Streaming and high end audio

NeilGabriel

So....now I stream about 90% of the TV and 90% of the movies I watch. Through the internet, into the router onto the Roku and then to the receiver.

I am not an electrical or audio engineer, but it seems like so much degradation in the signal would occur that spending thousands on processors/amps/receivers doesn't make a lot of sense now. My two OPPO BDP gather dust. I finally started renting disks so I could watch some Blu-ray through the players.

Is mid-fi all that streamers need?

Thoughts?

BlueFox

If you appreciate lower quality then streaming is fine. I assume you are also happy with MP3 music?

tonyb

Just like the variations in sound quality between receivers,amps, processors.....streaming also has many levels of sound quality. Depends on what satisfies you. Think of streaming as just another source,like a cdp. The rest of the gear still matters. Sell your oppo bdp's and buy yourself a good dac....maybe even a decent 2 channel tubed pre amp and your streaming pleasure will increase 5 fold.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Degradation in the signal? I'm not sure I'm following you...

As long as you've got a good connection, the method of playback shouldn't matter. What's important is the source content, playing a compressed mp3 file, regardless of whether it's streamed or on a disc, is still going to produce mediocre sound quality.

tonyb

I don't know if I'd go as far as to say the method of playback isn't important. A regular cd has a level of playback importance too, a Hello Kitty cdp, or a Jolida 100 cdp.....which would sound better ?

Digital streaming is no different, anyone can get music from a computer to a stereo in many different fashions. However some ways are better than others when it comes to SQ. Starting out with a lossless format is key though, you can't spit shine a **** in the MP3 world.

EndersShadow

Source matters. If your wanting to stream 24/96 or 24/196 then you will get good sound. Even FLAC will sound decent with the right equipment.

MOG on the other hand has no need for SUPER HI-FI.

Perfect example:

I have my computer upstairs connected with coaxial to a Sunfire TGP-II processor. The sound is VERY good with my FLAC and high-rez files. Its still decent even with MOG. My entire system wasnt super crazy expensive.

Downstairs I have a Squeezebox Classic connected to my wired network. It plays the same files over coaxial. It still sounds decent, but because the limiting factor is the Squeezebox, I know I am losing some of the fidelity of my higher rez files.

So my question is what are you wanting to stream music wise? MP3's, FLAC, 24/196, MOG, Pandora, etc. If your source files are low quality then spending TONS on high end gear is pointless. If they are high quality or even mid-fi it can make them sound better.

However how far down the rabbit hole you go is a mix between wants and budget, and its a decision only you can make.

tonyb

You need a dac on that SB classic Dan.....that's the limiting factor.

recoveryone

I'm reading more about music, which files are tiny compared to streaming video. Live streaming can drain bandwidth to a crawl, and bandwidth is the key in all streaming. The more amount of data that your system can handle the better the reproduction will be in both audio and especially video. Also there is the difference in wireless streaming and a hardwired network. A wireless system has the limitation of the sending and receiving components, unlike a hardwire sytem. A hardwire setup is not much diffirent than using cables, so there would not be much loss in signal once it enters into the setup.

EndersShadow

tonyb wrote: »

You need a dac on that SB classic Dan.....that's the limiting factor.

I am aware, but due to how my Integra works (converting even analog sources to digital, running it through its DAC and then back out) adding a DAC to this system is pointless. That and the Classic is limited regarding high-res playback, and I am using it out via optical to my Integra. Best I can do right now unless I replace my AVR and move to a Touch....

recoveryone

tonyb wrote: »

You need a dac on that SB classic Dan.....that's the limiting factor.

I read many debates on that Tony, as some say that a better power supply is the key to make the SB Classic sing and other go with a DAC. I am in the camp of the power supply, as the default one is a cheap on/off swtiching type that you can get at any Wal Mart/Radio Shack. The built-in DAC's in the Classic are very very good if powered properly and that is why the Transporter has the heavy power cord made to keep the power consistant to drive the unit.

tonyb

recoveryone wrote: »

I read many debates on that Tony, as some say that a better power supply is the key to make the SB Classic sing and other go with a DAC. I am in the camp of the power supply, as the default one is a cheap on/off swtiching type that you can get at any Wal Mart/Radio Shack. The built-in DAC's in the Classic are very very good if powered properly and that is why the Transporter has the heavy power cord made to keep the power consistant to drive the unit.

Not disagreeing there my friend, power supply is key to everything audio. However, let me simply suggest it's more deep than one simple answer. More so a combination of various things that allow you to extrude digital playback to a degree of satisfaction that most analog systems portray.

NeilGabriel

My issue is with the sound quality coming from streamed videos through Netflix, Amazon and now VUDU, which boasts the higher
quality formats.

When I say signal degradation, I mean losing fidelity as the signal passes through so many devices...e.g., instead of getting the audio (and video for that matter) directly from disk to amp/receiver, I've assumed that every link in the system can affect the quality of sound. From the Uverse modem through the router through the Roku box then finally to the receiver.

Are you all suggesting that if the source material (what say VUDU is streaming) is "good", then only the quality of my video/audio
player is what matters? For those who don't know, VUDU streams in SD, HD and HDX on more recent movies and usually uses Dolby Digital +. Though they claim to stream some movies in 7.1 (I assume digital?). Roku 3's only out is HDMI.

Or, if I want to continue with quality site and sound, I just need to rent or buy the BR disks?

I remember about half of what this site has taught me over the years, but streaming is a fairly new animal for me.

recoveryone

recoveryone

I personally don't stream video, but relying on the basic principals of streaming. I am old school, believing that the hard disk (blu ray) will always be best in PQ/SQ just for the reasons you stated about all of the links in the chain. As they say about compressed files (you can't replace whats been taken out). Now I know there are various levels of HD that comapnies use, so are you able to say what level of HD (720p, 1080i or 1080p) that is being sent from VUDU and the rest of them? and are they sending the full discrete 5.1 or a downmix that is being redone by your system back into a DD Prologic surround.?

EndersShadow

NeilGabriel wrote: »

My issue is with the sound quality coming from streamed videos through Netflix, Amazon and now VUDU, which boasts the higher
quality formats.

When I say signal degradation, I mean losing fidelity as the signal passes through so many devices...e.g., instead of getting the audio (and video for that matter) directly from disk to amp/receiver, I've assumed that every link in the system can affect the quality of sound. From the Uverse modem through the router through the Roku box then finally to the receiver.

Are you all suggesting that if the source material (what say VUDU is streaming) is "good", then only the quality of my video/audio
player is what matters? For those who don't know, VUDU streams in SD, HD and HDX on more recent movies and usually uses Dolby Digital +. Though they claim to stream some movies in 7.1 (I assume digital?). Roku 3's only out is HDMI.

Or, if I want to continue with quality site and sound, I just need to rent or buy the BR disks?

I remember about half of what this site has taught me over the years, but streaming is a fairly new animal for me.

The physical disc is ALWAYS going to be the best method of playback.... with that said its not always so easy to just buy every movie you want to watch. The main issue that ANY streamed movie runs into is overall network bandwidth. A full DTS Master soundtrack is NOT something most internet providers want to stream since its a VERY large file. So you are watching compressed movies if your streaming them. They are also compressing the audio to some extent. How much, well I am not so good with that, so I will leave it to others to do.

I watched Inception last night on my blu-ray player (Pio 51FD). The soundtrack soundstage and audio was IMMENSE! Earlier in the day I watched IP Man, and IP Man 2 via Netflix from my Xbox 360. It still sounded QUITE good, however the audio was IIRC either in All Channel Stereo or only 5.1. I could tell the difference after watching Inception. There was also a VIDEO difference as well as blu-ray looks much better than streamed Netflix.

But like all things compromises need to be made.

In regards to your signal chain when streaming video/audio digitally, there are MANY debates on this subject as to HOW good of Ethernet cables and whatnot you need. Most will agree that as long as those cables are of good quality and NOT causing issues your Modem -> Router -> Roku should be good. The conversion is still all digital when being sent out from your Roku, however at that point it can deal with degradation based on your HDMI cable, or how the audio and video chips in the ROKU shoot it out.

If you are concerned about your Ethernet transfers, Blue Jeans Cable makes pretty good, inexpensive Ethernet cables that may or may not make a difference to you, however they may be worth a try.

All in all signal degradation when doing digital can be much more marginal than when your talking an all ANALOG chain. With that said, again, streamed movies will suffer audio and video degradation from the source due to being compressed to allow for them to be streamed.

@recovery: I am well aware that a better PSU will eventually be in order for the classic, however its not super high on the priority list right now. I am OK with the compromises I am making with the Classic right now.

Tornado Red

So would most here say that streaming a movie at present is a more equivalent cousin to DVD and a step down from blu-ray, or is that an unfair statement?

EndersShadow

Tornado Red wrote: »

So would most here say that streaming a movie at present is a more equivalent cousin to DVD and a step down from blu-ray, or is that an unfair statement?

I would say its close. One of the MAJOR things I like about blu-ray is the audio aspect of it. For me if I think I will watch a movie twice, I look for it on blu-ray at a used location. I end up paying about the same as renting it twice from streaming services, but end up with a MUCH better audio track.

I also am hoping to sit down and make time to start ripping my existing library and audio (makemkv) so I can stream it in the future from a NAS or my main computer (with a bunch of 3 TB HDD's), making watching the movies easier. However the biggest issue with that is the size needed to keep the movie uncompressed. I haven't played with HandBrake yet, which is supposed to help you compress the video portion, but not so much you notice a drop in quality.

DVD's are very small in size compared to blu-ray from a video perspective.

recoveryone

I agree with Enders on the audio, to me that is what makes or breaks a film. I was watching Green Zone BD the other night and for not the souond it would be a uneventful movie. The director made the film with a lot of grain, especially the night scene (like looking through night vison). Audio is what brings you into the movie and have you turning your head, ducking in your seat along with answer the door when it did not ring.

NeilGabriel

recoveryone wrote: »

I personally don't stream video, but relying on the basic principals of streaming. I am old school, believing that the hard disk (blu ray) will always be best in PQ/SQ just for the reasons you stated about all of the links in the chain. As they say about compressed files (you can't replace whats been taken out). Now I know there are various levels of HD that comapnies use, so are you able to say what level of HD (720p, 1080i or 1080p) that is being sent from VUDU and the rest of them? and are they sending the full discrete 5.1 or a downmix that is being redone by your system back into a DD Prologic surround.?

Below is what VUDU says about SQ and AQ. Marketing, or quality? VUDU has/had its own box, but it is compatible with many other streaming devices.


HD

Yes! VUDU currently has deals in place with with every major motion picture studio and multiple independent studios for high-definition (HD) films. The VUDU hardware displays HD up to 1080i/1080p24. (my Roku 3 displays in 720 p or 1080p)


HDX - The Benchmark for On-Demand Picture Quality

VUDU delivers movies in HDX™ - the groundbreaking video format that delivers the highest quality true High Definition 1080p content available from any Internet, broadcast or satellite on-demand service.
Experience HDX
o True Cinematic Experience -HDX movies are displayed in 1080p at 24 frames per second, the true cinematic gold standard.
o 2X the Resolution -Ultra-detailed and virtually artifact free on any size of TV screen, HDX movies are displayed at twice the resolution of other Internet HD video formats.
o Immersive High Resolution Sound -HDX technology delivers the best available surround sound quality for Internet delivered movies with immersive, high resolution sound at a 40% higher bit-rate than standard surround sound DVD's.
o Optimized for Larger HDTVs -VUDU's unique TruFilm™ technology optimizes the encoding, transmission and display of HDX movies on 40-inch HDTVs and larger Home Theater screens.

Audio:

Dolby Digital Plus, including 7.1 (and see above for HDX with the 40% higher bit rate)

recoveryone

The key wording I was looking for was "discrete multi channel sound", Standard surround sound is vage, and that may be due that all movies (older films) were not produce with discrete channels. In the end if you like it is what counts.

tonyb

From a video perspective, and as others mentioned, if your hardwired to the TV/stereo it's not much of an issue but streaming video takes up bandwidth and the quality of that connection/service is also going to be called into question.

Certain internet services allow x amount of bandwidth at different price points. They may slow down your bandwidth if you use too much causing drop outs in video playback. That's usually the most often cause for aggravation in streaming HD video. Personally for me, I've yet to see any streamed video that matches a standard BDP in video or surround sound. But if you can deal with the compromises, rock it.

AsSiMiLaTeD

In terms of movies nothing yet widely available is as good as a Blu-ray Disc. All the HD movie streaming is not the full uncompressed video and audio so I don't use it.

Enders, for blu ray quality I would stick with mkv, you keep the original audio and video quality which handbrake will not do. Hard drive space is cheap enough these days, just stick with the real deal. I rip all my blu ray movies down now when I buy them, I very rarely ever actually put a disc in the player these days.

NeilGabriel

I read many reviews about the connection issues with Amazon Instant and even Netflix and I had them. If both determine that you cannot handle their stream, they ratchet it down.....looked less than SD in some cases. As you know, the little dots show you the quality you are getting. Amazon blames Uverse or other Internet providers.

But, with my Roku 3, I have no more connection problems. And with VUDU, I have no connection problems even with my Roku 1 (xd/s). In the fine print, I believe that Amazon says it will lower bandwidth if there is a strain on their system...even if you buy HD stream.

Would like to hear others' experience with VUDU/Roku box connections? I have given up being super critical about SQ and VQ, but the VUDU VideoQ seems very good to me on 720p and 1080i. Due to equipment issues, I cannot really comment on audio quality.

EndersShadow

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

Enders, for blu ray quality I would stick with mkv, you keep the original audio and video quality which handbrake will not do. Hard drive space is cheap enough these days, just stick with the real deal. I rip all my blu ray movies down now when I buy them, I very rarely ever actually put a disc in the player these days.

I would agree with you but at 30-80 gigs a movie, I run out of space pretty quick on my 1 TB drive. I have debated buying some 3 TB drives for my main system, but at the rate I am getting blu-rays (mostly Pixar and Disney ones for the Kido) I will keep running out of space pretty quick.

Whats the average size of your files, and how are you streaming them to your main system (XBMC, etc)

AsSiMiLaTeD

I'm still not sure I'm completely following this thread, but here's my take on streaming in general. It's best to break streaming into two types to facilitate discussion. There's local streaming and streaming online via a service like Netflix or Hulu.

Streaming from a local drive is straightforward and if your network is good you should have no issues. The quality here shouldn't be an issue, a FLAC streamed across the network should sound exactly the same as a CD and a BluRay movie ripped to an MKV should look and sound exactly the same as a BluRay played from a disc.

Online streaming is a different animal, where quality is much more variable. Online streaming for movies and music both is great for the convenience, but it's not a viable option for me as the primary means of consuming media. There are a couple reasons for this, for me it's a matter of quality and ownership.

I've yet to find either a music or video streaming service that has the same quality as a CD or a BluRay disc. Even the best music streaming service (which is MOG IMO) has sound quality that, while decent, is a good bit short of even redbook CD, much less higher resolution music. Even with no bandwidth limitations the best HD streams I've seen from the likes of Netflix and Amazon are all still a significant downgrade from a BluRay, especially with audio.

Then there's the matter of ownership. With alot of these services the content changes from week to week, you don't ever actually own any of it. I have about 1500 movies and 4500 CDs on my loca media server, and know that I'll always have access to all that content. With the streaming services titles come and go, that may get better or worse over time but since we don't know you have to assume that what you want may not be out there. Sure you can actually BUY titles thru places like iTunes and Amazon, but even then it's a compromise, you're usually paying about the same price as you would for a CD or a BluRay disc of the same title and since you're paying that same price for lesser quality it just doesn't make sense to me.

The reality though is that not everyone values the same things I do. Alot of people could probably care less about ownership, and we all know our society generally emphasizes quantity and/or convenience over quality. We're a somewhat unique subset of society so video and audio quality is more important to us, but we're a very small subset and to the majority of people MP3 and compressed video streams are probably fine.

I'm fine with streaming services and spend roughly $20 a month combined for the services I use, so clearly there's a place for them even for me. It's just not my primary means of consumption.

In the context of this thread on whether or not streaming renders high end gear useless, I'd say if all you do is stream then yeah I'd say a spending thousands of dollars on gear is kinda pointless. If you're like probably most of us here and online streaming isn't your primary means of consumption then it's different altogether, if you have alot of local streaming or playback from media then the quality of your gear is still very important.

tonyb

Very good post....^^^ excellent explanation.

Lets get back to the original question......"Is mid-fi all that streamers need?"

If your happy with it....then yes. No sense wasting big bucks if the source material doesn't stand on it's own. The best gear in the world won't polish a ****....so to speak, and I'm not calling all streamed material a **** either.

NeilGabriel

Thanks. Very good summary for me. My streaming is Internet related. As to ownership, I thought that I owned the movies that I bought not rented on Amazon. I thought the same was true with VUDU. VUDU might actually let you download the movie to your own storage device....or maybe it just keeps a digital copy for you to use anywhere.

I suppose if those companies closed up shop, I would be out of luck.

My main question about the quality of gear was answered. My take: maybe a mid-fi set up for streaming in one room and keep my high end stuff for redbook and BRD.

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

I'm still not sure I'm completely following this thread, but here's my take on streaming in general. It's best to break streaming into two types to facilitate discussion. There's local streaming and streaming online via a service like Netflix or Hulu.

Streaming from a local drive is straightforward and if your network is good you should have no issues. The quality here shouldn't be an issue, a FLAC streamed across the network should sound exactly the same as a CD and a BluRay movie ripped to an MKV should look and sound exactly the same as a BluRay played from a disc.

Online streaming is a different animal, where quality is much more variable. Online streaming for movies and music both is great for the convenience, but it's not a viable option for me as the primary means of consuming media. There are a couple reasons for this, for me it's a matter of quality and ownership.

I've yet to find either a music or video streaming service that has the same quality as a CD or a BluRay disc. Even the best music streaming service (which is MOG IMO) has sound quality that, while decent, is a good bit short of even redbook CD, much less higher resolution music. Even with no bandwidth limitations the best HD streams I've seen from the likes of Netflix and Amazon are all still a significant downgrade from a BluRay, especially with audio.

Then there's the matter of ownership. With alot of these services the content changes from week to week, you don't ever actually own any of it. I have about 1500 movies and 4500 CDs on my loca media server, and know that I'll always have access to all that content. With the streaming services titles come and go, that may get better or worse over time but since we don't know you have to assume that what you want may not be out there. Sure you can actually BUY titles thru places like iTunes and Amazon, but even then it's a compromise, you're usually paying about the same price as you would for a CD or a BluRay disc of the same title and since you're paying that same price for lesser quality it just doesn't make sense to me.

The reality though is that not everyone values the same things I do. Alot of people could probably care less about ownership, and we all know our society generally emphasizes quantity and/or convenience over quality. We're a somewhat unique subset of society so video and audio quality is more important to us, but we're a very small subset and to the majority of people MP3 and compressed video streams are probably fine.

I'm fine with streaming services and spend roughly $20 a month combined for the services I use, so clearly there's a place for them even for me. It's just not my primary means of consumption.

In the context of this thread on whether or not streaming renders high end gear useless, I'd say if all you do is stream then yeah I'd say a spending thousands of dollars on gear is kinda pointless. If you're like probably most of us here and online streaming isn't your primary means of consumption then it's different altogether, if you have alot of local streaming or playback from media then the quality of your gear is still very important.

tonyb

NeilGabriel wrote: »

My take: maybe a mid-fi set up for streaming in one room and keep my high end stuff for redbook and BRD.

Well now, hold the phone. Why can't you stream music to the main rig too. If you take a tad more concern in that area you won't need a cdp. BDP....I'd keep, but cdp can be gone in a heartbeat.

LeftCoast

Streaming online has it's place, as everyone is agreeing. Personally, I don't feel the need to own every movie I watch. Those I stream, and just leave it at that.

Then there are movies I personally want to have because of the PQ or SQ or both. I won't settle for just streaming Avatar online. I'd want to own the blu ray disc. (and do). The Coen Brothers are known for beautiful cinematography. Gotta own those.

I don't feel the need to own the Hangover movies, or the Sex in the City movie. Neither SQ nor PQ are important in these movies, in my opinion.

tonyb

True....and that's why they both will continue to co-exist.

NeilGabriel

tonyb wrote: »

Well now, hold the phone. Why can't you stream music to the main rig too. If you take a tad more concern in that area you won't need a cdp. BDP....I'd keep, but cdp can be gone in a heartbeat.

I have two really different rooms for viewing/listening.....only one HTR set up is higher end...and I will continue to use that for both disk and streaming and recognize the compromises that come with the streaming part...

and my concern is far more about video than audio...my music listening is a small fraction of what it was 10 years ago

As usual, the posts were very helpful to me.