Length of power cords: Is shorter better? To what length?

Moose68Bash

Caelin Gabriel said:

"Since a power cord is composed of a hot and neutral wire that the component sits between, a change in the length of the cord will increase the size of the "buffer" around the component. In general, I would not recommend a power cord that is shorter than 3 feet or 1 meter in length."

Any opinions about this statement?

I have to confess that I was of "shorter is better" frame of mind until I read this. This guy knows his stuff, so now I wonder.

tonyb

I seriously doubt you'd hear a difference because of a foot or 2.

BlueFox

Ask him directly. There are at least three sites with manufacturer's forums that he uses to answer questions.

http://www.audioaficionado.org/
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forum.php
http://audioshark.org/forum.php

He has explained this before, but I have forgotten the tecnical aspect. However, he also is not trying to take your money, and explains that it is easier to resell a longer cord, and if you ever move your gear around then the shorter cord might limit you. They do offer a slightly shorter cord as an umbilical cord for the Typhon. However, that is a special case for a piece of gear designed as an add-on for a Triton.

John K.

Moose, if the author of that statement "knows his stuff", the quoted language certainly doesn't support that judgment. It appears nonsensical without much further detail. The length of a power cord, within any reasonably conceivable lower or upper limits, has no appreciable sonic effect.

Speedskater

The shorter the better!
Reducing the length if power cords & cables from component to component is a good plan.

As Bill Whitlock writes:
Many benefits attributed to “power conditioning” are actually due to the tight cluster of output outlets!

And then:
For system noise reduction, a simple outlet strip often works as well as, or even better, than a “power conditioner.” Filtering in most power conditioners only begins to work at frequencies above 30 kHz – at that and higher frequencies, noise no longer couples in cables like it does at lower (audio) frequencies.

From a paper that everyone should read.

"An Overview of Audio System Grounding and Interfacing"
by
Bill Whitlock, President
Jensen Transformers, Inc.
Life Fellow, Audio Engineering Society
Life Senior Member, Institute of Electrical & Electronic Engineers

http://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf

BlueFox

I went to the technical section the the Shunyata web-site, and looked at the power cord FAQ. Lots of good information there if interested.

Anyway, the length question is answered, along with other questions.

"MISCONCEPTION #7: Power cords are just like speaker cables; the shorter the cable the better.
Answer: A speaker cable conducts an audio signal from the power amplifier to the speaker. The distance is quite small, on the order of a couple of feet to several feet. The quality of a speaker cable is determined by how well it can transmit the signal from the amplifier to the speaker without alteration or signal degradation.

A power cable on the other hand is not transmitting an analog signal. It is conducting A.C. power and its sonic superiority will be determined by its ability to deliver current (steady-state and instantaneous) and its ability to deal with the EMI effects of the components to which it is attached.

Since a power cord is composed of a hot and neutral wire that the component sits between, a change in the length of the cord will increase the size of the "buffer" around the component. In the specific case of Shunyata Research -- we use patented noise-isolating geometries, shielding and a patented compound that absorbs EMI in some power cord models. Increasing the length of the cable, increases the noise isolation, or coupling effect to the ZrCa-2000 compounds, therefore increasing the performance of the cable.

In general, Shunyata Research does not recommend a power cord that is shorter than 3 feet or 1 meter in length for performance ease of use and, or resale reasons. Of course, subtle degrees of audio performance are not the only consideration when putting together an audio system. Aesthetics are also important especially when the system is located in a beautiful home. I just point out the performance differences so that people can make an informed decision when determining the optimum length for their cables."

http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/technical-feat/faqs/293-faq

http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/technical-feat/faqs

http://www.shunyata.com

As an FYI, I love Shunyata gear. Every piece has made a significant improvement over the non-Shunyata gear it replaced. I now consider the power and interconnect cables to be the foundation for both my two channel and HT. I know I can replace any component, and the new component will work at its best right from the start.

nspindel

Not for nothing, but the longer the cable you buy, the more money they make. Just sayin...

Moose68Bash

BlueFox,

Thank you for the explanatory quotation. If I understand the explanation of the greater buffering effect from EMI of the longer cable, it is a function of either shielding on the cable or special compounds which have more effect over a longer run of cable. (Which begs nspindel's comment.)

This explanation also begs the question: Does an ordinary cable -- no shielding, no compounds -- offer more buffering if it is longer? Does it somehow offer buffering, even without shielding or compounds?

I though longer runs of cables functioned as "antennas" to receive EMI from proximate sources.

F1nut

A little side step perhaps, but I've found a 1 meter power cord is as short as I'd want go. Anything shorter is just too bloody short to be of any use.

BlueFox

Moose68Bash wrote: »

BlueFox,

Thank you for the explanatory quotation. If I understand the explanation of the greater buffering effect from EMI of the longer cable, it is a function of either shielding on the cable or special compounds which have more effect over a longer run of cable. (Which begs nspindel's comment.)

This explanation also begs the question: Does an ordinary cable -- no shielding, no compounds -- offer more buffering if it is longer? Does it somehow offer buffering, even without shielding or compounds?

I though longer runs of cables functioned as "antennas" to receive EMI from proximate sources.

You're welcome. In theory cables can pick up EMI, especially if it is strong. I use Shunyata Zitron Anaconda ICs, and they are unshielded. Shunyata says to use the shielded Pythons in a noisey environment, but I haven't had any issues. Other than the speaker cables, all my PCs and ICs are 1 meter.

I would suggest contacting Shunyata customer service with your question. Phrase it as if you want to but a long cable, but are unsure if it will act as an antenna.

Speedskater

Remember that electricity seems to operate differently in Shunyata land than in the real world. Yet back in 2010, Caelin Gabriel wrote a chapter in a 'The Absolute Sound' book "The Golden Ear's Guide to Audio System Setup and Evaluation". His 9 page chapter was surprisingly good. Segments of the chapter were on their web-page but they disappeared when they redid the web-site.

tonyb

Speedskater wrote: »

Remember that electricity seems to operate differently in Shunyata land than in the real world.

Oh jeez man.....just try some different cords before spouting internet articles. Is that so hard ?

Speedskater

tonyb wrote: »

Oh jeez man.....just try some different cords before spouting internet articles. Is that so hard ?

Oh jeez man.....just grow up. Is that so hard ?

Are you saying the the Caelin Gabriel article (of Shunyata Research) is wrong or what?

BlueFox

Speedskater wrote: »

Remember that electricity seems to operate differently in Shunyata land than in the real world.

I'm not sure about that, but they do understand electricty, and its effects on audio, better than most. The founder, Caelin Gabriel, is more than happy to answer questions, and explain what they do. However, as an FYI, he does not tolerate fools.

smglbrth

F1nut wrote: »

A little side step perhaps, but I've found a 1 meter power cord is as short as I'd want go. Anything shorter is just too bloody short to be of any use.

My thoughts, and experience, exactly...

Speedskater

BlueFox wrote: »

I'm not sure about that, but they do understand electricty, and its effects on audio, better than most. The founder, Caelin Gabriel, is more than happy to answer questions, and explain what they do. However, as an FYI, he does not tolerate fools.

Let me remind you that I wrote:

Caelin Gabriel wrote a chapter in a 'The Absolute Sound' book "The Golden Ear's Guide to Audio System Setup and Evaluation". His 9 page chapter was surprisingly good.

Speedskater

tonyb wrote: »

Oh jeez man.....just try some different cords before spouting internet articles. Is that so hard ?

In the cases where real audible differences are heard caused be AC power cords, the reasons for those real differences are much more likely to be covered in the 'TAS' Caelin Gabriel chapter and/or in the writings of Ralph Morrison, Henry W. Ott, Jim Brown, Bill Whitlock than in the marketing brochures of cable manufactures.

BlueFox

Speedskater wrote: »

Let me remind you that I wrote:

Caelin Gabriel wrote a chapter in a 'The Absolute Sound' book "The Golden Ear's Guide to Audio System Setup and Evaluation". His 9 page chapter was surprisingly good.

Yes. I saw that. I thought you were being a wise guy with your comment about electricity behaving differently in Shunyata land. I would like to read that chapter.

I have to admit that I have come to respect Shunyata and Caelin Gabriel. Not only do their products work unbelievably well, their business philosophy is admirable. So far they are keeping manufacturing domestic, continue to release new product that out performs the previous generation, and lower the price for that performance. I can't complain about that.

tonyb

Speedskater wrote: »

In the cases where real audible differences are heard caused be AC power cords, the reasons for those real differences are much more likely to be covered in the 'TAS' Caelin Gabriel chapter and/or in the writings of Ralph Morrison, Henry W. Ott, Jim Brown, Bill Whitlock than in the marketing brochures of cable manufactures.

.

"are much more likely " ? Seriously dude...you just admitted you have zero experience aside what you cherry pick off the internet. That don't fly around here.

I simply suggest for you to go gain some experience before offering up an opinion....and again I ask, is that so hard ?

F1nut

tonyb wrote: »

.

"are much more likely " ? Seriously dude...you just admitted you have zero experience aside what you cherry pick off the internet. That don't fly around here.

That's going to leave a mark.

Moose68Bash

F1nut wrote: »

A little side step perhaps, but I've found a 1 meter power cord is as short as I'd want go. Anything shorter is just too bloody short to be of any use.

An important consideration: I'm building a couple of PCs for my daughter's rig. The preamp is much closer to the power conditioner than the amp. For the pre I could go as short as a foot, but that would not give me much flexibility to move the pre around to make connections, etc. I'll probably just go with three feet for both PCs. That will give me the flexibility and, perhaps, provide some buffering from EMI.

BlueFox

Caelin Gabriel posted this on another forum in regard to a question about what equipment he uses. They use these set ups to evaluate new cable designs. Although not mentioned, I would certainly expect some of the competition to also be occasionally used for some comparison.

CGabriel wrote:

Since we are a manufacturer and we are involved in constant research, our listening systems can vary but the following will give you a rough idea.

The Room:
The room is a suspended room within a room, custom designed and built by studio acoustic engineer Tom Brown. The floor is floated with vibration isolation pads. The walls are isolated and do not touch any part of the buildings structure. So, the listening room is essentially a sealed room within a building. The walls are faceted to distribute resonate vibration modes. The walls are double and triple thickness. The front of the room is a reflection free zone. The back and side walls are lined with solid wood custom built diffusers. There are two gasketed doors to seal the room. The ventilation to the room has an acoustic baffle system to eliminate acoustic resonant interaction with the room acoustics. The room has a very smooth frequency response with an ideal impulse decay response. There is a measured 40db drop in noise level from inside to outside the room. The room was designed with two adjoining rooms that are isolated from the listening room. One of these rooms is the control room where all of the electronics are located. So, we can setup the room with only the speakers in room. There is another recording control room at the opposite end where our recording console and equipment is located. We have the ability to set the room up for reference listening and alternatively for recording sessions.

The Power Distribution System:
Since we make power distribution and conditioning products it was important for us to have a stable reference power system. It starts with an electrostatically shielded isolation transformer. Our factory is in an industrial park and we wanted to isolate the reference system power from large power surges and sags from our neighbors. This transformer is located on the side of the building is actually larger in capacity than the transformer that feeds power to the building. This is necessary to ensure that the transformer has sufficient impulse surge capacity to prevent DTCD limiting to the reference control room. The isolation transformer feeds a sub-panel located in the control room. It has a surge protection system installed in the panel with dedicated circuit breakers so that we can turn them off for reference listening. There are 3 dedicated power circuits that feed the interior of the listening room. There are 5 dedicated power circuits that feed the control room. All of the dedicated lines are run in rigid conduit and all equal in length to eliminate potential ground loops. All of this was installed by my sister who is a master electrician.

The Power Distribution:
We use a variety of production and prototype power conditioners and power cabling.

Speakers:
We have several different listening rooms including the factory refererence room and several in home systems including mine and Grant's and several beta testers. We have used many different speakers over the years but these are those that are currently being used: Magneplanar 20.7, Magneplanar 1.7, Wilson Max 3, Wilson Sasha, KEF Blade, KEF LS50, Ayon Falcon,

Amplification and preamplification:
Audio Research REF250, Audio Research DS450M, Audio Research integrated, Constellation Centaur, Devialet, Rowland, Bel Canto, Cary Audio, Audio Research REF5, Audio Research REF2SE, First Sound (custom built) preamp, etc

Source
Audio Research CD8, Mac mini, Bel Canto DAC, BelCanto Ref Link, dcs Pucini, Kronos turntable, rebuilt AMPEX tape deck w/Bottlehead electronics.

He also had this to say in an apparent reference to an individual who mentioned any power cord is fine.

If you do a trial evaluation you may want to take a Benadryl 30 minutes before the listening session to guard against the placebo effect. You may also want to look in the DIY section for instructions on the construction details for an oragami hat made from aluminum foil to avoid the mass hypnosis beam that is transmitted from some secret location in the rain forest of the Olympic Peninsula.

http://www.audioaficionado.org/shunyata-research/25274-best-power-cord-preamp.html

Moose68Bash

Not to be cynical about this, but if audio equipment producers have to go to these lengths to perceive improvements their innovations make, can we mere mortals expect actually to hear these differences in our equipment and in our environments?

My "listening room" is my family room. It makes me wonder whether it makes sense for me to pursue the kinds of improvements that result from this type of research. Have I reached the point of diminishing returns?

BlueFox

All good manufacturers have controlled environments for evaluating their equipment. A good test requires there only be one difference between tests. Otherwise, the results can be suspect. Believe me, I have had no problem at all hearing the benefits in either my living room (two channel), or a bedroom used for the HT.

Interestingly, someone asked a question similar to yours.

CGabriel wrote:

Yes i hear what you are saying. That is why we also test in our home systems and with our beta testers.

Moose68Bash

I wonder, however, whether these designers/developers/manufacturers spend a lot of time, effort and money on many improvements that they never bring to market because these improvements -- perceptible in the test environment -- become imperceptible in "our home systems and with our beta testers."

My experience in the computer industry tells me that many designs that make it to bets testing stage never see the light of day because the cost/benefit equation isn't right.

R&D is expensive, and its cost is amortized in the products that finally make it to market -- just as in the pharma industry.