Full-Band Setting

dirtydenim86

I ran through the auto setup using the mic for my Onky 809 and was looking for some guidance for the front speaker configuration.

I have RTI10s as my front speakers should I set them to full band?

I am running the PSW505 for my sub.

dbKiller

I have the same receiver and I did not run my fronts at full band with my SVS in the mix. That way all the lower frequencies go to the sub and let your mains relax a little. I have built in powered subs in my fronts and still set them at 50Hz. But its all personal preference really. I set my sub to pickup exactly where is set my fronts to cut off. Works like a champ

tonyb

Then what are the built in subs of your front speakers really doing then ?

This is where I part company with conventional wisdom on floorstanders being set to small. What really is happening there is you have made very expensive stands for your mids and upper frequencies. Best get a better bookie and use a subwoofer if that's the case. That's just me though, I know others will disagree with that theory.

Some claim a snappier mid range by setting them to small, less power lost on those big woofers in floorstanders by using a subwoofer. If that's the case, then the issue is power to the speakers, not large or small settings. Some claim the double bass from both will sound weird, maybe....maybe not, everyone's ears are different along with environment. Either way, experiment a bit with placement of the sub and crossover settings, full/small settings. See what floats your boat.

msg

I have the RTi10's as well, and haven't yet decided which way I like best.
that's a pretty nice sub - it should complement them pretty well.

The AVR I'm currently using is pretty weak and doesn't drive the 10's very cleanly at volume. It does just okay. I do notice that the overall sound is a little fuller if I run them at full range, so I use them this way for music now, and I'll go back and forth between Small and Large for theater. I have an old sub right now, though, too, so with that 505, you'll probably see better results. If I want to run the fronts as Small, I play with the sub crossover between 80Hz and 100Hz. It fills pretty well, but still doesn't seem as nice as running the RTi10's full range, even without adequate power to them.

I've played around with double bass, too, called PLUS in the subwoofer setting on the Pioneer I'm using; next one over from ON. It helps with lows output at lower listening levels where the RTi10's aren't moving much. I haven't played with it enough with the fronts set to Large to have developed a preference.

dbKiller

They sound good, I have the fronts set at 50Hz and they do well set like that. I guess to each and every setup sounds different, but mine seems to sound best set this way. The subs in my towers still pound strong, but my PB12 Plus 2 really doesn't ask for much help. The tower subs help fill the midbass and I don't worry about over driving them at lower Hz. Just seems to me maybe I will extend the life of the Polk plate amps and subs, hopefully.

Erik Tracy

tonyb wrote: »

Then what are the built in subs of your front speakers really doing then ?

This is where I part company with conventional wisdom on floorstanders being set to small. What really is happening there is you have made very expensive stands for your mids and upper frequencies. Best get a better bookie and use a subwoofer if that's the case. That's just me though, I know others will disagree with that theory.

Some claim a snappier mid range by setting them to small, less power lost on those big woofers in floorstanders by using a subwoofer. If that's the case, then the issue is power to the speakers, not large or small settings. Some claim the double bass from both will sound weird, maybe....maybe not, everyone's ears are different along with environment. Either way, experiment a bit with placement of the sub and crossover settings, full/small settings. See what floats your boat.

I'm with you on this one as well -especially for music.

If the AVR has memory settings - it is easy enough to have two saved settings where fronts=large (and bass=both), and fronts=small, then have a listen for yourself.

See what YOU like and do a diresive hand waive and pfffft to the 'rules'. :cheesygrin:

cnh

The Onkyo should have a Double Bass feature on it which will allow you to run the sub from its cut off point down and the L/R FULL RANGE if you wish. You might want to experiment with different settings for this and see what sounds best to "you". I ran that configuration for a while and decided that things sounded better L/R at a 60hz crossover? The problem was somewhat related to "phase" matching between the woofers on the L/R speakers and the sub...it was a little too tricky for me to get it just "right"!

If you run Rti-10s full range, you'll probably need external amplification with an 809. The only 800 series Onkyo that you might be able to get away with running in that mode is mine, the TX-SR 805 which was a monster in its time equal to the TOTL Onkyos in power.

cnh

rpf65

I think it would depend on what it is your using the set-up for at the time. If your listening to 2-channel music, I would probably go with the large setting.

When it comes to HT, I would go with small, at cut-off at 50 Hz or so to start. Like the idea of the sub using it's own power for the explosions and saving the reserve power for the people screaming when they figure out something just blew up.

dbKiller

That's what I founds works best for my setup. I have tried fronts as full, and multiple different crossover points, at 50Hz my RT2000p's and SVS do a very good job handing off duties at that point. I am sure a different sub and different towers would have different personalities. I keep the Polk amps at half power and the sub where Audyssey set the sub and it sounds good. I do have to adjust the sub power on some movies, such as Transformers, as it overwhelms at times.

dirtydenim86

Based on the auto setup it came back with the following:

Front: 40Hz
Center: 40Hz
Surround: 50Hz

Here is my system:
2 x RTI10 Polk Audio Front Tower Speakers
2 x RTI4 Pol Audio Bookself (for rear)
1 x CSi5 Center Channel RTI Series Speaker

I can't really tell the difference to be honest when I set the front to full band compared to the recommended settings of 40Hz.

I never really noticed how much the RTIs sing until I turned my sub off wow.

dirtydenim86

If anyone could recommend a good starting for setting up the crossover frequency for my setup that would be great.

Also what should the Hz on my Subwoofer be set to if my fronts are set to 40hz?

tonyb

dirtydenim86 wrote: »

Based on the auto setup it came back with the following:

Front: 40Hz
Center: 40Hz
Surround: 50Hz

Here is my system:
2 x RTI10 Polk Audio Front Tower Speakers
2 x RTI4 Pol Audio Bookself (for rear)
1 x CSi5 Center Channel RTI Series Speaker

I can't really tell the difference to be honest when I set the front to full band compared to the recommended settings of 40Hz.

I never really noticed how much the RTIs sing until I turned my sub off wow.

Try anywhere between 40-80 hz on the crossover. every room and set of ears is different so what works for one person may not work for you. Takes a little experimenting.

You observation with the sub off and the RTI's singing.....same here. Which for music listening and big floor standers I don't like a sub in the mix. Others do however, so it becomes a matter of preference. BTW- you should only be using one crossover, presumably the one in the receiver. The one on the back of the sub should be turned up to the highest value. You want to avoid the double filtering.

Erik Tracy

tonyb wrote: »

Try anywhere between 40-80 hz on the crossover. every room and set of ears is different so what works for one person may not work for you. Takes a little experimenting.

You observation with the sub off and the RTI's singing.....same here. Which for music listening and big floor standers I don't like a sub in the mix. Others do however, so it becomes a matter of preference. BTW- you should only be using one crossover, presumably the one in the receiver. The one on the back of the sub should be turned up to the highest value. You want to avoid the double filtering.

I think the OP said he was using an Onkyo AVR, so from the AVR sub out to the LFE input on the 505, I think the sub xover is bypassed.

socal swagger

....

pitdogg2

tonyb wrote: »

Then what are the built in subs of your front speakers really doing then ?

This is where I part company with conventional wisdom on floorstanders being set to small. What really is happening there is you have made very expensive stands for your mids and upper frequencies. Best get a better bookie and use a subwoofer if that's the case. That's just me though, I know others will disagree with that theory.

Some claim a snappier mid range by setting them to small, less power lost on those big woofers in floorstanders by using a subwoofer. If that's the case, then the issue is power to the speakers, not large or small settings. Some claim the double bass from both will sound weird, maybe....maybe not, everyone's ears are different along with environment. Either way, experiment a bit with placement of the sub and crossover settings, full/small settings. See what floats your boat.

Erik Tracy wrote: »

I'm with you on this one as well -especially for music.

If the AVR has memory settings - it is easy enough to have two saved settings where fronts=large (and bass=both), and fronts=small, then have a listen for yourself.

See what YOU like and do a diresive hand waive and pfffft to the 'rules'. :cheesygrin:

100% agree here. To me it makes no sense to be neutering large speakers like this. I have two powered subs in the mix one LFE on the front and one to run my surrounds full range. Funny how conventional wisdom says there is not much that goes to the rear...WELL there is..Dolby created it to be full range to all with the LFE taking the very lowest that most larger speakers have a hard time reproducing.

dirtydenim86

Erik Tracy wrote: »

I think the OP said he was using an Onkyo AVR, so from the AVR sub out to the LFE input on the 505, I think the sub xover is bypassed.

I am using an Onkyo 809 receiver if I am using the LFE input on the 505 the frequency of the sub doesn't matter?

I was going to put it to the highest setting anyways.

dirtydenim86

tonyb wrote: »

Try anywhere between 40-80 hz on the crossover. every room and set of ears is different so what works for one person may not work for you. Takes a little experimenting.

You observation with the sub off and the RTI's singing.....same here. Which for music listening and big floor standers I don't like a sub in the mix. Others do however, so it becomes a matter of preference. BTW- you should only be using one crossover, presumably the one in the receiver. The one on the back of the sub should be turned up to the highest value. You want to avoid the double filtering.

I was going to set the fronts to 60Hz and let the sub do most of the lower frequencies although at 40Hz the RTi10s sound nice.

The PSW505 is pretty nice and i wouldn't mind having the lows sent there.

What do you think about that?

dirtydenim86

tonyb wrote: »

Try anywhere between 40-80 hz on the crossover. every room and set of ears is different so what works for one person may not work for you. Takes a little experimenting.

You observation with the sub off and the RTI's singing.....same here. Which for music listening and big floor standers I don't like a sub in the mix. Others do however, so it becomes a matter of preference. BTW- you should only be using one crossover, presumably the one in the receiver. The one on the back of the sub should be turned up to the highest value. You want to avoid the double filtering.

I will set the low pass as high as it will go.

Thanks for the suggestion appreciate it.

Erik Tracy

dirtydenim86 wrote: »

I am using an Onkyo 809 receiver if I am using the LFE input on the 505 the frequency of the sub doesn't matter?

I was going to put it to the highest setting anyways.

From the PSW505 manual

Connect a single RCA cable from the “SUB OUT” of your receiver to the LFE input of
the subwoofer. This connecting method bypasses the subwoofer’s internal filter and
relies on the filter built into your receiver.

It won't matter what you set the xover control on the back of the sub to if you connected the AVR to the LFE input on the PSW505.

aboroth00

The point of using a subwoofer is not only alleviating the floorstanders of bass but also to better reproduce bass in a more ideal location as well as more efficiently. First of all, do not do double bass as in set your speakers to large and run your subwoofer in the same bad. This will cause cancellation issues and phase issues at the LP (peaks and nulls). Usually where your floorstanders are positioned is not ideal for bass reproduction and thus this is where the subwoofer comes in. You can place the sub in a more ideal location to reproduce the lowest frequencies best.

Your floorstanders woofers roll in around 125hz so if you set your XO to 80hz your floorstanders will START to roll off at 80hz. Remember crossovers are not brick walls so the fronts will still be reproducing frequencies below the XO. If you're running a movie setup, I would recommend setting the sub at 80hz to handle the midbass frequencies to create the "chest bump" effect and slam. Your floorstanders won't be as adequate to handle the LFE effects as your sub would be. You can also run EQ on the sub to get a flatter response. Measuring the response and choosing the XO point to create the flattest response would be ideal. Otherwise, you're shooting in the dark. It's much harder for our ears to judge the frequency response in the lowest frequencies so trusting your hearing to judge a flat response is quite difficult. A peak or null is not apparent until we hear a flat response, and a peak in the band might be judged as preferable (good) bass when it's really not...

dirtydenim86

Erik Tracy wrote: »

From the PSW505 manual


It won't matter what you set the xover control on the back of the sub to if you connected the AVR to the LFE input on the PSW505.

Good to know thanks for the information.

I am currently running the sub using an RCA to the LFE input.

I have the crossovers set to:
Front: 40Hz
Center: 40Hz
Surround: 50Hz

RTI10s for fronts
CSi5 for center
RTI4 for surround

Erik Tracy

dirtydenim86 wrote: »

Good to know thanks for the information.

I am currently running the sub using an RCA to the LFE input.

I have the crossovers set to:
Front: 40Hz
Center: 40Hz
Surround: 50Hz

RTI10s for fronts
CSi5 for center
RTI4 for surround

If your Onkyo can store multiple memory settings, then you should still try running Fronts=Large, Bass=Both and do your own listening tests to see what you like better.

imo, of course.....

tonyb

aboroth00 wrote: »

A peak or null is not apparent until we hear a flat response, and a peak in the band might be judged as preferable (good) bass when it's really not...

I can agree with the rest of your post but this statement...not so much. If a peak is in fact judged as preferable, then whats the point of a ruler flat response ?

Musical reproduction and all that entails is a matter of personal preferences, enjoyment... not graphs. Just sayin'....

aboroth00

tonyb wrote: »

I can agree with the rest of your post but this statement...not so much. If a peak is in fact judged as preferable, then whats the point of a ruler flat response ?

Musical reproduction and all that entails is a matter of personal preferences, enjoyment... not graphs. Just sayin'....

I didn't elaborate further. A peak in the midbass region might be judged as preferable because it has midbass impact, but in actuality you're losing much more such as robbing yourself of the deep extension and clean bass. By that statement, I was trying to illustrate the fact that our ears are not good enough to judge response in the deepest bass region <100hz without the aid of measuring equipment. Without knowing what is correct we can't really know what it's supposed to sound like. This is usually where EQ comes in. I was battling a similar issue where I had a 10db peak at 80hz and I was setting my gain around that 80hz peak. I had thought it sounded good because I was getting that midbass slam, but in actuality, I was robbing myself of extension below 80hz but I couldn't really know this until I observed visually what was going on in the room. Now I have clean bass, better imaging and soundstaging.

Peaks and nulls are judged differently in the bass region than musical reproduction in other regions of the frequency spectrum. The room plays a big part in this. This is not a matter of personal preference or enjoyment. Poor bass smears the entire audio band and would produce poor imaging, soundstaging, and coherency. A ruler flat response is advantageous on many levels. A null or peak is audible and affects how bass propagates in the rest of the bass region.

I for one wouldn't want nulls or peaks to distort what I'm hearing. A null would mean I'm losing important bass information and peaks would mean those frequencies are overpowering other frequencies' coherency. After all, we're after clean bass and a good indicator of that is to have a good frequency response curve. You'd be surprised, most setups have bass that varies +/-10db with a good setup (very rare without EQ) to be +/-5db.

dbKiller

Ok, now I have read to the point where I can confused. I didn't realize until now that when I set crossover points for my fronts they default to small. Which raises another question I have never studied on, what happens when your speakers are set to small other than not being full range? And back to the original matter, is it better to have fronts at full range or crossover set? Mine seem to sound better set, but am I lacking something running this way? I am an HT enthusiast, not an expert and am all ears to learn something.

tonyb

I get what your saying pal, and agree with most of it. But....if something pleases our ears, regardless of right or wrong, isn't that the end result we all want ?

Kinda like the guy who would buy a Cary slp 05 and use old Fisher speakers and a sony dvd player to spin cd's with coat hangers hooking everything up. If he likes that sound, who am I to tell him he doesn't ? I may think he's nuts, but as long as someone enjoys what they hear, rock on man. It's about the music, not the gear, not the graphs, or ruler flat responses.

In the interest of discovery for ones own personal audio journey, sometimes you have to throw out audio rules and experiment. There is no audio bible as far as I'm concerned....well, maybe a few commandments anyway. lol

BTW- just for giggles....have to tell ya that many a ruler flat systems I've listened to....sound like crap.

aboroth00

dbKiller wrote: »

Ok, now I have read to the point where I can confused. I didn't realize until now that when I set crossover points for my fronts they default to small. Which raises another question I have never studied on, what happens when your speakers are set to small other than not being full range? And back to the original matter, is it better to have fronts at full range or crossover set? Mine seem to sound better set, but am I lacking something running this way? I am an HT enthusiast, not an expert and am all ears to learn something.

Bass is a confusing topic. If you're running full range speakers, set your speakers to small if you intend to use a sub. You do not want the mains and the sub to play the same frequencies. The reason for this is that, since the sub and mains are playing the same frequencies, you run the risk of cancellation and phase issues as frequencies would combine destructively and constructively. Instead of worrying about the phase at the XO point, you have to worry whether the mains and subs are in phase at all the frequencies shared. The cancellation and reinforcement would create peaks and nulls in the bass region (we don't want this). In addition, the mains may not be in an ideal location and thus cause more havoc. When the speakers are set to small, the speakers do not play the frequencies below the XO point but instead the sub would.


The unreserved recommendation if you're doing HT, set the XO higher ~60-80hz. I would prefer 80hz and set the speakers to small. No if's and or but's about this. If you have trouble with integration, don't lower the XO, get an EQ, measuring equipment to see what's going on. You want the sub to handle the LFE effects, to give you that slam without taxing the mains. Subs have much higher wattage amps (usually class D) to handle transients and dynamics on the low end. If you want more bass, get another sub, don't roll in your mains to do the duty. If you want smoother bass response, again get measuring euqipment and an EQ. This may be up for debate if you want to do music, but for HT, that's how the big boys roll.

aboroth00

tonyb wrote: »

BTW- just for giggles....have to tell ya that many a ruler flat systems I've listened to....sound like crap.

Ruler flat in the <100hz region vs peaks and nulls there? I don't believe it. The room degrades the sound we hear from our speakers especially in regards to bass. I rather have tight over flabby bass anyday. Subjectively to most people it sounds better, and if you want to augment the signal you sure can add a little bump in the midbass. But as far as correcting for peaks and nulls, it's a no brainer.

Ruler flat across the entire freq response you may or may not like, but ruler response in the <100hz region so you don't get a squiggly bass response, benefits everything for the better. Not accounting for the room and its effects on bass is a just losing a huge chunk of performance IMO.

dbKiller

I enjoy the forum and learn a lot on here. I appreciate facts and opinions from people with more knowledge than I have. I never said in my post that the way I have mine is the right way, just the way mine sounds best. I hear what your saying tonyb!

aboroth00

BTW, my Revel's and sub measure ruler flat in room and they do sound amazing .

aboroth00

dbKiller wrote: »

I enjoy the forum and learn a lot on here. I appreciate facts and opinions from people with more knowledge than I have. I never said in my post that the way I have mine is the right way, just the way mine sounds best. I hear what your saying tonyb!

There's a difference between musical preference and proper setup. What tony and I are in disagreement about is proper setup. We all want deep, tight, coherent bass not flabby, boomy, indistinct bass. Proper setup is less disputed than a preferred voicing or sound. Bass doesn't really have a voicing or its distinct timbre as our ears are less sensitive to this region. With subs, there is plenty of papers, research, DIY, trial-and-error that has gone into proper setup and that's where I draw my knowledge from. 2ch and HT are completely different animals and I would argue that most sub applications would still apply into 2ch. But for HT, sub setup is fairly straightforward.