sub, I would advise you to seriously consider a sealed sub. Although a ported version, all things being equal, will dig lower, for your room I think a sealed version will be a better choice. This is assuming that future plans don't include moving.

Not sure if I want to sacrifice how deep the sub digs by going with a sealed one. I read that sealed is better for music but I would need one that goes great with music AND movies. Is there one that does both between 500-1k?

ken brydson

ROHfan wrote: »

Not sure if I want to sacrifice how deep the sub digs by going with a sealed one. I read that sealed is better for music but I would need one that goes great with music AND movies. Is there one that does both between 500-1k?

Both of your considerations between SVS and HSU have both ported and sealed that will meet your needs and budget. personally I would go with a good ported model for dual purpose.

rpf65

I can think of 2, off hand that will fit. From SVS, the PB 2000, or PB 12 NSD outlet, are both ported. Really suggest you look at SB 2000. A sealed sub, but it will work really well for HT, especially for space limited application. The 2 ported versions are front ported, which will negate any port noise gain from the corners in your room. The sealed one will probably also work, and your wife will like the smaller foot print.

Just throwing this out there, slightly above your price range. Look at HSU ULS-15. Another sealed sub, but according to HSU will dig to 15 HZ, but think audio advisor measured it to 20 HZ. Any of these 4 will probably change you into a bass head.

Yes, sealed is a more musical sub, but some musical subs are really good for HT. SVS has graphs, and usually track really close with independent testing.

ken brydson

rpf65 wrote: »

I can think of 2, off hand that will fit. From SVS, the PB 2000, or PB 12 NSD outlet, are both ported. Really suggest you look at SB 2000. A sealed sub, but it will work really well for HT, especially for space limited application. The 2 ported versions are front ported, which will negate any port noise gain from the corners in your room. The sealed one will probably also work, and your wife will like the smaller foot print.

Just throwing this out there, slightly above your price range. Look at HSU ULS-15. Another sealed sub, but according to HSU will dig to 15 HZ, but think audio advisor measured it to 20 HZ. Any of these 4 will probably change you into a bass head.

Yes, sealed is a more musical sub, but some musical subs are really good for HT. SVS has graphs, and usually track really close with independent testing.

Agreed on most points but if space is an issue I'd suggest one of the PC models. Small footprint and TOP ported.

WLDock

ROHfan wrote: »

Not sure if I want to sacrifice how deep the sub digs by going with a sealed one. I read that sealed is better for music but I would need one that goes great with music AND movies. Is there one that does both between 500-1k?

Since you have a small room, electrostatics mains and center, and already have bloated bass maybe a large sealed sub is what you are after? Here is a nice one: http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/outlet-center/products/xs15b

Can save some if you can DIY.

Stereo Integrity HT 15" D4(2-Ohm)- $145
http://stereointegrity.com/index.php?id=57

1x600 Watt TAS5630 Class-D Amplifier Board - $84.90
http://www.parts-express.com/1x600w-tas5630-class-d-amplifier-board--320-311

48 VDC 12.5A 600W Regulated Power Supply - $129
http://www.parts-express.com/48-vdc-125a-600w-regulated-power-supply--320-317

DIY Sound Group Flat Pack - $80 (Or build your own, either way you can paint, laminate, veneer to match decor )
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-flatpacks-2/sealed-subwoofer-flatpacks/3-sub-flat-pack.html

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$438.90 + cost of S/H & other necessities

ROHfan

Thanks for the suggestions, Dock, but I am really gravitating towards the VTF-2 from Hsu. I like the adjustability of that sub with 2 ports to experiment with and the tightness control. It seems to be the best of both worlds as one can switch from movies to music with a few adjustments or different port configurations.