Polk LSiM703 vs Sonus Faber Concerto vs Vienna Acoustic Haydn

msg

Anyone have any experience with Sonus Faber Concerto or Vienna Acoustic Haydn?
I'm interested in general comparison notes/thoughts of these or other capable bookshelf speakers with respect to the LSiM703 in general, but more specifically with respect to full, warm midrange response and smooth, tame highs. I'm looking for a full, warm and relaxing speaker.

dhart's post seems to confirm for me that I'm not the only one with questions as to whether the 703 is the right fit.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?158271-LSIM-703...What-s-the-heck-is-wrong-with-ME

In the contributions to his post, I'm reminded again of speaker break in period, and how apparently a lot of speakers mellow with use, so that's encouraging, but in the interest of broadsword chops here and in the absence of opportunity to easily audition multiple speakers, I'm looking for input and recommendations on bookshelf speakers (or even modest floor standers) that are full, rich and warm, and somewhat forgiving of less than ideal system build components like cables, source, room, etc. Again, not ruling these out as significant contributing factors in aggregate, but my understanding - and please correct me if I'm wrong - is that all things being mostly equal and relatively addressed, these things make for more subtle improvements than the selection of a speaker when used with any decent amplifier, preamp/AVR, and digital source.

Mikey081057

Are you asking about the SF Concertino (bookshelf) or Concerto (floorstanding).

I have a set of 703's with VR3 Fortress mods, and would rate them above the SF Concertino's . There are a few versions of the concertino as they have been around a while but the 703's have a much more refined low end and like DSkip said sound great with tubes.

A set of used or refurb 703's with a little Trey VR3 magic will perform way above most anything at their price point.

Of course this is just my opinion and you should listen for your self

msg

DSkip wrote: »

I'd take the 703 over the Haydn. The Haydn is nice, but I like the 703's ability to sounds phenomenal on low power-high current tube setups. The 703 digs deeper and fills a room a lot easier. The Haydn is more detailed, but I think you'd like it less than the 703 based off your other post. You do have to work those drivers in. The bass will start to fill in more and more as you get more hours on them, giving you the fuller range the speaker is capable of. Never judge any speaker off their fresh-out-of-the-box sound.

No experience with the Concerto so can't comment on that one.

thanks for that input DSkip; def sounds like I need to get the time in on the 703's
I have to be missing something simple with this missing fullness and warmth.
I can experiment more with source, room and cables some while I break them in.

Mikey081057 wrote: »

Are you asking about the SF Concertino (bookshelf) or Concerto (floorstanding).
I have a set of 703's with VR3 Fortress mods, and would rate them above the SF Concertino's . There are a few versions of the concertino as they have been around a while but the 703's have a much more refined low end and like DSkip said sound great with tubes.
A set of used or refurb 703's with a little Trey VR3 magic will perform way above most anything at their price point.
Of course this is just my opinion and you should listen for your self

oh okay, I thought they were both Concertos, and the Grand Piano was the floor standing version.

I think I read briefly about the VR3 Fortress mod a few weeks back; I'll need to review to see what that's all about. I'm not really sure how it's supposed to change or improve the sound. all I remember is being in awe of the beauty of that work.

I'm just looking for a fuller sound. warm, relaxing and laid back. I just remember first noticing this years ago with an old Realistic STA-84 receiver playing a local classical radio station through some old Pioneer 4-way floor standing speakers, just for some background music while studying. I remember at the time, I curiously switched the speakers to a "modern" Onkyo TX-910 stereo receiver, and immediately noticed that the warmth and fullness was gone. I haven't been able to capture that experience since, even with recent efforts with higher end stuff than I've ever had the opportunity to work with before. this is what I am after if this makes sense.

Mikey081057

msg wrote: »

thanks for that input DSkip; def sounds like I need to get the time in on the 703's
I have to be missing something simple with this missing fullness and warmth.
I can experiment more with source, room and cables some while I break them in.


oh okay, I thought they were both Concertos, and the Grand Piano was the floor standing version.

I think I read briefly about the VR3 Fortress mod a few weeks back; I'll need to review to see what that's all about. I'm not really sure how it's supposed to change or improve the sound. all I remember is being in awe of the beauty of that work.

I'm just looking for a fuller sound. warm, relaxing and laid back. I just remember first noticing this years ago with an old Realistic STA-84 receiver playing a local classical radio station through some old Pioneer 4-way floor standing speakers, just for some background music while studying. I remember at the time, I curiously switched the speakers to a "modern" Onkyo TX-910 stereo receiver, and immediately noticed that the warmth and fullness was gone. I haven't been able to capture that experience since, even with recent efforts with higher end stuff than I've ever had the opportunity to work with before. this is what I am after if this makes sense.

LSIM's with tubes is a sweet setup, and the great thing about tubes in your 2 channel rig is that you can get the sound you want with just rolling a few tubes. If you become satisfied with your rig, you will be the first one here to do so. It is getting increasingly difficult to get out and hear things today, but a lot of places offer 30 day return policies... now sometimes 30 days may not be enough time to break in a pair of speakers or any other component, but for the most part quality stuff gets better after break in.

Mikey081057

And I stand corrected there is a Concerto bookshelf also... I have not heard them, but seem to have a 7" driver opposed to the 6.5" concertino. (perhaps maybe:) They look similar

msg

DSkip wrote: »

What's the rest of the rig?

I'm still in very early acquisition and build, trying to pick up some nice stuff from the pre-owned market, so right now, it's:

1. Parasound Halo C2
2. Parasound HCA-2205A amplifier
3. Source is mainly a Squeezebox Touch for Spotify. I'm not sure what the bitrate is through the SBT; still casually researching this; can't seem to find anything definitive. may try it through a notebook for testing since Spotify says 320Kbps through the desktop client
4. LSiM703 fronts (playing with 706c center and Monitor 10's)

I think I'm migrating to B&K Sonata amplifiers. I have an EX442, and going to try a Video5 for my multichannel needs. it's significantly lower than the Parasound 2205 spec wise (105wpc, 30A peak per channel vs 220wpc 60A peak per channel), but I probably don't need that much amp anymore since I'm going with smaller speakers, and I'm looking more for warm, smooth response.

Not sure where I'll end up with the pre/pro yet. I do miss the functionality of a more modern AVR/pre/pro.

I'm trying to build a combination system at this point with bias toward music. Doesn't need to be McIntosh-2155-dedicated 2ch good, but I'll take it as good as I can get it. HT is more a footnote, 20-30% consideration at best.

maybe it is going to take something tubey, though.

Mikey081057 wrote: »

LSIM's with tubes is a sweet setup, and the great thing about tubes in your 2 channel rig is that you can get the sound you want with just rolling a few tubes. If you become satisfied with your rig, you will be the first one here to do so. It is getting increasingly difficult to get out and hear things today, but a lot of places offer 30 day return policies... now sometimes 30 days may not be enough time to break in a pair of speakers or any other component, but for the most part quality stuff gets better after break in.

well that's encouraging, haha
yeah, that's what I'm finding. and most of the obvious places here locally don't seem to stock anything special. I keep saying this, but I really need to do some digging locally to see if there are any shops or groups.

msg

Mikey081057 wrote: »

And I stand corrected there is a Concerto bookshelf also... I have not heard them, but seem to have a 7" driver opposed to the 6.5" concertino. (perhaps maybe:) They look similar

yeah, I had to read up on that too - I didn't even know where was a Concertino, but apparently it's got a 5.5" driver as opposed to, yes, the 7" in the Concerto. I'd love to have ready access to a bunch of different speakers.

Mikey081057

So I use a SB Touch input to my Marantz SA8004 dac section, and I am very impressed by it. Especially great for just finding and trying new stuff. Your C2 does have digital inputs so you you should be able to get the 320Kbps from Spotify with a whatever they call their premium subscription. I still don't understand why the SB is discon'd but they now sell for more than list even used... go figure. I want to upgrade the Power Supply on the Touch too as my reading says it would help.


Listening to my 703's now, and have listened to them side by side with my LSI9's, and there are strengths to both, but the 703 is clearly more versatile and requires less power to make it sing.

msg

DSkip wrote: »

Do lossless files and go from there. The LSiM series are quite revealing and what you might be hearing is the limitations of the media. Don't give up on the LSiM's yet as I don't think your issue is the speaker itself - I think its the flaws they are now showing in the rest of your rig. Your Parasounds should play nice with them, but again, they are limited by what they're fed.

thanks, yes, I'll work next on trying to ensure more lossless delivery and get the speakers broken in.

Mikey081057 wrote: »

So I use a SB Touch input to my Marantz SA8004 dac section, and I am very impressed by it. Especially great for just finding and trying new stuff. Your C2 does have digital inputs so you you should be able to get the 320Kbps from Spotify with a whatever they call their premium subscription. I still don't understand why the SB is discon'd but they now sell for more than list even used... go figure. I want to upgrade the Power Supply on the Touch too as my reading says it would help.

Listening to my 703's now, and have listened to them side by side with my LSI9's, and there are strengths to both, but the 703 is clearly more versatile and requires less power to make it sing.

cool, another Squeezebox user!
yeah, I don't understand why they discontinued the product, either. I, too, have seen the price skyrocket now due to lack of availability. they're selling for 3x the cost of when I bought mine new a couple of years ago. it's a little buggy at times, sometimes hangs up and shuts down or restarts, and the gui could use a little work, but it was the best thing I found at the time to use as a control point for all my streaming service needs, and I still enjoy and use it daily. I use it even for access to local HD radio instead of an HD tuner. I like quality audio, but I am also looking for balance between quality and convenience. I'm pretty sure I can get both to my relative satisfaction with some measure of reasonable compromise.

and yes, I've seen that there are some cool mods you can make to the SBT! think I came across a couple of forums or websites a couple of weeks ago. what does upgrading the power supply do?
here's one thing I wanted to look into more - the Touch Toolbox 3.0 - http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/11/touch-toolbox-30.html

I do have the Squeezebox outputting to the Halo C2 over optical, so I can use the C2's DAC, although it's aged.
I do subscribe to Spotify for the benefits the premium account offers.

that Marantz SA8004 looks like a nice CDP. I'm wondering about the Oppo BDP-105.

Mikey081057

The upgraded PS for the SBT should deliver quieter more consistent power. I think iam going to get the one from Tera Dak. There are a few out there along with one from Welbourne Labs but their customer service gets hammered alot.

Dawgfish

Quite honestly I would recommend going with a tube pre before replacing the 703s, or at least get some tubes in the mix somewhere. You can also try a tube buffer between your source and pre, or pre and amp. That would give a relatively inexpensive option for trying tubes. Personally I would just cut to the chase and buy a tube pre. Your Parasound pre is very, very nice (along with the rest of your setup, awesome gear!) but the 703s really seem to like tubes. That will go miles towards getting the warmth and soundstage you are looking for (with the right tubes, which are up to your ears but giving your preference for warmth, there are definite recommendations), while retaining the excellent resolution, bass, and dynamics of the 703s. I'm listening to my 703s as I type this. I even decided to swap a solid state amp back in the mix today for grins and giggles. Paired with my tube pre and phono stage, the set-up is very warm and inviting. That's the way I would go, but that's me. Ymmv.

msg

Hey Dawg, I'd really love to see what tubes are all about.
What's a good way to get into one? As in, what are some recommended brands and models I might look into?
Be nice to find something affordable I could mess around with for a sense of what tube audio is all about.

Do you mean anything tube, like even some of these new Chinese made ones on Ebay going pretty cheap, or something more like the Unison Research Absolute 845? It's only $55k, and there was one that went for a mere $17k on Audiogon

F1nut

The LSiM's on Bel Canto amps are impressive.

Sonus Faber makes excellent sounding and looking speakers, one of my favs.

Dawgfish

There are lots of good to great tube pres out there and they don't have to break the bank. If you are willing to go used your options increase even more. I have two tube pres and have no trouble recommending either. One is an Anthem Pre-1L with modded caps. The other is a YS Audio Symphonies Plus R. I paid $450 used for the YS on the Gon and couldn't be happier with it. It's quiet, sounds awesome, has a remote, and has excellent build quality (top quality caps, resistors, volume control, point to point wiring, etc.). You can find the Anthem 1L for around $500 and the 2L for anywhere from $700-1000. The main difference between the two are the 2L has a remote and HT bypass. If you don't need the remote or HT bypass the 1L sounds just as good (some think better). There are lots of fans on CP of the Dared SL2000 pre. You can get them brand new for $450. There are lots of great ones out there from companies like Sonic Frontiers, BAT, Conrad Johnson, Cary, AR, Odyssey, Rogue, etc. that can be found from $600 up. What I would do is get on sites like the FM section here on the board, Audiogon, US Audio Mart, etc. and look for tube pres in your price range. When you find something research it on the web, ask about here on the board, etc. and go from there. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding something nice and in your budget if you are patient. I know patience is not a common virtue in this hobby. You can put me on that list also! Lol!

msg

Dawgfish wrote: »

Quite honestly I would recommend going with a tube pre before replacing the 703s, or at least get some tubes in the mix somewhere. You can also try a tube buffer between your source and pre, or pre and amp. That would give a relatively inexpensive option for trying tubes. Personally I would just cut to the chase and buy a tube pre. Your Parasound pre is very, very nice (along with the rest of your setup, awesome gear!) but the 703s really seem to like tubes. That will go miles towards getting the warmth and soundstage you are looking for (with the right tubes, which are up to your ears but giving your preference for warmth, there are definite recommendations), while retaining the excellent resolution, bass, and dynamics of the 703s. I'm listening to my 703s as I type this. I even decided to swap a solid state amp back in the mix today for grins and giggles. Paired with my tube pre and phono stage, the set-up is very warm and inviting. That's the way I would go, but that's me. Ymmv.

meant to ask in my previous post, but my edit window of opportunity closed...
to clarify, are you noticing any significant difference using the tube pre/ss amp vs the tube/tube amp? indicating that your tube pre is making the most difference?

would you speak a little to the tube buffer you mentioned?

which preamp and amplifiers are you using with such great results from the 703's?

I did notice that, in general, I found the results somewhat more pleasing through a B&K MC-101 preamp and the EX442, and that goes for the three sets of speakers I've had a chance to play with so far. I read that people characterize their stuff with a tubey sound, though not sure how much that applies or directly compares to true tube based gear.

F1nut wrote: »

The LSiM's on Bel Canto amps are impressive.
Sonus Faber makes excellent sounding and looking speakers, one of my favs.

just poked around a little on the Bel Canto stuff. pfwhew-WEE! looks like their stuff would sound nice

I know you're a fan of the 703, but how would you say the Sonus Faber stuff sounds comparatively? is there any basis for comparison in the listening opportunities you've had? just speaking in terms of general sound characteristic fullness in mids and highs.

Dawgfish

I've had great luck with the YS Audio paired with either a Rogue 88 Magnum full tube amp, a Primaluna Prologue 4 full tube amp, and an Anthem Amp 2 SE tube/solid state hybrid with the 703s. The Anthem Pre 1L sounds good with all of the above amps and 703 also . I rotate the different amps from time to time just to change things up. I like the YS Audio and full tube amp combos the best with the 703s, but I'm listening to them with the Amp 2 SE right now and it sounds awesome. I prefer the full tube amps because I get a wider/deeper soundstage. Tonally the Amp 2 SE is very smooth especially with the Ediswan 6922 tubes I'm running with it now.

My point was the 703s like some tubes somewhere in the mix. It doesn't have to be a full on tube pre/tube amp combo. There are many folks who like a tube pre/solid state combo because you get the smoothness and soundstage of tubes with the power and bass of solid state. I think everyone who is interested in two channel audio needs to slip a tube pre in the mix at least once to see what tubes are all about. You may like, you may not. My gut feeling is you will based on the listening preferences you mentioned.

A tube buffer is basically a device that passes your audio signal through one or more tubes to get a taste of the tube sound. Personally I would just go ahead and get a tube pre because they make a bigger difference in sound and are usually made better, not to mention a shorter signal path and the fact that you need another set of interconnects with a tube buffer. If you are on a budget or your just not sure about tubes a tube buffer is a relatively inexpensive way to try tubes in your system. The Grant Fidelity site mentioned above is a good source of tube buffers and info for them.

Btw it's not just the 703s I find sound better with tubes. I prefer everything with tubes at least somewhere in the system, but that's just me.

msg

DSkip wrote: »

Someone PM'ed me recently and said my Shuguang S200mk preamp is selling for under $500 at Grant Fidelity. Check it out. MSRP was twice as much... at $500, its a very nice point to point preamp that offers a hefty remote, four inputs, and two pairs of pre-outs. I basically paid $400 for mine and would do it again in a heartbeat.
My preamp makes every configuration I try sound better, even when its "purpose" is already filled by another piece.
Sonus Faber in general is a more laid back sound. I don't find them fun like the 703's, but I don't find them dull either. I consider them a neutral sounding speaker. I've considered (and still am considering) some of their white venere 1.5 or 2.0's for my bedroom at some point.

in'tresting! and great heads up on the Shuguang. I'll def read up some on that piece.
have you changed all the tubes in yours or are you still using the OE?

Dawgfish wrote: »

I've had great luck with the YS Audio paired with either a Rogue 88 Magnum full tube amp, a Primaluna Prologue 4 full tube amp, and an Anthem Amp 2 SE tube/solid state hybrid with the 703s. The Anthem Pre 1L sounds good with all of the above amps and 703 also . I rotate the different amps from time to time just to change things up. I like the YS Audio and full tube amp combos the best with the 703s, but I'm listening to them with the Amp 2 SE right now and it sounds awesome. I prefer the full tube amps because I get a wider/deeper soundstage. Tonally the Amp 2 SE is very smooth especially with the Ediswan 6922 tubes I'm running with it now.

My point was the 703s like some tubes somewhere in the mix. It doesn't have to be a full on tube pre/tube amp combo. There are many folks who like a tube pre/solid state combo because you get the smoothness and soundstage of tubes with the power and bass of solid state. I think everyone who is interested in two channel audio needs to slip a tube pre in the mix at least once to see what tubes are all about. You may like, you may not. My gut feeling is you will based on the listening preferences you mentioned.

A tube buffer is basically a device that passes your audio signal through one or more tubes to get a taste of the tube sound. Personally I would just go ahead and get a tube pre because they make a bigger difference in sound and are usually made better, not to mention a shorter signal path and the fact that you need another set of interconnects with a tube buffer. If you are on a budget or your just not sure about tubes a tube buffer is a relatively inexpensive way to try tubes in your system. The Grant Fidelity site mentioned above is a good source of tube buffers and info for them.

Btw it's not just the 703s I find sound better with tubes. I prefer everything with tubes at least somewhere in the system, but that's just me.

great little into to tubes here, guys - you've given me more to research and consider. I haven't heard of any of this stuff!
only just poked around the Grant Fidelity site so far, but looks like a good resource for gear and info.


thanks for the input on the Sonus Faber's. I'll prob be holding off on different speakers for a while while I shake out some testing and adjustments with the stuff I already have and try to get a sense of what's what for tube pre's.

dhart86

msg wrote: »

I'm just looking for a fuller sound. warm, relaxing and laid back. I just remember first noticing this years ago with an old Realistic STA-84 receiver playing a local classical radio station through some old Pioneer 4-way floor standing speakers, just for some background music while studying. I remember at the time, I curiously switched the speakers to a "modern" Onkyo TX-910 stereo receiver, and immediately noticed that the warmth and fullness was gone. I haven't been able to capture that experience since, even with recent efforts with higher end stuff than I've ever had the opportunity to work with before. this is what I am after if this makes sense.

Makes total sense to me bro! I think we enjoy similar sound from our speakers as far as I can tell by your description. I made some changes in my system and I am enjoying the 703's much, much more. here is a link to my last post on them. Hope it helps you

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?158271-LSIM-703...What-s-the-heck-is-wrong-with-ME&p=2017832#post2017832

msg

just read your update - nice! congrats on finding the sound you like!!! that's a great feeling when something sounds pleasing to your satisfaction!