New into Vinyl and new turntable

maximillian

I just inherited my father's record collection. It's about 30 records, mainly opera. I just bought about 20 records from Ebay, Salvation Army, and the FM here. I am not going to go super crazy with Vinly, but I wanted to see if I like it.

So far I picked up a Technics SL-1360 off of Craigslist, a Spin Clean, and some replacement record jackets. Besides the tonearm balance and cleaning some of the records I haven't done much else. I still get a lot of pops after cleaning and the sound is only OK. Some records have almost no pops, but I would have suspected a larger improvement after cleaning. I have the TT hooked up to a late 80's Technics receiver. It is pushing sound out the pre-out through an AVR (yeah, not great to do) which then drives my Adcom 6000 amp connected to LSi 9's. The AVR and Technics receiver are temporary until I can get a better setup.

I don't know how old the cartridge and stylus are. I am not sure what PN this. Can anyone identify the cartridge? I posted on Vinylengine also to see if anyone know something there, and I looked through their database but didn't find it.

I am not sure if this Vinyl trip is going to stick. I want to give it shot but if doesn't sound at least as good as the FLAC files played through the system then I'll end up dumping it. Any advice to get the most out of what I have is appreciated. However, I don't see spending any more than $200 more until such time that I commit to vinyl. So should I buy a new cartridge? Will a turntable clamp help? Clean the records some more? Anything else?

Thanks.

gudnoyez

Looks like a Audio Technica to me you have your technics reciever hooked up to your AVR, have you tried hooking up a pair of speaker only to that reciever. There should be a couple of MM settings (moving magnet) and possibly a MC setting on your phono input selector. I would think that Audio Technica is a MM try the different selections on the phono input selector and see if you notice a difference.

Vinyl that was not taken well care of wont sound good no matter how much you clean them just spend time on the pristine ones. Look at the needle doctors web sight and see what a cartridge and stylus will set you back also get you a stylus cleaner.

pumpkinman

I just don't think vinyl is something you can get into in a small way.
I'm sure there will be others who will disagree me with though.

A new cartridge at the very least or new stylus for the current one.
Try removing the cartridge and see if there's a number on the top of the body.

P-man

EndersShadow

If your using a technics, does it have a Tape Out? That would be better than using the pre-outs of the technics.

That would be one thought.

I had to physically unscrew my cartridge to see what the make and model number on it were, so you might try that as well.

mrbiron

If you can wait a week or two, i'll let you try one of my "do it yourself" phono-pre's. This will eliminate the need for that old receiver and send the signal straight through your Pioneer. (at least i think i remember you having a Pioneer??)

I just want to pick up my new Zu speakers in Shrewsbury on Tuesday night and give them a good listen with both the Bottlehead Reduction and Bugle2. I'll let you borrow whichever one i deem expendable. All in all, they both have good sound for the price.

maximillian

EndersShadow wrote: »

If your using a technics, does it have a Tape Out? That would be better than using the pre-outs of the technics.

I had to physically unscrew my cartridge to see what the make and model number on it were, so you might try that as well.

There is a tape-out. I can try it tomorrow since I don't want to wake the house up tonight.

Yup. They put it on the top of the body. The PN is AT15sa. Some people says it's a pretty good cartridge. The stylus replacement isn't cheap ($150-$200) so I would rather not spend the money if this one is good. Any way to tell? I have a microscope I can use to inspect, but I am not sure I know what to look for. I see some dirt around the stylus so I will try to clean it. Someone on Youtube recommended this stuff for cleaning:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151207397918?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Hey mrbiron, thanks for the offer. Maybe I could try it. I have a longer term DIY project to make my own preamp based on the PGA2320. That has been on hold for about a year but I picked it up again. Eventually this is what I hope to use. The Pioneer is an SC-72.

Thanks for the help guys. Any other advice on cleaning and tuning is appreciated.


Edit: under 30X mag the stylus looks like it has a definite point to it, but it's pretty filthy.

pumpkinman

maximillian wrote: »

There is a tape-out. I can try it tomorrow since I don't want to wake the house up tonight.

Yup. They put it on the top of the body. The PN is AT15sa. Some people says it's a pretty good cartridge. The stylus replacement isn't cheap ($150-$200) so I would rather not spend the money if this one is good. Any way to tell? I have a microscope I can use to inspect, but I am not sure I know what to look for. I see some dirt around the stylus so I will try to clean it. Someone on Youtube recommended this stuff for cleaning:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151207397918?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Hey mrbiron, thanks for the offer. Maybe I could try it. I have a longer term DIY project to make my own preamp based on the PGA2320. That has been on hold for about a year but I picked it up again. Eventually this is what I hope to use. The Pioneer is an SC-72.

Thanks for the help guys. Any other advice on cleaning and tuning is appreciated.

Thought it might be a AT 15
A PM sent to me when I found a AT15SS on a table I picked up recently

Hi Bill,
You scored big time!!! The 15SS is among the best MM ever made. It's the same as the 20SS, except the 20 is a hand pick 15 with matched stylus. The carts are the same. It has a beryllium cantilever and a nude shibata stylus. Compliance is 9 @ 100Hz = about 17 @ 10Hz. That's just a hair stiffer than a 150MLX which is 10cu.

Nice detail and slightly sweet, it's a very listenable cart. Load it with < 200pF total capacitance for best results. That's tonearm wire + cable + preamp. LpGear has the 20SS stylus for $225. There's a slightly less expensive 15SA stylus with alum cantilever, but I think the SS is worth it. StereoNeedles might have it for a hair less.
Good luck with it.

Best of luck with your vinyl journey Maximillian

P-man

maximillian

EndersShadow wrote: »

If your using a technics, does it have a Tape Out? That would be better than using the pre-outs of the technics.

Tape Out switch worked. Sounds way better. The flat sound is gone.Even though I ran the tone controls all flat, the receiver must still mess with the signal somehow. Thanks for the help.

I am going to try a 70% IPA / 30% water clean with a fine paintbrush and then follow it with a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser as many people swear by. Any other recommendations to clean the stylus? After that I will probably purchase a record clamp to ensure proper tracking, and then sit back and enjoy for a while. Any other general TT recommendations?

Thanks again.

EndersShadow

maximillian wrote: »

Tape Out switch worked. Sounds way better. The flat sound is gone.Even though I ran the tone controls all flat, the receiver must still mess with the signal somehow. Thanks for the help.

My guess is its got something to do with the output signal voltage from the pre-outs on that technics. The Rec out is a fixed voltage and probably lower than what the pre-out voltate is..

Mr MHardy would probably be able to explain it better .

SCompRacer

EndersShadow wrote: »

My guess is its got something to do with the output signal voltage from the pre-outs on that technics. The Rec out is a fixed voltage and probably lower than what the pre-out voltate is..

Mr MHardy would probably be able to explain it better .

You did pretty good yourself. Tape out bypasses all the signal altering functions (bass, treble, balance, gain) in your pre-amp and is a fixed line level. Pre out does not bypass those functions.

Sometimes with old cartridges the cantilever suspension can petrify or deteriorate, thus having a negative effect on sound and tracking. In a moving magnet cartridge, the stylus cantilever has a tiny permanent magnet positioned between two sets of fixed coils. The suspension maintains placement and cushions the ride. If you use any liquid stylus cleaner, the rule is avoid letting it wick up into the cantilever suspension. Think of the supension as a tiny rubber donut that supports the cantilever the stylus is attached to. Alcohol might have a negative effect on it.

Congrats and welcome to vinyl!

dromunds

Don't forget to re-align the cartridge if you removed it to check the number on top. There are lots of threads about that. Vinyl Engine should have a free alignment protractor you can print off for your table/arm.

maximillian

Thanks for all your help. The system is sounding pretty good. I did a comparison using Sting's, "Fortress around your heart" from an LP to a FLAC file from the CD.

The Flac's path is: NAS -> Xbox/Xbmc Toslink out -> DacMagic -> Pioneer SC-72 AVR.
The LP is Technics SL-1360 TT -> Technics receiver-Tapeout -> Pioneer AVR.

The AVR is set to Stereo. The pre-outs feed an Adcom 6000 amp that powers LSi9's.

Overall the soundstage and imaging seems equivalent. The Flac recordings seem to have *slightly* more pronounced highs and lows. It is very slight and almost not noticeable. The biggest issue I still have is records pops. They seem to occur at the same points in the recordings so it's either a dirty or permanently damaged record. I am now in pursuit of a better cleaning method without breaking the bank. Again, I don't want to spend lots of money just to find out that my system's digital is more enjoyable (to me) than the Vinyl route. Thankfully there's lots of guides out there. This post has some good cleaning methods:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?101122-Vinyl-Snap-Crackle-amp-Pop-Issues-and-Solutions!&

And I think I am going to try this method out:
http://youtu.be/TcgiDCW98Oc

And build my own vacuum based cleaning system. The Spin Clean system is OK, but I need deeper cleaning. I haven't settled on an exact cleaning solution yet. I am thinking dish soap or IPA. Then once vacuum cleaned I can follow-up with the Spin Clean to ensure no residue is left.

One thing I am discovering... the audio bug isn't too bad until you get into vinyl. :-)

maximillian

Resurrecting this as a continuation of my "journey"....

Since I am not quite sure how old the stylus is I decided to change the cart/stylus to an AT120E. They do still make stylus' for the AT15SA, but they are about the same amount as the AT120E, and I also wanted to try something new. I also picked up a another Technics head-shell to do an A/B comparison.

The new cart/stylus seems OK, but it seems as if I lost some bass and the sound-stage isn't as open. I know the new stylus is Elliptical vs Shibata for the original. Also the new stylus is new and I heard sometimes it takes 100 hours to burn-in. Is there anything else I could be doing wrong?

I did an alignment using the Baerwald alignment tool, and checked the tip pressure. I checked it with this cheap-o scale:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151005926404?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

It's actually quite accurate. I can compare the values to known weights such as coins:
http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/?action=coin_specifications

So that is OK. VTA is a little off as you can see in the photo, but it's the same for both carts so I don't think that is the issue. I will have to adjust once I find out how to do it.

Lastly, I am still wondering if it's just a bad combinations with the older Technics phono-pre. Perhaps it's time to change it out.

Any recommendations on what I should try first?

maximillian

Bump... any help please?

Fongolio

Definitely give the cartridge at least 100 hours to "break in". The original AT-15 shibata is an outstanding vintage cartridge. I have one and two AT-20SS cartridges and love all three. I've never heard the AT120E personally so I can't speak on it. My experience with new cartridges is, they need a bit of time to break in and open up. You could play with the stylus force a bit to start. Also make sure your anti-skate is set at about the same value as your stylus pressure. With new carts patience can be rewarding. Good luck!

nspindel

maximillian wrote: »

I am not going to go super crazy with Vinly, but I wanted to see if I like it.

Famous last words!

msg

hahaha ^^^ agreed!
I had to stop. I thought I wanted to try this, myself, and picked up a few of my favorite records - really hard to find, btw, and not cheap for the ones in nice condition!

I didn't get around to getting a record cleaner (it was on my list), or even building this leg of the system out the way I would have liked with high quality pieces, and long story short, it was really cool and romantic while it lasted, but personally, I found vinyl to be an impractical direction/venture for my listening needs/desires/finances, overall. I really wanted to build it out in order to get the true vinyl experience/benefits I've read everyone talking about, but I just couldn't see duplicating my collection with vinyl. would have been a different story had I already collected albums over the years. the clicks and pops were a little annoying - I'd forgotten about that from when I had records when I was a kid. I suppose this is what a really good record cleaner and pristine, well cared for record samples is all about. the other thing that I realized was a bit bothersome was the flipping over of the records. that time seemed to come too soon, esp with 180g double albums. I learned that I'd become so spoiled with digital, and that I just don't have the patience or even the listening time for vinyl.

even with all of that, I can completely see though how this vinyl trip can get out of hand/addictive. broke my heart a little having to tell myself 'no' to vinyl, but I had to do it. it almost felt like a bad breakup!

good luck Max! hope you enjoy yourself! it's definitely fun

maximillian

You guys are killing me.

Super crazy... only at about 80 records so far. So no. And I don't see myself topping 100. I am reaching a limit of patience.

Anti-skate was set to 1.4 just like the stylus weight. Again, did the calibration and verified with a (albeit cheapo) scale. I don't see any particles on the stylus, and use a felt brush on the record before each play as well as a carbon bristle. Both purchased off Amazon - can't recall the brands but they are for vinyl cleaning.

MSG, I have had the same thoughts about vinyl. Give up and enjoy the digital realm or keep going. Personally, I am hoping to get to a "good enough" level and be satisfied. I am not looking to duplicate my entire collection. Part of this is the nostalgia of listening to records the way I did when I was - much younger. So I am only collecting records I or my sisters had back... well a while ago. :-P

It's still fun putting on these old records and listening straight through. Perhaps not as convenient, but the closest anology to the feeling is like having a fireplace. Sure you could just turn up the furnace, but there's something special about a real fire. Same with records. Put a record on and listen all the way through.

The problem is that I would like the system to sound at least as good as my FLAC files. Otherwise I will simply not use the TT. So I bought a new stylus (did the cartridge too) and it sounds significantly worse. If I have to wait 100 hours (about 1/10 the life of a stylus), then it's like being forced to experience inferior sound for a significant time. And it took about $120 for the lesson. Not a whole lot, but still.

So I guess I am willing to put a little more money since I have come this far. So my questions are:

- Is the VTA shown in the photo above a possible explanation for the bad sound?

- Would a better pre help? I know about the DIY Little Bear Pre but heard that it suffers from hum even with shielding. Any alternate avenue without spending too much? Solid State perhaps?

- Is the burn in period the more likely culprit?

Thanks for the advice.

SCompRacer

Stay with it.

Stylus type determines sensitivity to VTA. IIRC your table does not have an adjustable arm height. However you can experiment by adding shims under existing mat or using a thinner/thicker mat. You may get poor results with no mat though. If you don't detect any changes with different VTA (and you may not) then let the cartridge fully break in.

Yes, you get gains by investing wisely in vinyl. If you diy you can often build a better phono stage than you can afford to buy retail.

Obsession18

Your VTA is a bit high, I use a business card to eyeball the tonearm to make sure it is level, this will impact the sound but don't expect it to make a night and day difference in your case – it is not that far off. Also the fact that you were originally running a Shibata stylus and then switched to an Elliptical is also contributing to worse sound; unfortunately you took a step backwards with the Elliptical.

The pre-amp is another important link in the chain, if you want FLAC like sound you will have to make an investment here, probably on the order of several hundred dollars. The Lehmann Black Cube at $449 would be a good choice:

http://www.needledoctor.com/Lehmann-Black-Cube-Statement-Phono-Preamp?sc=2&category=35460

The burn-in time in my experience has resulted in a moderate improvement in sound quality.

The bottom line in my experience with vinyl is that it doesn’t come cheap, if you are willing to make the investment it is in my opinion the superior audio format.

Msabot1

There are quite a few steps getting a table set to reproduce vinyl in the way it was meant to be listened to..a learning process that begins early on..but once you have it down it beats all other forms of format..with the exception of Reel to Reel...just keep trying..and trust your ears...after all,they are your best gauge for success....o yea...good luck in keeping your collection to 100.... Gotta grin at that one....

maximillian

Obsession18 wrote: »

Also the fact that you were originally running a Shibata stylus and then switched to an Elliptical is also contributing to worse sound; unfortunately you took a step backwards with the Elliptical.

I have a suspicion that this is the main culprit. I didn't want to spend too much money on a new stylus and figured I could do an A/B comparison between the two. So I opted for another cart and stylus. Unfortunately, it is quite inferior. On the plus side there is less crackle and pop so it makes enjoying the records more so. So perhaps this stylus is for casual listening and the other one is for critical listening. I am going to have to evaluate the old stylus to see if it is close to end-of-life. A new stylus is around $120. I'll have to pick up one of those USB microscopes to see if I can continue using the old one. Dang it, more money to this hole. At least my kids can use it for playing around.

I don't think I can fix the VTA since the arm doesn't look adjustable. A thicker mat may help but it could also ruin the sound too. Right now there's a stock rubber mat. The headshell is by Technics. Weird that it would be so off in Technics didn't make it adjustable.

I think my next steps will be to get a different phono-pre, perhaps a DIY kit that sounds decent. At least to compare with the old Technics integrated amp.

I'll stick with it a little longer, because it is fun to listen to.

msg

maximillian wrote: »

MSG, I have had the same thoughts about vinyl. Give up and enjoy the digital realm or keep going. Personally, I am hoping to get to a "good enough" level and be satisfied. I am not looking to duplicate my entire collection. Part of this is the nostalgia of listening to records the way I did when I was - much younger. So I am only collecting records I or my sisters had back... well a while ago. :-P

It's still fun putting on these old records and listening straight through. Perhaps not as convenient, but the closest analogy to the feeling is like having a fireplace. Sure you could just turn up the furnace, but there's something special about a real fire. Same with records. Put a record on and listen all the way through.

- Would a better pre help? I know about the DIY Little Bear Pre...

yes, agreed - in fact, one of the things I did enjoy about it was that it almost made me sit still to listen
and, I don't know, there's just something about watching a turntable moving and hearing the sound it makes...

SCompRacer wrote: »

Yes, you get gains by investing wisely in vinyl. If you diy you can often build a better phono stage than you can afford to buy retail.

I've read a couple of posts about this. I love the idea of these DIY projects, esp the really stripped down phono pre's.

Obsession18 wrote: »

The bottom line in my experience with vinyl is that it doesn’t come cheap, if you are willing to make the investment it is in my opinion the superior audio format.

Msabot1 wrote: »

There are quite a few steps getting a table set to reproduce vinyl in the way it was meant to be listened to..a learning process that begins early on..but once you have it down it beats all other forms of format..with the exception of Reel to Reel...

This is the second time I've seen reel to reel associated with vinyl. the first was also here in a vinyl sell-off thread where the owner had mentioned that he'd acquired the collection from a gentleman who played the albums only once to record to reel to reel. I thought all tape sucked. is reel to reel different?!? I'm presuming much better than cassette, obviously?!? 8-track, and cassette being my only real exposure to tape.

maximillian wrote: »

I think my next steps will be to get a different phono-pre, perhaps a DIY kit that sounds decent. At least to compare with the old Technics integrated amp.

I'll stick with it a little longer, because it is fun to listen to.

kind of excited if you go DIY - that stuff's fun! and yeah, the fun, that's what it's all about, right

RamZet

New music is pressed onto vinyl. Go to amazon and get some new music that also says 180g. These new vinyl records sound great.
Used and old records normally have pops and scratches.
I find that some albums sound better on vinyl. "Torches" by foster the people sounds way better when compared to the CD.
The postal service did a beautiful job with Extra, its a must own in my book.