Good speakers for low powered 2 ch setup

felipe

Nightfall wrote: »

My advice was ignored. Maybe if it comes from a senior member...

I didn't ignore your advice Nightfall... . I actually took it into consideration. The thing is my volume is digital with a rotary knob lol. I figured that the 10 and 11 o'clock position would translate to 20 -25 on my volume...which I did:-). You can view the other posts on this thread to see why i did what I did if u like ;-). Thank you for your advice...it really did help :-).

felipe

cnh wrote: »

What's the ohm rating of the speakers that came with the unit? And when you say 25 watts is that x 2 and at what impedance. Because 25 watts at 3 ohms is not going to be much at 8 ohms?

The Pioneers are not as inefficient as those ratings might lead one to believe, I've run them at reasonable volumes on a Lepai T-amp that probably only puts out 7 watts x 2 @ 8 ohms or less. Yeah, they're not going to bring the house down but few speakers will do that on flea amps. If you want something like that you'll have to get some old school Klipsch horns, which will probably sound awful on your unit?




cnh

I take it you own a pair of those pioneers? I agree the sensitivity rating is a little misleading. I did notice that there is no minimum wattage rating. Does that mean they can run decent with "flea" amps??

felipe

I just acquired a pair of "sort of vintage" Polk R40s from a friend of mine. They didn't pan out for what I got them for, but they sound remarkably similar to the pioneers. With the R40s being more efficient (90db), I'm going to do a comparison of the two. May the best speaker win ;-).

felipe

I have to say that these R40s are not too shabby at all! I just did an A/B comparison with these and the pioneers got recently. Honestly, these polks, with this setup, outshined the pioneers IMO. Take the pioneers...then add better lows ( obviously...two 51/4 drivers vs. One 4 driver), and improved highs..more vivid and detailed. Most of all...they're significantly louder...while maintaining accuracy of sound. Sometimes newer deosnt mean better...these R 40s are proof of that. Not bad for being the entry-level series speaker ;-).

felipe

DSkip wrote: »

I can say that those polks won't scale as well as the pioneers will on nicer gear. Glad you're having fun and enjoying your collection of gear.

It seems like the pioneers were kinda meant to be used with nicer gear...not really " budget" gear so to speak ;-). I guess for the heck of it I can see how they compare to my tsi100s in my HT setup...couldn't hurt lol.

felipe

Well...I gotta give the R40s back. My other half didn't approve of them :-( . She liked the pioneers better because they don't have to be placed on the floor, so the pioneers are here to stay lol. Got some freed up space in my entertainment center...gunna setup my 2ch system there and see if/the new location will make a difference. Got a few locations to place the pioneers...see what happens.

felipe

Just finished setting up the 2ch system. Placement DOES play a role in how speakers sound. These pioneers now are alive! Everything about them as improved...including how loud they play . Now I see what the rave reviews on these are about . Thanks for all of your advice!:)

cnh

felipe wrote: »

I take it you own a pair of those pioneers? I agree the sensitivity rating is a little misleading. I did notice that there is no minimum wattage rating. Does that mean they can run decent with "flea" amps??

felipe wrote: »

Just finished setting up the 2ch system. Placement DOES play a role in how speakers sound. These pioneers now are alive! Everything about them as improved...including how loud they play . Now I see what the rave reviews on these are about . Thanks for all of your advice!:)

Glad everything worked out for you!

And yes, I do own a pair of these. Bought them to see what the "reviews" were about because they NEVER impressed me at the BB. It's hard to DEMO anything there!

I now use the Pioneers as a test system. In other words, I have them on an old vintage JVC receiver and a Sony CDP and I play any CDs I've recently bought on that system as background music so as to see which of the recently bought CDs I want to listen to more carefully.

With a good SUB filling out the very bottom, you'll be pleased with the Pioneers.

Enjoy!

cnh

mhardy6647

I wouldn't recommend them for a true fleapower amplifier - but that doesn't mean that, depending on music, room, and preferred listening level, that they might not be enjoyable with low-powered amplification.

As a reference point, my daily driver amplifier is a single-ended ("class A") amp using a direct-heated triode vacuum tube called the 2A3 for output - this is good for about 3.5 watts per channel. For me, "fleapower" is really one watt or less.

cnh

Good point, Mark. The Lepai does not qualify for your def. of fleapower and one should be careful with the volume, in any case. One reason I moved them to the JVC which is 35 watts x 2. More than enough for my purposes.

I remember hearing a 8 watt x 2 tube amp a while back that had no problem driving some KLH 17s to room filling sound at decent db levels! So I can believe you use a 3.5 watter. I also know that what you're driving with that has an efficiency rating that is off the charts!

cnh

mhardy6647

Not to nitpick ;-) but the quantity we're interested in here is sensitivity - which is typically expressed as speaker acoustic output (SPL, sound pressure level) in dB at some fixed measuring distance (typically 1 meter) for a given power input (typically 1 watt, which is 2.83 volts into 8 ohms). I do agree that the nominal sensitivity is, at best, a rough guide to what's really (IMO) the important parameter - how the speakers will sound driven by a given amplifier.

In terms of SPL (loudness, if you will) - here's the thing: 90 dB is pretty darned loud. A speaker with, say a sensitivity of 83 dB SPL @ 1 meter for 1 watt input can be reasonably expected to produce... 83 dB at 1 meter with 1 watt in! :-) Doubling power adds 3 dB, so the same speaker will provide (more or less) 86 dB for 2 watts input, 89 dB for 4 watts input, etc. I kid you not, 89 dB is pretty loud. And the 1 dB difference from 89 to the aforementioned 90 dB is, most folks would agree, 'barely audible'.

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/noisehearingconservation/


http://www.etymotic.com/technology/ihp.html

That said, how good that 89 dB will sound will depend on lots of things! I'll leave it at that, except to say that I am an empiricist - I like to try things and see what happens.

As an extremely glib rule of thumb, simple speakers will generally fare better with low power amplifiers (all else being equal). So-called full-range speakers (a single driver with no electrical crossover components) will often be a very 'synergistic' load for a fleapower amplifer. The Japanese company Fostex, for example, specializes in the manufacture of such drivers and also offers come enclosure/system kits - see www.madisound.com.

Another classic example is (and I think I mentioned these before) the vintage, classic EPI (Epicure Products, Inc.) model 100. This was a small two way, sealed box speaker of the 1970s that used an 8" woofer, a novel concave-dome "air spring" tweeter, and the simplest possible crossover (first order, just a capacitor, to the tweeter) - the woofer 'ran free. The EPI 100 was, and is a fine-sounding speaker that, even though it used the "acoustic suspension" enclosure design, would work well with even very low powered amplifiers.


EPI 110C by mhardy6647, on Flickr

^^^ This is the extremely similar EPI 110C - essentially the same speaker in a slightly larger enclosure.

... and... don't try any of this with a pair of Magneplanars ;-)

Coda:

So... in my basement in the old house, I had a pair of Acoustic Research (original company) AR-3 loudspeakers (notoriously insensitive and power-hungry) driven by a ca. 10 watt per channel Maggotbox (Magnavox) console hifi amp (push-pull EL84 output tubes). Nearfield, with the kinds of music I like, I found the combination completely satisfactory. Most folks would not even try such a combination.


EL84PPstereoconsole by mhardy6647, on Flickr

(yes, these were the world's ugliest AR-3s!)

EDIT: Yes, the sensitivity of my daily driver speakers is pretty much off the charts; ca. 104 dB @ 1 meter for 1 watt input :-)

felipe

cnh wrote: »

Glad everything worked out for you!

And yes, I do own a pair of these. Bought them to see what the "reviews" were about because they NEVER impressed me at the BB. It's hard to DEMO anything there!

I now use the Pioneers as a test system. In other words, I have them on an old vintage JVC receiver and a Sony CDP and I play any CDs I've recently bought on that system as background music so as to see which of the recently bought CDs I want to listen to more carefully.

With a good SUB filling out the very bottom, you'll be pleased with the Pioneers.

Enjoy!

cnh

+1 on that demoing at BB! Actually, these pioneers on their own have enough bottom end for me...surprisingly. These easily compete with the bottom end of my tsi100s. I'm thinking its placement...or maybe they're starting to really break in now ;-). I'm very pleased with these.

felipe

DSkip wrote: »

Agreed Mr. H. As far as efficiency goes, I do feel it can be a tad misleading. Some speakers just shine on low power when they probably shouldn't, like my 6311's or the new LsiM series. Obviously I'm getting more out of my 845's, but it's still low enough to differentiate those who can and can't with low power.

+1 on misleading efficiency ratings. I thought these pioneers (85db) wouldn't even get moving on my 25 watt/ch micro system. I was wrong;-)...it gets plenty loud for me.

felipe

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Not to nitpick ;-) but the quantity we're interested in here is sensitivity - which is typically expressed as speaker acoustic output (SPL, sound pressure level) in dB at some fixed measuring distance (typically 1 meter) for a given power input (typically 1 watt, which is 2.83 volts into 8 ohms). I do agree that the nominal sensitivity is, at best, a rough guide to what's really (IMO) the important parameter - how the speakers will sound driven by a given amplifier.

In terms of SPL (loudness, if you will) - here's the thing: 90 dB is pretty darned loud. A speaker with, say a sensitivity of 83 dB SPL @ 1 meter for 1 watt input can be reasonably expected to produce... 83 dB at 1 meter with 1 watt in! :-) Doubling power adds 3 dB, so the same speaker will provide (more or less) 86 dB for 2 watts input, 89 dB for 4 watts input, etc. I kid you not, 89 dB is pretty loud. And the 1 dB difference from 89 to the aforementioned 90 dB is, most folks would agree, 'barely audible'.

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/noisehearingconservation/


http://www.etymotic.com/technology/ihp.html

That said, how good that 89 dB will sound will depend on lots of things! I'll leave it at that, except to say that I am an empiricist - I like to try things and see what happens.

As an extremely glib rule of thumb, simple speakers will generally fare better with low power amplifiers (all else being equal). So-called full-range speakers (a single driver with no electrical crossover components) will often be a very 'synergistic' load for a fleapower amplifer. The Japanese company Fostex, for example, specializes in the manufacture of such drivers and also offers come enclosure/system kits - see www.madisound.com.

Another classic example is (and I think I mentioned these before) the vintage, classic EPI (Epicure Products, Inc.) model 100. This was a small two way, sealed box speaker of the 1970s that used an 8" woofer, a novel concave-dome "air spring" tweeter, and the simplest possible crossover (first order, just a capacitor, to the tweeter) - the woofer 'ran free. The EPI 100 was, and is a fine-sounding speaker that, even though it used the "acoustic suspension" enclosure design, would work well with even very low powered amplifiers.


EPI 110C by mhardy6647, on Flickr

^^^ This is the extremely similar EPI 110C - essentially the same speaker in a slightly larger enclosure.

... and... don't try any of this with a pair of Magneplanars ;-)

Coda:

So... in my basement in the old house, I had a pair of Acoustic Research (original company) AR-3 loudspeakers (notoriously insensitive and power-hungry) driven by a ca. 10 watt per channel Maggotbox (Magnavox) console hifi amp (push-pull EL84 output tubes). Nearfield, with the kinds of music I like, I found the combination completely satisfactory. Most folks would not even try such a combination.


EL84PPstereoconsole by mhardy6647, on Flickr

(yes, these were the world's ugliest AR-3s!)

EDIT: Yes, the sensitivity of my daily driver speakers is pretty much off the charts; ca. 104 dB @ 1 meter for 1 watt input :-)

Wooow! That's a ridiculous sensitivity rating! According to that chart, given my efficiency rating of 85db, at 16 watts the SPL of my system will reach 97db? That's pretty darn loud! Not bad for a low- powered setup ;-)

mhardy6647

Nominally, yes. Sixteen watts input could be expected to produce 97 dB SPL at a distance of 1 meter from one speaker of 85 dB sensitivity.... not necessarily from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, though... and it might not sound good doing it.

felipe

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Nominally, yes. Sixteen watts input could be expected to produce 97 dB SPL at a distance of 1 meter from one speaker of 85 dB sensitivity.... not necessarily from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, though... and it might not sound good doing it.

Oh...I understand now lol. All in all, SQ IMO is what matters. I'd rather have clear good sound than loud not so good sound...but enough volume to get you moving tho lol ;-)

mhardy6647

As the musclecar guys like(d) to say, so is it also for loudspeaker systems:

there's no replacement for displacement

:-)


DSC_8059 by mhardy6647, on Flickr

txcoastal1

And depending on what you are listening to there are dips in that curve and rely on a little "headroom"

MrH you have posted pics of that room a few times over the last couple years and I am still green w/envy....my gear would love it

cnh

mhardy6647 wrote: »

As the musclecar guys like(d) to say, so is it also for loudspeaker systems:



:-)


DSC_8059 by mhardy6647, on Flickr

Sooner or later I'll get my ears on those! What a nice space. And a wonderful tutorial above. I hope I did not confuse anyone with my "poetic laxity", efficiency, sensitivity, etc. Remember what they say about "lumpers" and "splitters"?

And outside of certain forums which must remain unnamed, not all watts are equal nor the amps that provide us with them. lol

And now you have me curious as to what EPI 100s might sound like on the Lepai?

cnh

mhardy6647

cnh wrote: »

Sooner or later I'll get my ears on those!

You have a standing invitation :-)

And now you have me curious as to what EPI 100s might sound like on the Lepai?

cnh

hmmm... a testable hypothesis ;-) I have a pair of 100Vs (the vinyl-covered, economy version) but I (still) need to refoam them - the 110Cs are good to go. I just have to find my Lepai in the post-move jumble in the basement!

cnh

Many thanks, Mark. In the meantime we can compare notes. I'll put the Lepai on my 100Vs tomorrow and give them a whirl.

Those T-amps are so small, it's tough to keep track of them. If they're not in service they're usually in a box of wires and such.

cnh

felipe

+1 on getting my ear on those lol.

felipe

cnh wrote: »

Glad everything worked out for you!

And yes, I do own a pair of these. Bought them to see what the "reviews" were about because they NEVER impressed me at the BB. It's hard to DEMO anything there!

I now use the Pioneers as a test system. In other words, I have them on an old vintage JVC receiver and a Sony CDP and I play any CDs I've recently bought on that system as background music so as to see which of the recently bought CDs I want to listen to more carefully.

With a good SUB filling out the very bottom, you'll be pleased with the Pioneers.

Enjoy!

cnh

Since you own these as well, just curious as to why there is no minimum wattage rating? Would you know the reason? I'm just curious that's all ;-)

mhardy6647

felipe, if you get to New England... c'mon by! We can arrange a 'demo' :-)

Pycroft

My first bookshelf polk speaker was the Monitor 7B - it is a rockstar set of speakers, and I though sounded amazing for small speakers (I'm a big speaker guy). I wish I kept them! I'd keep my eye out on craigslist. If you're patient, you can usually find something along those lines.

James

mhardy6647

Fine loudspeakers they (Monitor 7 family members, that is) were and still are...
y'know, some folks would consider Monitor 7s "big speakers"... neither you nor I... but some folks would...

;-)

cnh

Can't disagree there. Certainly if you wanted to step up a little from the Pioneers. Vintage Polk Monitor 7s would be a nice move! I love mine.

On another note. I'm home for the afternoon and I got my Lepai running the EPI 100Vs. So far just listening to the FM with the Lepai at 1/3 volume the EPIs are putting out between 87/88 dbs which is plenty loud for my basement room which is long but only 10 ft wide so I'm about 6-7 feet from the speakers.

The sound is VERY clean. With a little LESS bass weight (but the bass is acceptable) than I get with my Pioneer SX-838 [50 watts x 2 and 35lbs or so] (which usually runs these with a LAB 395 TT and an old Sony CDP). More to come but I'm hesitant to go to 1/2 volume. Maybe later.

In any case, this seems like a feasible starter system for someone. Can't believe this tiny T-amp can push these as well as it does.

cnh

mhardy6647

Just got a sales flyer e-mail from PartsExpress - they've got the cheap-jack little Lepai LP-2020A+ on sale for $19.88 :-P

cnh

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Just got a sales flyer e-mail from PartsExpress - they've got the cheap-jack little Lepai LP-2020A+ on sale for $19.88 :-P

I saw that. Thinking of picking up another one for my daughter. Want to put some vintage speakers in her room for her laptop, etc. I have some Wharfedale Denton 2XPs that are very nice and don't need much in the way of power?

Picked up a while ago for $10. and with $20 for the Lepai. That's a $30 system!

cnh

mhardy6647

Based on the one I have, it really, truly is a very respectable little amplifier - even with its rather meager little 'wall wart' power supply.