What compares to my monitor 5's

Zentish

I bought a pair of Monitor 5's brand new around 1984. I've used them to anchor my system throughout these many years, from simple stereo through 2.1 surround sound all the way to my present 5.1 set up which is

center: polk cs245i
mains: monitor 5 (s/n 1258x)
surround: Klipsch RS-41 II (because they fit perfectly over the door and window)
Subwoofer: Speakerlab DAS-SW (circa 1986 an old ONKYO integrated amp from the mid 1980's directly drives the SUB)
Receiver: ONKYO TX-SR806

My home theater is a modest bedroom, about 12x15 sporting a sectional and a 55" LED Samsung on the long wall.

I'm seriously considering an upgrade to the mains and the center.

...but...

Every time I shop around for new mains I'm not impressed with upgraded speakers that are reasonably sized and priced. I come home, crank up my monitor 5's and think, "these still sound great and I already have them sitting right here." The only speakers that even tempted me were Martin Logan Motion 12's a few years back, replaced with the Motion 40's and run $1900 a pair. I'm all-right with spending a few thousand on some replacements, but they need to sound seriously better than what I have now.

I'm pretty sure I want to upgrade the center to a CsiA6, but want to sort the whole rig out before I commit.

I mostly use the system for movies, but sometimes crank classic and newer alternative rock.

This seems a good place to get some reasonable advice. I obviously like the vintage Polk "natural sound".

- What price point is reasonable to expect a new speaker to outperform my monitor 5's?

- Would I be better off spending a lot less upgrading the crossover and tweeters of my monitor 5's?

- What other speakers should I listen to as reasonable upgrades?

- Is the CsiA4 or A6 a better center channel to match my monitor 5's if I do decide to keep them?

THANKS!

mikemokr

Clearly you need a pair of vintage Monitor 7s!

I'm not really joking. Buying/modding a pair of those, or modding your 5s, would leave you with a vast majority of your stated speaker budget left over in case in the end you still feel an itch to buy something more expensive. And if not, you could pour the savings into any improvements you might need to other parts of your h/t system to help the speakers fully realize their potential. Or take a really nice staycation, or something.

As I've been educating myself lately by searching the incredibly valuable info so generously offered in this forum, I've been building a spreadsheet for mods I'll be doing to my various speakers. I would say, ballpark, parts for reasonably high-end upgrades (including Sonicaps for high pass, Duelund resistors, and the Hurricane nut/Armaflex combo but not Larry's Rings as those are currently unavailable) will run ~$200 for my Model 5s and $250 for the Monitor 7s, before tweeters. Subtract around $45 for Mills instead of Duelund.

Which tweeters do your 5s have? If I'm not mistaken, circa 1984 is when Polk switched from the Peerless (see examples here) to the SL1000. If you have the Peerless I believe the conventional wisdom would be to keep them - plus there's no drop-in upgrade other than a Peerless knockoff one vendor now offers. If you have the SL1000 I believe the CW would be to upgrade posthaste to the drop-in replacement RDO-194-1 for around $100/pair shipped from Polk CS when you tell them you're in Club Polk. (I will keep the Peerless in my 5s and upgrade from SL2000s in my 7s.)

Dropthebeat

Why not just look around on Craigslist for some vintage polks to match your 5s ?

Zentish

mikemokr wrote: »

Clearly you need a pair of vintage Monitor 7s!

Which tweeters do your 5s have? If I'm not mistaken, circa 1984 is when Polk switched from the Peerless (see examples here) to the SL1000. If you have the Peerless I believe the conventional wisdom would be to keep them - plus there's no drop-in upgrade other than a Peerless knockoff one vendor now offers. If you have the SL1000 I believe the CW would be to upgrade posthaste to the drop-in replacement RDO-194-1 for around $100/pair shipped from Polk CS when you tell them you're in Club Polk. (I will keep the Peerless in my 5s and upgrade from SL2000s in my 7s.)

Would I really notice a significant different between monitor 7's over my monitor 5's in such a small room - or would I need to step up to or something like the SDA's CRS?

My 5's do not have peerless tweeters, they're the silver domes with the wires going straight out - I've not removed them to check nor modded them so they're most likely SL1000's.

Hofy

If nothing else, adding Monitor7's as mains and moving the 5's to surround. Also the upgrades listed above is the best bang for your buck.

xjghost

Or you could look for a set of 10's for the mains.

Mystery

Get a pair of Vandersteen 2's fronts with Vandersteen center and you'll go way above and beyond what 5's can do.
If you want to stick with Polk, get Lsi towers and matching center.
Both options can be under/around the budget new and way below for used but you also have to upgrade amp.

mikemokr

Zentish wrote: »

Would I really notice a significant different between monitor 7's over my monitor 5's in such a small room - or would I need to step up to or something like the SDA's CRS?

I only have shreds of experience to be able to try to answer this, myself.

1) I initially bought Monitor 5JRs new in 1986 and twice made use of the store's one-year upgrade policy, first to 5s and then my 7s. Although I never compared the 5s and 7s side-by-side in my room them, I recall definitely noticing a difference. I had a pretty good-sized room but I feel one test of a speaker is how it plays at low volume, pretty much regardless of room dimensions, and I think the Monitor 7s are great at that among many other things.

2) I recently acquired 1978 Model 5s and while my test was short and otherwise imperfect I did run them side-by-side with the 1987 Monitor 7s and the latter seemed to produce a fuller sound overall. This was in a very big room but the 7 was better rounded at low volume too, even with the SL2000 compared to Peerless in the 5s, for a short listen anyway. Again though, the 5s probably were at a disadvantage for other reasons e.g. running off an older lower wpc amp.

3) Re CRS I'd say one main consideration for you is how critical/beneficial SDA is for a primarily h/t rig; my sense is a center channel kinda steps on the whole SDA concept (which predated multichannel, aside from quad). I've read of people using the SDA "phantom" center instead of a physical center, e.g. a 4.1 system (4.0 if no sub). Also critical with SDA is placement and room size - this is from the Polk SDA manual including the CRS+:



I've also recently acquired CRS+ and was able to test them a little in my workshop before I had to send in my old common-ground amp for repair. This is a small space and placement was suboptimal to say the least, yet my initial impression nonetheless was of mind being blown. The imaging and soundstage really have to be heard to be believed. That said, I'm probably at least 80/20 music/movies so I know SDA is for me.

mikemokr

Zentish wrote: »

My 5's do not have peerless tweeters, they're the silver domes with the wires going straight out - I've not removed them to check nor modded them so they're most likely SL1000's.

Just noticed this - if the leads are going straight out and it says Silver Coil Dome I believe that would be the SL2000, also not highly regarded by most here. The RDO-194-1 would be the upgrade path either way.

Zentish

Hofy wrote: »

If nothing else, adding Monitor7's as mains and moving the 5's to surround. Also the upgrades listed above is the best bang for your buck.

My home theater room is both small and has some placement challenges for the surrounds. To the left and right of the seating are a window and door respectively, so I've chosen some smaller surrounds that mount above the door and window. There's certainly no room for the 5's to sit in the back as surrounds. The Klipsch surrounds don't timbre match the mains, but do a decent job for the home theater rig. I picked them because they best fit the space.

There is room for the 7's in the front of the room, but just barely. I'll start looking out for a pair of 7's in my area (Pacific NW).

mikemokr wrote: »

I only have shreds of experience to be able to try to answer this, myself.

1) I initially bought Monitor 5JRs new in 1986 and twice made use of the store's one-year upgrade policy, first to 5s and then my 7s. Although I never compared the 5s and 7s side-by-side in my room them, I recall definitely noticing a difference. I had a pretty good-sized room but I feel one test of a speaker is how it plays at low volume, pretty much regardless of room dimensions, and I think the Monitor 7s are great at that among many other things.

2) I recently acquired 1978 Model 5s and while my test was short and otherwise imperfect I did run them side-by-side with the 1987 Monitor 7s and the latter seemed to produce a fuller sound overall. This was in a very big room but the 7 was better rounded at low volume too, even with the SL2000 compared to Peerless in the 5s, for a short listen anyway. Again though, the 5s probably were at a disadvantage for other reasons e.g. running off an older lower wpc amp.

3) Re CRS I'd say one main consideration for you is how critical/beneficial SDA is for a primarily h/t rig; my sense is a center channel kinda steps on the whole SDA concept (which predated multichannel, aside from quad). I've read of people using the SDA "phantom" center instead of a physical center, e.g. a 4.1 system (4.0 if no sub). Also critical with SDA is placement and room size - this is from the Polk SDA manual including the CRS+:

...

Great information, thanks mikemokr! The SDA seems like both overkill for the space and as primarily home theater use.

At this point I'm really leaning towards keeping the 5's, upgrading their tweeters and crossovers.

Now about the center: The cs-245i is a little weak, should I upgrade to a CSI-A6 or look for somethng else?

My thought is to take the cs-245i and mount it as a rear surround after I upgrade the front center.

boston1450

Agreed with above. Yes a pair of 7's on stands would be perfect for that size room & easier placement than CRS or SDA which need certain placement & equipment to drive them. Easier on the wallet too

mikemokr

Zentish, I guess one question is how critical timbre-matching is to you. I've been giving thought to this for my own h/t system. I have this notion of using vintage Monitors to complement the CRS+. If everything gets TL mods I could have RDO-198-1 tweeters all around, including in the center (more on that below).

But you have the size constraint in the rear. Might Monitor 4s fit there? 14.5"H x 8.5"W x 7.5"D. Now, my understanding (happy to be corrected on this) is that tweeter upgrade options are limited or non-existent with the 4s as they either have the (U.S.) Peerless (in the earliest 4s) or the SL1500, for which Polk does not offer a drop-in replacement; still, maybe that would get you closer in timbre than the Klipschs?

Zentish wrote: »

Now about the center: The cs-245i is a little weak, should I upgrade to a CSI-A6 or look for somethng else?

My thought is to take the cs-245i and mount it as a rear surround after I upgrade the front center.

In my CRS+/Monitor h/t scheme one option I toy with is a 5jr (which if I'm not mistaken can take a TL mod - mine has the SL2000) as the front center. A vintage Monitor might make a more compatible center for your 5s (or 7s if you get them), particularly if you upgrade the tweeter to the same as in the mains.

All fun stuff to think about ...

StantonZ

Zentish wrote: »

At this point I'm really leaning towards keeping the 5's, upgrading their tweeters and crossovers.

Now about the center: The cs-245i is a little weak, should I upgrade to a CSI-A6 or look for somethng else?

My thought is to take the cs-245i and mount it as a rear surround after I upgrade the front center.

Just picked up on this thread and think I can offer some personal experience. You've discovered what many have in that it's "hard to beat a Polk". Given the small size of your room, I would keep the center you have for now and concentrate on getting a pair of 7's (or 10's) as your fronts and move the 5's to the back. Putting anything more than a 5.1 setup in a room that small probably isn't worth the $$, and I would even argue you can do without a sub, especially if you go with a pair of 10's (as I do).

teekay0007

StantonZ wrote: »

Given the small size of your room, I would keep the center you have for now and concentrate on getting a pair of 7's (or 10's) as your fronts and move the 5's to the back.

He said there's no room for the 5's in the back. That's why he's got the Klipsch speakers back there that he seems to be happy with.

JPete

mikemokr wrote: »

Just noticed this - if the leads are going straight out and it says Silver Coil Dome I believe that would be the SL2000, also not highly regarded by most here. The RDO-194-1 would be the upgrade path either way.

Everything I've read here, or elsewhere, supports your statement about that tweeter being a SL2000... BUT, I upgraded my 10B tweeters to the RDOs a few days ago, believing that both tweeters were SL2000s.. They look like every SL2000 I've seen and are both identical. One of the tweeters has a factory label on the back with Nov. 1984 inspection date and is clearly labeled SL1000. The other tweeter also has Nov. 1984 inspection date and is labeled SL2000. Different labels, both with distinct model numbers. Who can explain that? Just labeled wrong at the factory?

Zentish

I popped the tweeter out and it is indeed an SL2000. I'm going to start a new thread to work out the details around upgrading the tweeters and especially the crossover.

Zentish

StantonZ wrote: »

Just picked up on this thread and think I can offer some personal experience. You've discovered what many have in that it's "hard to beat a Polk". Given the small size of your room, I would keep the center you have for now and concentrate on getting a pair of 7's (or 10's) as your fronts and move the 5's to the back. Putting anything more than a 5.1 setup in a room that small probably isn't worth the $$, and I would even argue you can do without a sub, especially if you go with a pair of 10's (as I do).

Several people have recommended that.

Some other thoughts I've had around the mains:

If I were to find some 7's to replace the mains, would it make sense to move one of the 5's to the center position? I know not to lay it on its side, but there may be just enough room under the TV to place the 5 there on the floor.

And if so - am I going to have trouble powering those 7's (or maybe 10's) with my ONKYO AVR. It's a TX-SR806, with ~120WPC and can supposedly drive 7.1.

Mystery

Yes and yes.
Try to match tweeters in the fronts and center.

StantonZ

Zentish wrote: »

Some other thoughts I've had around the mains:

If I were to find some 7's to replace the mains, would it make sense to move one of the 5's to the center position? I know not to lay it on its side, but there may be just enough room under the TV to place the 5 there on the floor.

And if so - am I going to have trouble powering those 7's (or maybe 10's) with my ONKYO AVR. It's a TX-SR806, with ~120WPC and can supposedly drive 7.1.

Yes: I use my 4's as a center (dual, but you can use just one). You shouldn't have a problem driving additional speakers with that AVR if it isn't (already) overheating.

dpage

I've had 4's, 4A's, 5JR's, and 10's. The 10's were significantly better. Though I'm sure you've heard, some people prefer the 7's over the 10's.

I have used both a 5JR and 4 as a center. Both worked great. Monitor 4 is shorter so may fit better in your space.

Zentish

Interesting thought there too, I have a pair of Monitor 4's hiding in the living room. I'm going to try them out as an alternative to my CS245i center.

StantonZ

Zentish wrote: »

Interesting thought there too, I have a pair of Monitor 4's hiding in the living room. I'm going to try them out as an alternative to my CS245i center.

If you had mentioned THAT at the top of the thread it would have made it much shorter ;-)

Zentish

StantonZ wrote: »

If you had mentioned THAT at the top of the thread it would have made it much shorter ;-)

It's funny - as a computer guy I've always believed that when it comes to electronics, newer is better: newer modern materiel's, electronics, technology, etc.

So the idea that these little old speakers I spent $80 a piece for in 1991 are superior to newer stuff now that I have a lot bigger budget is sort of a "blind spot" in my thought process.

The M4's used to be my surrounds, but they didn't fit very well after we turned the home theater room 90 degrees. So i bought some low profile Klipsch's and moved the M4's out into the living room for my zone 2.

I see there a number of different Monitor 4 speakers. Mine say "Monitor Series" and M4 on the rear. I purchased them in 1991 and the receipt says "Polk M4A". Are they truly M4A's or some other variation?

THANKS!

Zentish

I've found some Monitor 10A's and RTA 11T's which will fit my space better than the 10's) on Craigslist.
http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/ele/4320859176.html

I'm kind of leaning towards the 11T's unless folks around here say to stay away from them.

I've done enough research that I feel confident that I can upgrade the tweeters and refurbish the crossover myself.