Rear speakers for RTi8

Archigos

Working to finish my speaker purchases on my 5.1 setup and I am hoping to get some input/advice on the surrounds.

Currently on the way are a pair of RTi8s (Fronts) and a CSi5 (center).

I see the RTi4's on sale for around 120 by me and was curious if for movie/tv watching these would be sufficient or if I would have to go for something higher RTi6/FXi line. I am still reading up on bi-pole vs di-pole threads trying to see if I can gain some more insight about what that means as well before making a purchase.

Thanks for the help and support.

- Arch

cnh

RTI-4s would be fine back there. The FXis would give you greater dispersion, though. But if the 4s are placed properly and everyone is sitting in their path on a sofa that would be less of an issue. The 4s would work better in a smaller room (not that small).

And if you're going 7.1 the 4s would be perfect for the surround back, you don't need dispersion as much there as you do on the sidewalls.

cnh

Archigos

I never though of placing them in the 7.1 setup you mentioned so that is a great idea. I may pick these up while they are on sale and then wait til the FXi go on sale later on and then I can switch up the positioning.

I was leaning towards the RTi(4 or 6) as I believe these are Monopole instead of the Bi/Di-pole. My thought is because this is a corner room in an open floor plan(only 3 walls) having the sound point directly to the sitting area would hopefully give a better overall experience. This is only my guess though as I have no math/experience/knowledge to back this up.

I do keep reading about matching your speakers together. RTi4's are 5.25" and the RTi6 are 6.5" which match the RTi8's. I know primarily to match the Front and Center. Would I be sacrificing much by going with the smaller drivers?

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Direct Radiating Speakers
A direct radiating speaker outputs sound directly into the room towards the listeners. Surround sound effects in movies, music and games are most noticeable with direct speakers. In general, most people prefer direct speakers if they listen mostly to multichannel music. Direct speakers are placed at the sides or rear of the listening room behind the listeners.

Bipole Speakers
Bipole surround speakers have two or more speakers that output sound from both sides of the cabinet. If used as side surround speakers, the sound is output both towards the front and rear of the room. If used as rear surround speakers, they output sound in both directions along the rear wall. The dual speakers used in a bipole speaker are ‘in phase’, meaning that both speakers output sound simultaneously. Bipole speakers create a diffuse surround effect so the location of the speaker cannot be pinpointed. In general, bipole speakers are a good choice for movies and music and are usually placed on the side walls.

Dipole Speakers
Like a bipole speaker, a dipole speaker outputs sound from both sides of the cabinet. The difference is dipole speakers are ‘out of phase’, which means that one speaker is outputting sound while the other is not, and vice-versa. The purpose is to create a very diffuse and enveloping surround sound effect. Dipole surround speakers are usually preferred by movie enthusiasts and are also placed on the side walls."

cnh

You won't lose much going with the smaller driver because you'll probably cross over at 80hz and at that frequency the 4s and the 6s would be a little difficult to distinguish from each other.

As far as matching, that's far less important in surrounds. You have your front three so you're good!

The only thing the 6s add is more low end and that's already covered by your SUB.

Good plan. Get the 4s now, use them as sides and switch them to surround back later after getting some FXis?

cnh

Archigos

Well it will be covered by my sub. That is pretty much the last thing besides speaker cable/Adapters.

I've been heading alot about the Bic America F12 and the SVS. I'm not sure how much I'll end up paying for a sub for my setup. Ideally I was going to start with PSW100 but I'm thinking to really get a good one I'll have to start in the 5-600 range.

The only tidbits I recall so far is somewhere and if they are more myth then fact I'd love to hear opinions.

They suggested 1) not going for a down firing sub if you have hardwood floors. I don't remember the reasoning though.

And 2) look for a sub not made by Polk as they don't seem to be the best for the money. But I've seen many people very pleased with them at the same time.



P.S. CNH I feel like you should get a commission for all the help you do on these forums. Greatly appreciated.

- Arch

HTguru1982

I'll offer another opinion on the surrounds. In my experience, larger has always been better. I've never been satisfied with any surround speaker(Polk or otherwise) with a woofer smaller than 6.5". I've had the RTi4, FXi3, RTi28, FXi30, FX300i, RT25i, and even some KEF dipoles(can't remember the model number) and while they weren't awful by any means, they just lacked a real sense of scale.

When I used their larger counterparts, RTi6, RT35, FXi50, RTi38 and so on, it felt like the back of the room just opened up. At one point, I had a vintage Monitor set up with RTA12C's up front with the Monitor 7C as surrounds, and the sense of authority those 7's imposed was unreal. I even tried the RTA12's as surrounds(for fun) and holy shiznit, I had never heard such awesomeness. Unfortunately, this was too much so I put the 7's back in their place.

If you look at my sig, you'll see that I'm currently using RT55's as surrounds and these use dual 6.5" woofers and the sound is incredible. I know I'm in the minority here but I just hold true to the idea that you should get the biggest surround speakers you can. Those RTi6's would be great but I would even opt for another pair of RTi8's if you have the space. Some might say it's a waste. I respectfully disagree!

cnh

That's what we're here for. I certainly know any number of people who've gone BIG in the back. I'm NOT against that. I just think you won't hear much of a difference unless you're running a power amp on everything--pumping the entire field up.

The "room" is also of consequence here. In my room, which is not that big, I don't feel I gain much going larger, but if you need to cover a larger area, more drivers can't hurt?

The one thing you definitely need is a GOOD SUB.

So onto those myths.

I don't know why you would NOT want a down firing sub on a hard wood floor? You might have a problem with it floating across your floor because of its vibrations, but you should decouple the sub from the floor anyway if you can.

Polk's newer DSW subs and MicroPros are pretty good subs. The older subs not as much.

SVS makes some "great" subs. The BIC sub is OK for the price, it competes with the Polk PSW505 which I find a best value if you can find it for 200 or less. If you want to go cheap and still have a competent SUB. That's not a bad way to go.

The main criticism of Polk's current SUBs is that you can get better value for your money from SVS, Hsu, PSB, etc.

In other words, not that the Polk subs are bad, but they're a little "pricey" for what you get!

cnh

Archigos

HTguru1982 wrote: »

I'll offer another opinion on the surrounds. In my experience, larger has always been better. I've never been satisfied with any surround speaker(Polk or otherwise) with a woofer smaller than 6.5". I've had the RTi4, FXi3, RTi28, FXi30, FX300i, RT25i, and even some KEF dipoles(can't remember the model number) and while they weren't awful by any means, they just lacked a real sense of scale.

When I used their larger counterparts, RTi6, RT35, FXi50, RTi38 and so on, it felt like the back of the room just opened up. At one point, I had a vintage Monitor set up with RTA12C's up front with the Monitor 7C as surrounds, and the sense of authority those 7's imposed was unreal. I even tried the RTA12's as surrounds(for fun) and holy shiznit, I had never heard such awesomeness. Unfortunately, this was too much so I put the 7's back in their place.

If you look at my sig, you'll see that I'm currently using RT55's as surrounds and these use dual 6.5" woofers and the sound is incredible. I know I'm in the minority here but I just hold true to the idea that you should get the biggest surround speakers you can. Those RTi6's would be great but I would even opt for another pair of RTi8's if you have the space. Some might say it's a waste. I respectfully disagree!

I certainly can't agree or disagree until I get a chance to listen to a setup like that, but as far as the RTi4 vs RTi6 go. I just picked the RTi4's update since they were on sale for 120. Seemed like a decent price for my first setup. And the good thing is i should have all the pieces in by mid next week so I can plug it up and see how everything sounds (minus the sub I need to shop around for and speaker cables). Thanks for the input. I may later decide to upgrade the rears to the RTi8's if I find them on sale again, or maybe get some RTi10s and shift everything around.

Archigos

cnh wrote: »

That's what we're here for. I certainly know any number of people who've gone BIG in the back. I'm NOT against that. I just think you won't hear much of a difference unless you're running a power amp on everything--pumping the entire field up.

The "room" is also of consequence here. In my room, which is not that big, I don't feel I gain much going larger, but if you need to cover a larger area, more drivers can't hurt?

The one thing you definitely need is a GOOD SUB.

So onto those myths.

I don't know why you would NOT want a down firing sub on a hard wood floor? You might have a problem with it floating across your floor because of its vibrations, but you should decouple the sub from the floor anyway if you can.

Polk's newer DSW subs and MicroPros are pretty good subs. The older subs not as much.

SVS makes some "great" subs. The BIC sub is OK for the price, it competes with the Polk PSW505 which I find a best value if you can find it for 200 or less. If you want to go cheap and still have a competent SUB. That's not a bad way to go.

The main criticism of Polk's current SUBs is that you can get better value for your money from SVS, Hsu, PSB, etc.

In other words, not that the Polk subs are bad, but they're a little "pricey" for what you get!

cnh

Having only done about 20 minutes of research on subs/brands/prices/etc so far. I greatly appreciate the tips and corrections to posts that have been misleading.

My soon to be starting rig will be RTi8 (front), RTi4 (Rear) CSi5(Center) with a Denon AVR-X2000 which I just got down to 600.00.

Could you suggest 3 or more subs that would pair well and price ranges I should reasonably be able to find them in if i wait. (No rush on this even though I want it now)

I seem to find the following recommended or mentioned in many threads.

Bic F12 - $180-220.
Polk 505 - $230-250
SVS SB1000 - $500.00

HTguru1982

Cnh is dead on. Polk subs are okay, especially the 505 for under $200. As impressive as it was for the price, I was blown away when I got my hands on a SVS. Night and day. No better way to describe it.

HTguru1982

Don't worry about a thing, the RTi4's are fine performers. $120 is a great price for those. In a small-medium room, they'll do great. My listening room is on the large side that opens into another and having larger speakers in the back helps tremendously.

zane77

You should be able to find a 505 for 200 or less

Archigos

I think I am already leaning more towards the SVS. Mainly I seem to see more people saying the SVS sounds less distorted. I'll have to try and do some listening tests here in the near future if I can find someone who carries them.

I am not sure which models I should be looking into though. The SVS SB1000 seems like a good price without knowing much about the quality. Are pretty much all SVS subs a safe investment?

cnh

SVS makes a good sub. One you'll hold onto for a while. Thinking of upgrading to one, myself.

The PB-1000 reaches lower and probably punches harder than the sealed SB-1000? It would be the choice for HT LFEs. the PB-12NSD is "better" but a bit more coin. I would go with the 12" or higher model (PB-12Plus) as my upgrade because my current SUB is not that bad and I'd need to step up over the $500 mark to get significantly better performance?

But I'd say that the PB-1000 is a fine performer in its price range and hard to beat there.

cnh

Archigos

SB-1000 vs PB-1000
Both @ 500.00
SB-1000 is 12" and the PB is 10"

I am currenting reading up on ported/sealed subwoofers and trying to understand the differences.

Ignoring those qualities would the 12" beat out the 10" in terms of SQ or will ported/sealed become a greater factor than I realize currently.

Also what is the recommended site for cables/banana plugs? Is it still Monoprice? I see them having a coupon code for 10.00 off 30.00 for new customers.

http://slickdeals.net/permadeal/111194/monoprice---monoprice-coupon-additional-savings-for
Code is TAXACT10 for those who don't wish to go to the site. **NEW CUSTOMERS ONLY**

And I was thinking if using open screw banana plugs for the receiver and closed screw for the speakers. I'm assuming of course there is no issue with mixing/matching them. Has anyone had a bad experience with either connectors?

HTguru1982

http://www.nakamichiplug.com/product-0534B.html for your plugs
http://www.accessories4less.com/ for cables

I've had great experiences with both sites.

cnh

Archigos wrote: »

SB-1000 vs PB-1000
Both @ 500.00
SB-1000 is 12" and the PB is 10"

I am currenting reading up on ported/sealed subwoofers and trying to understand the differences.

Ignoring those qualities would the 12" beat out the 10" in terms of SQ or will ported/sealed become a greater factor than I realize currently.

Also what is the recommended site for cables/banana plugs? Is it still Monoprice? I see them having a coupon code for 10.00 off 30.00 for new customers.

http://slickdeals.net/permadeal/111194/monoprice---monoprice-coupon-additional-savings-for
Code is TAXACT10 for those who don't wish to go to the site. **NEW CUSTOMERS ONLY**

And I was thinking if using open screw banana plugs for the receiver and closed screw for the speakers. I'm assuming of course there is no issue with mixing/matching them. Has anyone had a bad experience with either connectors?

Sorry my bad. I thought that was reversed. But the real question here is which sub can pound lower. And here is your problem. The SB-1000 is less than 30lbs and sealed with about the same power as the PB-1000 which is 46lbs, and in a LARGER CAB that is ported.

The SB reaches to 24hz and the PB to 19hz according to SVS. That IS a hearable difference that would make a difference in a bass heavy Movie soundtrack. The physics would favor a Larger cabinet that is ported as opposed to a larger driver in a smaller cab with the same power.

Rule of thumb. The SB "might" be a little tighter in its sealed cab, but the PB should have more bass slam.

The next step up, the PB-12NSD is 66lbs. with a 12" driver in a still larger cab with a little more power. And the 12Plus weighs a whopping 127lbs?

The weight is a combination of larger size and internal bracing and construction which is necessary for good bass (driver size, magnet weight, and excursion and available power are also factors--see smaller sealed subs that are rated 1000-2000 watts with extremely heavy magnet assemblies--this is to compensate for the smaller cab size and the only way to do it). A great sub is rarely a "light" weight.

Look at Polk's own higher end SMALL sub. An 8" driver in a small cab with a passive radiator membrane (like a port) on the bottom. A low of 22 or 27hz at -3db. 1200 watts of power and 2400 watts peak in a 34lb. package? You can see how POWER compensates for smaller drivers and cabs here. But some of that weight is also the MAGNET on the 8" driver!

cnh

mr2686

I have the same set up as you with the 4's in the back, and I think you'll be very pleased. I'm also looking at SVS for a new sub, and have narrowed it down to either 1 PB-12NSD or 2 PB-1000's. I'll probably go with the better sub.

Archigos

mr2686 wrote: »

I have the same set up as you with the 4's in the back, and I think you'll be very pleased. I'm also looking at SVS for a new sub, and have narrowed it down to either 1 PB-12NSD or 2 PB-1000's. I'll probably go with the better sub.

Let me know what you end up with. If I end up getting impatient (Which is highly probably) and buying one I'll let you know as well.

So far I have the RTi4 and the CSi5 in. Receiver and Fronts should be here by monday/Tuesday.

Trying to figure out where to place everything now. This center is a monster... pretty excited.

seabeerob213

i was thinking of 8's, or 6's on stands for my fronts, maybe my monitor 30's or DT PM 800's for a 7.2, but i may want to amp my fronts if I go 7 channel, and dont think my old kenwood amp is up to it. Will probably go with 6's, as with 2 psw 505's i dont see the need for towers, plus they're harder to drive.

mr2686

seabeerob213 wrote: »

i was thinking of 8's, or 6's on stands for my fronts, maybe my monitor 30's or DT PM 800's for a 7.2, but i may want to amp my fronts if I go 7 channel, and dont think my old kenwood amp is up to it. Will probably go with 6's, as with 2 psw 505's i dont see the need for towers, plus they're harder to drive.

The 8's are not hard to drive at all, and for me, I think they sound better than the 6's plus you don't have to spend the money on the stands. Either way you'll have some nice Polk speakers.

seabeerob213

true, i dint say theyre har to drive, just harder than the 6's, especially on a full RTi load on an AVR, or my little kenwood 2 channel that would be used if i go 7.2, but it could be for a center or for surrounds.

Archigos

Is there any issue with mixing Banana plugs?

I was thinking about using open screw for the back of the receiver and closed screw for going into the speakers. I can't imaging this causing an issue but was hoping to verify before purchasing.


In regards to Speaker cable.

2 Runs will be about 45-55 ft in length, and the other 3 runs will be between 4-12ft.
If I can use 14 AWG for the whole setup without much issue this would make it much easier with purchasing. But I wasn't sure if I should really drop down to the 16 AWG for the short 3 runs.

Thanks again.

- Arch

seabeerob213

i run 11 GA to my front 3, and the plugs on my L/R match each other, and my center and surrounds match, should be ok if you keep same plugs on one cable, although if both +/- match each other, you can run bananas to bare wire, or spades, and I dont like the idea, but i different pair of bananas.

mr2686

Yes, but harder is a relative term, and the 8's sound great with even a entry level AVR (probably the only RTI line speaker that does). Once you go up the line then you start having much more of an issue. A full AVR load should not affect the 8's...and I know this from experience.

seabeerob213

ok, well that makes my decision a bit easierm or maybe harder, lol

mr2686

LOL. It's never easy, but the good thing about the 8's is they're the smallest of the RTI towers yet their sound really fills the room. You can also get the most out of them by using the tone controls on your AVR and not necessarily adding more power to them (although that helps too).

seabeerob213

still gotta find money and room, lol