Power Cables and Other Rubbish

Alan_r

Hello, I am beginning to upgrade all the cables in my new budget system. Details of my budget system can be found in one of my other threads here: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?154395-Stereo-image-and-soundstage.-Initial-setup-and-adjustments.

Now, before I start down this road, let me set a few guidelines regarding what I am doing and why.
First off, I have read many long threads in various forums that lumbered on, page after page, debating the importance and effect (or lack thereof) of expensive power, interconnect and speaker cables. I am not trying to prove, argue or substantiate any claims regarding perceived changes in the sound of my mid-fi system. At this point I am really quite happy with what I have in front of me playing music. However, being that this is one of many hobbies, and the fact that I like to tinker with things, I want to change out all of my cables, one by one. I am going to use mildly priced “upgrades” that are not in the realm of what a used car costs. I simply want to play with this stuff and if I “perceive” a change, well great! If not, oh well. I have the time, interest and money to do this. Now, to anyone who responds or comments on this thread; please grant me the courtesy of keeping this thread within the scope of my request and not a debate as to the effectiveness of the upgrades .

OK, where to start. Yesterday while listening to a new CD, my Marantz CD5001 began to skip on various songs. Not enough to stop it but enough to get my attention. I then tried another CD and sure enough, it began to skip randomly as well. By this morning, the CD player would not get past the Table of Contents. I then noticed the CD was not spinning once it got hung up on the TOC. From past experiences this usually means a bad optical lens and drive assembly. This happens sometimes on older gear that has been used. No big issue, a quick search on Ebay resulted in a brand new drive and lens assembly for $20 and from a US seller with a warranty. One click and it’s on its way.

I have been planning to upgrade all my cables once the system was set up and adjusted perfectly to my listening chair. So naturally this accelerated the cable upgrade for the CD player, being that I’ll have it apart. The only issue I was having is that neither the Marantz nor the NAD had an IEC connector in the back. In addition, neither component used a 3 prong grounded plug.

Before I get into the meat of all of this, I will be doing a small write up for each cable upgrade in this thread. I will be researching AC power cables for my receiver, CD player and power conditioner/surge protector. I will also then upgrade my interconnect cables from all sources. Lastly I will upgrade the subwoofer and main speaker cables.

On to the first upgrade! Here is what I have; Marantz CD5001. It has a non-grounded (2 prong) power cable that attaches directly to the internal power supply. I will be disassembling the component to replace a bad optical lens. While in there I am also looking for and caps that look abnormal. Being that it worked fine up to the lens failure, I imagine that I will not find any.
First off is figuring out the power requirements of the device. The owner’s manual states 14 watts at 120v. This works out to roughly 0.116 amps. Now that I know how big things need to be, my plan is to install a 320i IEC connector on the back of the component. There is room and a few minor cuts will allow me to place and secure it as if it was factory installed.
The plan is to use high quality twisted 12g wire from the power supply to the tangs on a EMI filtered IEC Inlet.
http://www.amazon.com/Gino-AC250V-Inlet-Power-filter/dp/B00622SU0C
This should add additional filtering and provide a connection for the new power cable. Regarding power cables, The three that I am currently looking at are:

Pangea AC-14SE, http://www.audioadvisor.com/Pangea-Audio-AC-14-Signature-Power-Cable/productinfo/PGAC14SE/#.Us-DArTpoqI

Shunyata Venom 3s, http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/power-cables-footer/55-venom-series/110-venom-3s#!venom3s_2

PS Audio Perfect-wave AC3, http://www.psaudio.com/shop/ac3-power-cable/

I think any one of these cables will transfer the power to the power supply just fine. Any comments would be appreciated as I have no experience with any of them. The only real stipulation would be that the cable must be flexible due to the way my system is positioned.

I am however, stuck in an electrical dilemma; The Marantz CD5001, as stated before, has only a non-grounded, 2 prong power plug. I am unsure as to how this can be used. One option would be to leave the ground pin in the IEC inlet disconnected. The other would be to run a piece of the power cable from the IEC connector’s ground pin inside the case to a nut and bolt secured to the inside of the CD players metal case. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on all of this? Thanks, Alan.

Hermitism

I bought a Pangea AC-14 power cable for my Blu-ray player which I use to play CDs. I also ordered some Dynamat Xtreme at the same time and they both arrived on the same day. I applied the Dynamat to the inside of the player and hooked up the new AC-14 cable and it yielded positive results in both audio and video. I can't say if it was due to the Dynamat, the cable or a little of both. I've tried to do little upgrades each month. Power cable, Dynamat, power conditioner, proper speaker placement, hdmi cable, speaker cables, and acoustic panels. What I've noticed is some upgrades may have very small/subtle differences, but once you add up all of the upgrade and tweaks, it has made a huge difference for me. The difference is substantial between now and last July when I started. I don't have the best equipment or best speakers out there, but I've tried to make my system the best it can be within reason (meaning on a budget). It's also been fun hearing the difference.

BlueFox

I wouldn't worry about the ground pin on the IEC outlet if it is replacing a two prong outlet. I have a few pieces of gear with the two prong outlets using Shunyata cables, and there are no issues. Additionally, I cut off my TV power cord a few inches before it goes into a circuit board, spliced in a Furatech IEC outlet, added a Shunyata Z Cobra, and it works great.

In so far as the power cables, I started with Pangea AC14 cables. From there I went to Shunyata Venom, and then to the higher end Shunyata line. While the Pangea did make an improvement, the Shunyata is better IMO. Other power cables might be equal or better, but I have no experience with them.

Have fun and good luck. Also, if possible I would replace the Marantz CD player with something better. You will have better luck hearing improvements with better gear.

F1nut

One option would be to leave the ground pin in the IEC inlet disconnected.

This. Some products require them to be earthed, the Marantz doesn't, so no need.

I will be researching AC power cables for my receiver, CD player and power conditioner/surge protector. I will also then upgrade my interconnect cables from all sources. Lastly I will upgrade the subwoofer and main speaker cables.

I understand your desire to do the CDP now while you have it open, but I would do the IC's and speaker cable before power cords for the rest.

Regarding power cables, The three that I am currently looking at are:

I prefer PS Audio power cords.

Speedskater

In regards to newer components that have permanently attached 2 wire cords and plugs, you should not ever modify them internally for a 3 wire cable. Why? because they have a designed & tested insulated Class 2 (or maybe it's Class II) enclosure. The internal metal chassis is not part of the Safety Ground system.


On Class II or double insulated electrical appliance's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_II_appliance#Class_II

Alan_r

Hello. Thanks for the advice so far.

Herm- I never heard of that. I've used Dyna-mat in cars for a long time but never considered using it inside an electrical component. What or who inspired you to try that?

Blu- Thanks for the personal experience opinion. I have heard many say the same thing. I really think that cables in the price range of the Venom 3 are right about where the diminishing return starts to become relevant. The PS Audio cables are on the high end of the price range I'm in. However, I know of some good used PS cables that I can get from a friend for a very good price. I believe they are the older Premiere SC line, but from reading impressions on them, they seem to be solid. I really like the Marantz; the CD5001 is well known for its ability to sound better than what you would expect for the price. One review by a large magazine, (cant remember which one) said that he was very shocked by how good it sounded. He tested it against his friends CD player which cost 3k +. He said that even though the reference CD player did sound better, he was unsure if it was so much better as to justify the price difference. Having said that, I will eventually upgrade but at this point in time I don't see the need.

Blue/ F1/ Speed- Agreed. At first I didn't consider that the Marantz would not benefit from a dedicated ground. But, the advice on not connecting the ground, being that it was designed without one, make sense. I will simply not connect the ground wire on the inside IEC connector.

Hermitism

Alan_r wrote: »

Hello. Thanks for the advice so far.

Herm- I never heard of that. I've used Dyna-mat in cars for a long time but never considered using it inside an electrical component. What or who inspired you to try that?

I did it under DSkip's tutelage. We have the same Blu-ray player. Dynamat is a favorite among the members here. It costs very little, and all you really need is the time. People put it on the inside of the cover and frame of anything that rings when you flick it with your finger. It deadens the vibration. People also use it on the baskets of the speaker drivers. If you decide to try it, get the Dynamat "Extreme" , not the original Dynamat. I've read that the original is more difficult to apply and stick, but I've never used it myself.

When I first came here, it didn't take long for me to realize I had no idea what I was doing in this hobby. So far, every recommendation here that I've tried has resulted in positive gains.

Speedskater

I to have used Dynamat like products inside the cases of components that have fans or hard drives or CD/DVD players, just to quite the machnical noise.

Alan_r

The DynaMat logic makes sense. The only thing I could quickly think of that may or may not be important is heat dissipation. Having used the different flavors of DynaMat in the past, I remember it being quite good at deflecting and insulating heat transfer. I only wonder if the metal cases on my components are assisting with the cooling. Mine get very warm to the touch. I am just brainstorming here though. Thanks for opening my eyes to another avenue to research! I went ahead and ordered the IEC320i EFI connector so parts are inbound. So now I'm looking hard at cables. F1 had suggested, and wisely so, that I update the other cables first. I agree that it would have the most "sonic impact". However, being that I am going to replace all the cables anyway, I don't see that in the end it will make much difference what comes first. Being that I am opening the CD5001 for the first time since it's been built, I figure it's the best time to do the mods. Whether I'm floored by the sky opening up and angels’ singing as the result of changing my power cord is not important to me. I am a "modder" in all of my hobbies and do not consider any project complete until I have tweaked, tuned or replaced all the components within my master list that is drawn up before I start the project. (Yes I am a OCD freak that spends hours looking at the details within any project) Anyway I'm rambling.

A while back when I laid out the ground rules for my 2 channel system, I looked at all the different cables, cords and whatnot. At the time I started to look at how some of these exotic cables were built. Though not true in all cases, I found that most of them were being built with off the shelf components from other manufacturers. The successful and hard to find Jellyfish power cable is a good example. Most if not all the parts were sourced from hospital grade electric parts stores. While learning about all the new and improved cables out there, I noticed that the most important difference between standard zip cords and upgraded cables was RFI/EMI shielding. I would think that unless you tried to use a ridiculously thin wire (think 22g on a 500w amp), any 14g and lower cable should be more than adequate for my needs. So, I did that wonderful thing that lots of us like to do; Virtual Shopping!
I put together the parts required to build an aesthetically pleasing, bullet-proof 12g fully shielded power cable.
Belden 83803 12awg 3 conductor shielded power cable 5' $63.25
Marinco 5266BL 5-15 straight blade power plug $8.38
Techflex Expandable sleeving Red 25' $12.30
12mm Heat Shrink 3:1 w/adhesive $6.90
Ferrite Core 3/8 noise suppressor $1.95
$92.78 total
That’s a lot of money for the components to something I still have to build. It would seem that either my home grown cable is built with better components than a cable like the Pangea AC-14S or they can really discount everything due to volume. Not to mention, my home grown cable does not need the IEC connector at all. It can be simply soldered to the power supply- thereby becoming a captive, upgraded and shielded cable. Thoughts?

Alan_r

Alright, the show is moving forward. I decided to do the power cable upgrade on the Marantz CD5001 being that it will be torn apart for a optical lens replacement. On that note, I found it funny that my Marantz CD player has a big old SONY logo on the top of the optical lens...is there anything that does not have Sony or Honda on it anymore? Anyway, a fellow member of PA forum sold me a Shunyata Venom 3s cable- well regarded in the budget cable class. This will plug into the Monster HTS3500 MKII power unit. I then bought a 10 amp, EMI/RFI filter IEC plug. I will Dremel out the hole in the back of the CDP and mount it permanently where the stock captive plug exits. Thereby converting the CDP from captive to removable power cords. (The IEC inlet plugs were available in a non-filtered version as well but for the extra $2.00 it made sense to add another filter. I then purchased a couple feet of Belden 83803 shielded 12 AWG cable. This will be soldered to the IEC plug to the power supply. As recommended, I will leave the ground pin disconnected. Overkill and redundant? Yep! But this will be a fun little project nonetheless. I would think that due to the new lens and filtered, shielded heavier gauge power wire, this will be the best that this little CDP can do.

treitz3

I wouldn't necessarily call it overkill. There are many on this board who customize and modify, so you should feel right at home. Here's an example of a CDP that has been modified by one of our resident members at Club Polk.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?45292-Jolida-CDP-quot-AA-Top-Fuel-Dragster-Mod-quot&

Tom

tonyb

modified gear is an endless pursuit of time and money spent. There's always something you can swap out for better.

The Shunyata Venom 3 is about as good a cable you can expect in that price class but let me just say plug it into the wall instead of the Monster PC and see if you hear a difference. Monster Pc'ers have a filtering effect that kinda rounds out the notes from my own experiences. Which is why I went to PS Audio for that task, better definition.

BlueFox

Shunyata does not believe in filters on AC circuits. At least not filters composed of components such as coils, chokes, inductors, capacitors, etc. Their power conditioners use passive material that does not restrict current, while removing noise from the power. Their power cords and conditioners are designed to maximize instantaneous current delivery (DTCD) within the respective price range. Filters degrade DTCD, which degrades the sound. This is all clearly explained in the technical section of their web-site.

My suspicion is adding a filter to the IEC connector will degrade the benefit of the Venom power cable.

tonyb

BlueFox wrote: »

My suspicion is adding a filter to the IEC connector will degrade the benefit of the Venom power cable.

Agreed.....less filtering the better.

pitdogg2

Hold the phone boys....

Did you know that many makers of audio gear use those IEC's in the gear they sell? Unless you open it up and look you may never your gear has one of those.

Just sayin.....

BlueFox

He is modifying a piece of gear to have one that was not there before. There is no guarantee it will make it better, and a good chance it will degrade performance. Just sayin......

pitdogg2

completely understand...

F1nut

I only wonder if the metal cases on my components are assisting with the cooling. Mine get very warm to the touch.

Doubtful. Just make sure you do not block any vent holes/slots. Very warm to the touch is perfectly normal for some gear, depends on what it is and the design. I'm at a loss why so many folks think that is a bad thing these days.

This will plug into the Monster HTS3500 MKII power unit.

I'll be blunt, it's a piece of junk that degrades the sound.

I then bought a 10 amp, EMI/RFI filter IEC plug.

I have to agree with Tony and BlueFox, use the non-filtered version. The new shielded power cord is all you need.

SCompRacer

Alan_r wrote: »

OK, where to start. Yesterday while listening to a new CD, my Marantz CD5001 began to skip on various songs. Not enough to stop it but enough to get my attention. I then tried another CD and sure enough, it began to skip randomly as well. By this morning, the CD player would not get past the Table of Contents. I then noticed the CD was not spinning once it got hung up on the TOC. From past experiences this usually means a bad optical lens and drive assembly. This happens sometimes on older gear that has been used. No big issue, a quick search on Ebay resulted in a brand new drive and lens assembly for $20 and from a US seller with a warranty. One click and it’s on its way.

Not uncommon for readers to fail. I've replaced a couple in Sony's. Since they are sensitive to ESD, usually they short a couple of traces with a solder bridge. After it is installed, you must de-solder the bridge for it to work. That isn't always indicated when you buy the part so it is worth some research if you don't know for sure.

brgman

Hermitism wrote: »

I applied the Dynamat to the inside of the player and hooked up the new AC-14 cable and it yielded positive results in both audio and video. I can't say if it was due to the Dynamat, the cable or a little of both.

I find doing one tweak at a time is the best way to hear what each does or doesn't do.As much as we want to throw everything at it all at once for the best and fastest improvement,if you do it that way you won't know what worked best.

Loud & Clear

But if you really want to elicit that last bit of spaciousness, 3 dimensionality, and micro-detail, you need to step up to Coconut Audio's line of power cables and assorted tweaks. Whether it's the Dolphin Power Ultra, the Cleopatra Power Ultra, the VibraDome colored eggs, etc., is up to you. The following is taken directly from their site.

"To get the best sound, you should spend at least 95% of your entire system on our cables, 4% on our tweaks, and 1% on electronics.

Any electronics will do. When buying more expensive gear, it's just a side step into another flavor. A DAC with a plastic vs metal enclosure gives a huge difference in sound, but it's not the DAC itself that gives the difference, it's what's placed around it = the enclosure. When you add something on top of the enclosure, the overall resonant properties of the entire enclosure changes, based on the material of the tweak. This is why our tweaks give greater improvements than "upgrading" the DAC or other component. In fact, many audiophiles get more transparent sound from cheap electronics because they have a lower mass, which results in less colorations.

Our cables are something special, they change the resonant properties of the signal that runs through the wire. This is done using piezoelectric quartz crystal formulas to manipulate the jitter while keeping bit-perfect data. The conductor and dielectric materials become meaningless because the crystals dominate the overall sound characteristics.

Our products not only improve the audio system, they improve bad recordings as well. This is because with our crystals, the musical signal is overwritten with a new and better signal that is synergized perfectly with the human brain. The more of our products you use, the stronger the effect becomes, because our products will dominate the overall resonant frequency, and not the electronics themselves."

pitdogg2

Cheezy's back:twisted:^^^^^^^^^^^

Loud & Clear

I should be so lucky. Alas, just another fan of game-changing high-end cabling.

tonyb

Loud & Clear wrote: »

I should be so lucky. Alas, just another fan of game-changing high-end cabling.

Your nose is growing.....lol.

Is the Venom 3 power cord your idea of high end cabling ? Just curious is all.

BTW- f1nut as blunt as he is, hit it. I've had Monsters top power conditioner and the lower line of PS Audio power conditioners smoked it. Not even a comparison.

sucks2beme

Ok, cables are nice, but please, RUN A DEDICATED OUTLET 1ST.
A good 20 amp circuit for your stereo/ht is always a good idea.
who knows what light fixtures, appliances, etc. are on the same
breaker as your stereo. For the kind of money power cables are going for,
the dedicated outlets make good sense.

tonyb

I still haven't figured out what the "...other rubbish" is yet.

pitdogg2

tonyb wrote: »

I still haven't figured out what the "...other rubbish" is yet.

Keep talkin

tonyb

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Keep talkin

Your fixin' for a lawn dump son....LOL !!

Hermitism

brgman wrote: »

I find doing one tweak at a time is the best way to hear what each does or doesn't do.As much as we want to throw everything at it all at once for the best and fastest improvement,if you do it that way you won't know what worked best.

Yep, I completely agree with you! It was purely by coincidence that both the Dynamat Xtreme and power cord arrived on the same day. After I applied the Dynamat, I didn't have the patience to wait a week or two to install the new PC. I was like a kid on Christmas and had to try out every gift immediately.

Alan_r

T3/F1: “Here's an example of a CDP that has been modified by one of our resident members at Club Polk.” Ah….F1, you are doing/have done exactly what I want to get into after I’m done with this system. I am about to retire at a very young age and will have more time on my hands than I’ll know what to do with. I needed to find hobbies that were less physical than my current interests and repair, rebuild and upgrades on old audio equipment fit the bill completely. You should see my shop list- Amazon’s going to have a field day with the list of repair and diagnostic tools I’ll be ordering from them. At the moment, I have the tool set required to rebuild engines and restore old sailboats. However, my electrical diagnostic and repair set is beyond a really expensive multi meter, quite basic. It has been said that old NAD amps sound good not because of build quality, but because of the chemistry of the components.

TonyB: I have not noticed any changes with regards to the music with the HTS3500. It may be in my head but I thought I noticed a slightly more silent background when I turned up the volume of my amp with no signal being sent to it. I checked this with a sound level meter and it was minimal. It measured at less than 1db @ 1 meter difference. Possibly due to the meter not being sensitive enough…?? I bought it more for its protective quality rather than for sound improvement.

I am confused as to the responses regarding the IEC filter. It was my understanding that filtering, provided that it allows the proper amperage through, would always be a good thing. The idea being that anything other than the actual sound recorded; detracts from the sound we are trying to hear. I could understand this if we were talking about a high draw piece of equipment, such as a high power amplifier, but a low draw CDP? Can you guys explain the logic to me? From experience in car audio, the only additional circuits that I ever added were large capacitors; these helped supply additional power during very high demands from large amplifiers and subwoofers. I never worried about signal cleansing because road noise removed the possibility of hearing the details anyway. In what way would the IEC filter degrade the sound? I did in fact order both filtered and non-filtered IEC inlets. They were only a few dollars so no harm, no foul.

F1: I understand why things get warm and do not see it as detrimental. While doing a quick mental rundown of the mod, I did not know if the case material assisted in the cooling effects of the equipment. On some of the really high dollar, Line Replaceable Units found within our fire control computers, the unit is sealed (howitzers are not usually used in clean environments), and the outer casing provides the surface area and in effect, is the heat sink. I didn’t know if this principle might be applied to our audio equipment.

SRacer: I’ll take a few pictures of the new unit. I do not see any place that suggests anything needs to be unsoldered. Maybe I’m missing it. I could understand why they would do it. People underestimate just how powerful ESD can be. I rebuild and repair a lot of laptops as a side hobby. I can’t tell you how many motherboards I have had to replace because someone along the way decided to upgrade a processor and disregarded the warnings regarding ESD. My work area consists of a mat large enough for my wheel chair, a wrist band with wire to an alligator clip and ESD resistant gloves. Can’t be too careful with ESD. Give me a bit and I’ll post pictures of the lens.

Bman: Agreed. I don’t have any Dynamat handy and decided to try it at the last minute. It won’t be before I replace the lens and cord (provided the cord gets here within a few days). I’ll be taking it back apart to do that.

As far as running a dedicated line; I live in a rental so that won’t be happening. My current career required me to move every 4-5 years. It’s not smart to buy houses. However, now that it is coming to an end, we will be moving and purchasing eventually. The Wife has already insisted on a separate “man’s area” within the house for all my toys and a separate shop for the bigger ones. 

“Other rubbish”; without turning this into a debate, I am not fully convinced that all of this will really add to my listening enjoyment. Science tells me it shouldn’t. As I said in a different thread, I noticed a change in the image when playing around with different speaker wires. Different and better are two very different words. I think the trick is to find which “different” sounds best to you. Having said this, I enjoy building and modifying things. Sometimes I enjoy that more than the actual usage of the equipment. Example: I spent four years and 25k building a track car for SCCA/NASA racing. After building it and setting it up, I took it to the track once. Sold it immediately afterwards and moved on to another project. Other Rubbish is my self-directed and self-inflicted joke referencing my opinions on what sounds better to me. 

Again, thanks to everyone who is taking the time to write a few words on this thread. Most of you have already walked down the road I am on and I really appreciate the directions I’m being given at each intersection. More to follow, Alan.

SCompRacer

Alan_r wrote: »

SRacer: I’ll take a few pictures of the new unit. I do not see any place that suggests anything needs to be unsoldered. Maybe I’m missing it. I could understand why they would do it. People underestimate just how powerful ESD can be. I rebuild and repair a lot of laptops as a side hobby. I can’t tell you how many motherboards I have had to replace because someone along the way decided to upgrade a processor and disregarded the warnings regarding ESD. My work area consists of a mat large enough for my wheel chair, a wrist band with wire to an alligator clip and ESD resistant gloves. Can’t be too careful with ESD. Give me a bit and I’ll post pictures of the lens.

.

Just a heads up....I've seen them on Sega's, Denon and Sony optical readers so they do exist...lol An example of one for a Wii.