I was thinking about Carver amps and...

I-SIG

...after doing a bunch of searching for a 4.0-based Carver amp, and looking on audioGon.com, I noticed something.

There are tons of ads for ConradJohnsons, Krells, Classe, etc, etc, etc, but less than 10 ads for Carver amps of the over 1000 classifieds posted.

So I can't help but wonder, are Carvers that scarce (I doubt it or I wouldn't be able to afford one), or, aside from materials, have amps not really gone anywhere since the late 80's/early 90's?

Wes

Frank Z

Ebay's got bunches of 'em. I've found that most of the stuff on Audiogon is higher-end, even though I and many others hold Carver gear in high regard, many others don't.

organ

Not far at all IMO. The biggest difference is probably the jump from vacuum tubes to transistors for much higher power output and cool operation.

Maurice

George Grand

They got amplifier circuit design down pretty good in the 30's and 40's. Speakers, since the 50's.

ADVERTISING sure has come a long way since those days.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

I-SIG

George always has a little different spin to put on things!

Wes

Tour2ma

True, but then what did Frank leave unanswered...

rskarvan

Carver is an odd-bird with regard to amplifier design. Most audiophiles regard carver as mushy sounding - thats why they don't hold them in high regard. Polk's classic speakers are also mushy sounding; but, that is ok - I like them that way. My only gripe with carver is that they aren't the most reliable of amps. They do one thing well - they deliver lots of power for the money. However, they don't use conventional electronic design to accomplish the task. In my opinion, the circuit design has been compromised. My idea is the ONLY coloration that should be added to the circuit is at the speaker. Carver amps add upstream coloration. Thats why I don't like them. Its not that they don't sound good. Its just that they don't sound clean.

TroyD

What amps DON'T have a colored sound?

BDT

organ

I like my equipments colored. This is what makes a particular equipment or combination unique and special.

Maurice

RuSsMaN

Originally posted by TroyD
What amps DON'T have a colored sound?

Per Bob, they should all pretty much sound the same, no?

Now that I've heard 'big' Carvers (TFM45, M4.0), there is a substantial tonal difference (to me) between them and the smaller models (m200 - TFM15 etc). I prefer the BIG boys.

Cheers,
Russ

steveinaz

Carver amps do have a warm quality about them that makes a great match with over-analytical source equipment. As always, you have to consider each piece of equipment in your system to strike a good balance. Of the Carvers I've listened to, mainly M500t, M400, and other 80's era stuff, I really like the balance they struck; good slam without being razors-edge resolute. I agree with Russ that the 250watt + Carvers sound the best to my ears; not overly bloomy like the lower wattage models can be.

TroyD

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Per Bob, they should all pretty much sound the same, no?

Now that I've heard 'big' Carvers (TFM45, M4.0), there is a substantial tonal difference (to me) between them and the smaller models (m200 - TFM15 etc). I prefer the BIG boys.

Cheers,
Russ

That statement by Bob had some pretty big 'if's' in it. That said, if you aren't critically listening most SS amps, IMO, sound similar.

Ah, I feel better now that Russ own's a REAL man's amp.

The TFM-45 and m4.0 should, IMO sound different as they are modified to clone the sound of his Silver Seven Vacuum Tube Amplifier. While I've never heard the Silver Seven Vacuum Tube Amp, IMO, the big Carvers (including my Silver 9t's) do have much of the magic of other tube amps that I've heard.

BDT

I-SIG

Originally posted by TroyD
That statement by Bob had some pretty big 'if's' in it. That said, if you aren't critically listening most SS amps, IMO, sound similar.

BDT

I think I'm gonna disagree with that one.

I borrowed a NAD from hoosier21 for awhile. The sound differences were immediately noticeable. Design goes a long way towards the sound characteristics, as much as materials used.

Wes

rskarvan

Troy,

The amps that don't have a colored sound are the ones that usually cost big bucks and have huge torroidal power supplies - unlike Carver. If you listen to a very clear detailed system (Krell, Thiel) you will understand what you are missing with Carver and Polk. In short, you are missing quite a lot. However, Carver and Polk do sound good together for a lot of music. And after your ears adjust to the Carver/Polk sound, well, you really don't know what you are missing. But if you ever give you ears an opportunity to step into the Krell/Thiel world and adjust to being accustomed to the delicately presented micro-sounds in the recording, when you go home to Carver/Polk, you'll understand that the sound is compressed, muddy, and highly colored. Its all in the details dude. I like classic Polk speakers. But, they are colored. Carver amps are the same way. I just don't like to use that crayon in my crayola box. That really may be a good way to explain the difference. Carver/Polk is like the mid size box of 32 Crayons. Krell/Thiel is more like the deluxe box of 128 crayons with the built in crayon sharpener in the back. For some people, it doesn't matter that they have a limited choice of colored crayons with worn tips. For others, it matters quite a lot.

Ron

TroyD

My point, Ron, is that ALL amps add some sort of coloration to the sound. Some you may like, some you may not. However, if you think that, regardless of how much you pay, your high dollar amps don't have a particular 'sound', well, you are in disagreement with pretty much the whole audiophile community.

Same thing with speakers, I think my Carver Amazings or the Dahlquist DQ-10's are each in thier own way have clean, clear and detailed sound but they each add thier own distinct coloration and thus sound different.

BDT

Wardsweb

I can only speak from my perspective, but I've been a Carver user for many years. I started with a m1.5t and now own three (A760x, A500x, TFM-35) The A760x pushes some Martin Logan CLS electrostats and very well I might add. The amp is good down to 1 ohm with lots of currents. The A500x pushes two 18" bass horns and can rock the house. The TFM-35 use to push some Dahlquist DQ-18's I was using for my surrounds. Now it's just sitting as I now use my Yamaha RX-V1400 for some JBL surrounds and rear effects. The only problem I've had is the VU meter lights are out on the TFM-35. I would buy Carver again.

TroyD

WW,

I'm pretty sure that the V/U lamps are the same ones that are in my TFM-45 and Silver 9t's. I've got a couple extras if you want 'em. Just give me your mailing addy and I'll send them on.

You know, I just reread Ron's last post and it sounds an AWFUL lot like he is bashing gear that other members use, enjoy and would argue is every bit as good as the gear he uses which I find highly uncool. Bring your Thiels/Krell and I'll bring my Amazings and Silver 9t's and I doubt you are going to convince me that my crayons (or WW's either) are broken.

I just LOVE the eliteist attitude. :rolleyes:

BDT

Wardsweb

Mighty kind of you Troy. So, you have Amazing's with 9t's, oh man, that's gotta be some kind of ssswwweeeeeeeeeeeeet.

TroyD

De nada broham...anything for a Carver buff.

The Silver 9t's are VERY sweet. VERY similar sounding to the TFM-45.

I have:
Silver 9t's
TFM-45 (had 2 until a couple weeks ago)
m400a (had 2 until a coupld days ago)
m200t

I have recently parted with:
m1.5t
m0.5t

I think that they have all been great sounding amps and most of them are/were 20 years old or so without any issues.

BDT

steveinaz

Originally posted by TroyD
You know, I just reread Ron's last post and it sounds an AWFUL lot like he is bashing gear that other members use, enjoy and would argue is every bit as good as the gear he uses which I find highly uncool. Bring your Thiels/Krell and I'll bring my Amazings and Silver 9t's and I doubt you are going to convince me that my crayons (or WW's either) are broken.

I just LOVE the eliteist attitude. :rolleyes:

BDT

For what you'll pay for a Krell, I sure hope his crayon's are sharp!

rskarvan

I don't own Thiel speakers. I have listened to them though. They are HIGHLY detailed when compared to Polk. I also have listened to Carvers and Krell and Carvers sound AWFUL by comparison. I'm not bashing anybody. But, if you talk to people in the audio world and ask them how a set of Polk 1.2's compares to a set of Thiel 7.2's, they will tell you to get a clue. There is no comparison. Maybe you can't hear the difference. Everybody's ears are different. But, to me, there is a HUGE difference. And, trust me, I am not alone in my opinion.

I do agree that there is a certain "elitest" attitude in the high end audio world. I am not an elitest. I have a couple of pieces of Krell gear that I purchased USED. They sound great. And, they also hold their USED resale value very well. That is why I bought them - great sound and great resale value.

I have listened to the Krell pumping sound into the 3.1TL's and I have only to say this. When M. Polk's team designed the SRS-SDA's, he never heard them sound so good as they do now with more modern electronics.

Again, Carver and Polk were matched together at birth. There is a loyal following. But, audio engineering has progressed some twenty years since then. Compare a 1984 Vette to a 2003 Vette. Same thing in the automotive world. Now you get substantially better performance due to continuous improvement.

RuSsMaN

Let's get rid of the auto analogies. The just don't fit - period.

How about a 68 Nova vs a 88 Nova? How about a 62 Impala vs a 02 Impala?

It's not auto, its AUDIO - not arguing your point Ron, just the overuse of auto analogies in our hobby.

Cheers,
Russ

warlocks1

Troy, I have 4 lights out on My 15CB's. Do you know where one can find more replacement bulbs? I have no idea what to look for. If WW doesn't take yours, will you please let me know. Thanks, Jeff

TroyD

Jeff,

Check Parts Express, I think they are around 50 cents ea....

BDT

warlocks1

I think I found them. It looks like there are 3 different one. Do you know which one I should get? How hard are they to change? Sorry to hijack the thread!

TroyD

It's a 12amp light if I remember correctly, should be just a matter of cutting the old one out and soldering in the new one.

BDT

rskarvan

Russman,

Ok... I'll drop the auto analogies and keep it to strictly home audio analogies.

"Carver Sonic Holography" is to "Polk SDA"

as

Carver Amps are to Krell Amps

Now you understand?

- Ron

warlocks1

Troy, I just want to make sure. You mean 12 volt, not 12 amp, right? If the 12 volt is the wrong one and I install it, can I hurt the amp at all? Thanks again