Balanced VS UNbalanced

Phish56466

For those who have done the side by side comparisons. I'm wanting to know if you can hear a difference between balanced and unbalanced interconnects. I'd also like to know the gear and how comparable you think it is(HOPEFULLY with the same speakers as a reference point). I'm trying to decide if I REALLY want to make the jump cost wise. Seems to me that the gear with balanced connections is quite a bit more than the unbalanced gear. And do you think it was worth it?

pearsall001

Phish56466 wrote: »

For those who have done the side by side comparisons. I'm wanting to know if you can hear a difference between balanced and unbalanced interconnects. I'd also like to know the gear and how comparable you think it is(HOPEFULLY with the same speakers as a reference point). I'm trying to decide if I REALLY want to make the jump cost wise. Seems to me that the gear with balanced connections is quite a bit more than the unbalanced gear. And do you think it was worth it?

I was just reading an extensive interview article with Roger Sanders over on Audio Circle. Here's what he had to say about balanced vs unbalanced.

Do you think balanced topology is a must for best sound?

No. Balanced topology is inferior to unbalanced. This is because balanced equipment is much more complex so has twice the noise and distortion of unbalanced equipment. Simplicity and purity is best.

But balanced equipment is able to reject external noise fields (RFI and EMI) better than unbalanced gear. Therefore balanced equipment is needed for professional applications where high external noise fields are present -- like when making live recordings.

The typical home does not have any problem with external noise fields, so balanced equipment is not needed in the home. So I always use unbalanced equipment unless I am forced to use balanced equipment due to external noise problems.

Note carefully that there is nothing magic about balanced operation. One simply uses two phases of the same signal for balanced operation. Only one phase is used in an unbalanced system. Therefore the signals in a balanced and unbalanced system are the same. So there is no actual sound difference between them. However, because there are two identical signals in a balanced system, the noise and distortion will be doubled.

Audiophiles usually think that balanced operation is better because it plays slightly louder. Louder sound sounds better to us, so most audiophiles are tricked into believing that balanced sound is better. But if they matched levels in their testing, they would discover that there is no difference in the sound of a balanced and unbalanced system.

Right or wrong? I'm sure opinions vary on this very subject. Me personally I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Phish56466

THIS was exactly the reply I was wanting. Thanks for the info!

Face

If your equipment is fully balanced, meaning you have fully balanced circuitry and not just balanced connectors, go for it. If not, don't bother.

Phish56466

CURRENTLY none of my gear is balanced. Was delving into the idea and was looking for feedback from experience.

F1nut

If the gear isn't a true balanced design throughout, there's no point in using balanced cables.

Edit: Face beat me to it.

Glen B

"Balanced topology is inferior to unbalanced" ? "Balanced equipment is not needed in the home"? What hypocrisy. This comes from the same guy who makes home audio electronics with balanced connections. Internally balanced circuits exhibit lower noise and distortion vs gain than unbalanced.

Glen B

Double post.

billbillw

Nelson Pass, Victor Khomenko, Gilbert Yeung, and several other notable experts in the field would strongly disagree with Mr. Roger Sanders. Who is he anyway?

I will agree that using balanced connections within a circuit that is a single ended design is a waste and probably sounds worse than using single ended connections. However, if you have a true balanced circuit from source to amp, then there can be noticeable improvements. Of course, you have to go high dollar to get that type of system. Overall, I wouldn't worry about it. Single ended can sound great. I had a BAT preamp. It sounded great, but I didn't have a balanced source, or a true balanced amp, so I could not hear a difference between using XLR or single ended connections between the amp and preamp.

GlennDog

Face wrote: »

If your equipment is fully balanced, meaning you have fully balanced circuitry and not just balanced connectors, go for it.

How can I determine if my gear has "full balanced circuitry" vs. "just balanced connectors"
I would even know what to look for if I popped the hood
Specifically, the good Oppo 105 and Aleph 30

No thread hi-jacking intended . . .

billbillw

GlennDog wrote: »

How can I determine if my gear has "full balanced circuitry" vs. "just balanced connectors"
I would even know what to look for if I popped the hood
Specifically, the good Oppo 105 and Aleph 30

No thread hi-jacking intended . . .

Usually, the manufacturer touts it heavily. I highly doubt the Oppo has it. Balanced circuit CD players are rare and usually very expensive.
The Aleph, quite possible. Check the Pass Labs site.
EDIT: A quick check finds that the Aleph 30 is definitely single ended. 1st paragraph of the owners manual.

zane77

From what I have read the Oppo 105 is fully balanced but it has both balanced and unbalanced outputs.

Speedskater

Hold on, we could have the very rare "full balanced circuitry". That is to say, all the internal circuits are truly balanced.
Or we could have a balanced input stage and a balanced output stage. (with the option of a unbalanced input and/or output stage.

You might be able to list on your fingers all the Stereophile tested brands that have "full balanced circuitry".

GlennDog

zane77 wrote: »

From what I have read the Oppo 105 is fully balanced but it has both balanced and unbalanced outputs.

Thanks Bill and Zane . . . . but Speed can you be a little more specific. Now I'm confused.

billbillw

OK, I did some checking, looks like the Oppo 105 does have true balanced circuit.

aboroth00

billbillw wrote: »

Usually, the manufacturer touts it heavily. I highly doubt the Oppo has it. Balanced circuit CD players are rare and usually very expensive.
The Aleph, quite possible. Check the Pass Labs site.
EDIT: A quick check finds that the Aleph 30 is definitely single ended. 1st paragraph of the owners manual.

All Aleph amps are single ended. The Oppo uses an op amp to create the "illusion" of balanced. It does not use a balanced transformer which amplifies both positive and negative legs separately to create a balanced signal. That would probably make the unit much, much more expensive. The semantics between balanced and truly balanced are sort of dubious so technically they can still say it's truly balanced.

BlueFox

I have balanced cables for my interconnects. I never compared them to unbalanced so I can not comment whether one is is better or not. From my perspective I see two main points.

1. The balanced connectors provide a secure locking connection.
2. If you ever buy gear that does not have balanced inputs, and your cables are balanced, then you will need to buy new cables. This can be expensive.

billbillw

aboroth00 wrote: »

All Aleph amps are single ended. The Oppo uses an op amp to create the "illusion" of balanced. It does not use a balanced transformer which amplifies both positive and negative legs separately to create a balanced signal. That would probably make the unit much, much more expensive. The semantics between balanced and truly balanced are sort of dubious so technically they can still say it's truly balanced.

You sure? Oppo says it has a fully differential signal path for the 105 on the balanced connection. Modwright refers to a fully balanced section when it talks about mods for the 105. I haven't studied the circuit, nor do I plan to, but it sounded like a little more than the typical opamp balanced conversion that you see on most single ended amps/preamps.

aboroth00

billbillw wrote: »

You sure? Oppo says it has a fully differential signal path for the 105 on the balanced connection. Modwright refers to a fully balanced section when it talks about mods for the 105. I haven't studied the circuit, nor do I plan to, but it sounded like a little more than the typical opamp balanced conversion that you see on most single ended amps/preamps.

I believe they use an op-amp from the DAC's output so they can technically claim it is balanced from the DAC to the XLR output. Again, very dubious wording.

aboroth00

By no means is the Oppo a great player, I own one myself but paying just 1.2k for a truly balanced player with all the bells and whistles is too good to be true.

FTGV

The Oppo 105 2ch is fully balanced.Since the DAC chip cannot drive the outputs directly ofcourse they use op-amps,one op amp section drives the non inverted half of the output another drives the inverted half of the differential output signal.
As for the Aleph 30 while it's output stage operates in single ended Class A the input is fully balanced as it simply consists of pair of differentiallly connected MOSFETS.

aboroth00

FTGV wrote: »

The Oppo 105 2ch is fully balanced.Since the DAC chip cannot drive the outputs directly ofcourse they use op-amps,one op amp section drives the non inverted half of the output another drives the inverted half of the differential output signal.
As for the Aleph 30 while it's output stage operates in single ended Class A the input is fully balanced as it simply consists of pair of differentiallly connected MOSFETS.

I think the issue is whether it uses a balanced transformer vs op amp. True balanced would mean separate complete stages for each leg. Instead, op amps are used and the positive leg would be inverted to act as the negative leg. That's my understanding of the issue.

FTGV

As I said above each phase of the diffrerential signal has it's own opamp section.Therefore the inverted and noninverted halves of the signal are completely independant from the DAC chip through to the XLR output connectors.

aboroth00

FTGV wrote: »

As I said above each phase of the diffrerential signal has it's own opamp section.Therefore the inverted and noninverted halves of the signal are completely independant from the DAC chip through to the XLR output connectors.

Hmm... I thought the point of having a balanced signal is amplifying each half separately. An opamp, correct me if I'm wrong, simply inverts the positive signal to create the negative half while a true balanced transformer would amplify the negative half as is. Otherwise why would we ever use an balanced transformer over an opamp?

FTGV

aboroth00 wrote: »

Hmm... I thought the point of having a balanced signal is amplifying each half separately.

Yes thats what I described above.

An opamp, correct me if I'm wrong, simply inverts the positive signal to create the negative half

That ,an inverting opamp is the method commonly used for adding balanced output to a single ended circuit.If the circuit is balanced from the start such as the DAC chip in the OPPO 105 the opamps will be configured in a noninverting mode since the two separate signals already have the correct phase.

aboroth00

FTGV wrote: »

Yes thats what I described above.That ,an inverting opamp is the method commonly used for adding balanced output to a single ended circuit.If the circuit is balanced from the start such as the DAC chip in the OPPO 105 the opamps will be configured in a noninverting mode since the two separate signals already have the correct phase.

Ah, I see that the Oppo uses two op amps on the output. That explains it. What would the difference be if they had used balanced transformers instead of op amps on the output? I know there's a little squabbling over what true balanced really means.

aboroth00

I'm still under the impression that only using a balanced transformer would qualify as "truly balanced" vs using extra amplification stages (op amps). But I can see why Oppo could and is claiming that their design is truly deferentially balanced.

Using two op amps would qualify as "active balanced,"

Taken from wiki:

Electronic balance, or active balance, is achieved using differential amplifiers at each end of the line. An op-amp implementation of this is shown in figure 6, other circuitry is possible. Unlike transformer balance, there is no isolation of the circuitry from the line. Each of the two wires is driven by an op amp circuit which are identical except that one is inverting and one is non-inverting. Each one produces an unbalanced signal individually but together they drive the line with a symmetrical balanced signal.

Phish56466

I'm gathering that the ONLY way to be sure your gear REALLY has a balanced design is to study the scats, rather than trust the hype. Anyone know off hand if the Onkyo PR-SC885 has balanced outputs on the XLRS or is just a hoax? As for the amps I'll use, that's easily remedied if need be. Another question-wouldn't a TRULY balanced design be classified also as a differential amplifier?

Speedskater

The Doug Self paper on "Balanced Line Technology"

http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/balanced/balanced.htm

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The Rod Elliott edited Bill Whitlock paper.

"Design of High-Performance Balanced Audio Interfaces"
Bill Whitlock - Jensen Transformers, Inc. (Edited By Rod Elliott)

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/balanced-2.htm

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The Mike Rivers paper:

"Balanced and Unbalanced Connections"

http://mikeriversaudio.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/balanced-unbalanced_revised.pdf

other Mike Rivers papers:

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com/technical-articles/

zane77

Great articles, I bookmarked this for further review. Thanks!

FTGV

aboroth00 wrote: »

I'm still under the impression that only using a balanced transformer would qualify as "truly balanced" vs using extra amplification stages (op amps).

" fully balanced" can be defined as any circuit that has a full duplication of identical cicuitry for both phases of the differential signal,be it op amps or discrete transistors or tubes.For preamps and amps it would mean being balanced entirely from input to output.For a DAC or CD player it would be having a completely balanced analog section from the output of a dual differential dac chip to the output connectors.