May I ask you all a question about high intensity (halogen) recessed lighting?

mhardy6647

We have numerous small recessed ceiling light fixtures in the new house equipped with high-intensity halogen (I presume) lights with parabolic reflectors... you know, the kind that look like Kodak Carousel slide projector lamps!

One has burned out tonight... I was examining the fixture and I realize that I have no idea how to remove/replace the lamp! I've looked at the lamps (halogen and LED versions) at the Home Despot... and I know there are 12V and 120V versions; the former have two blade pins; the latter two stepped round connectors. I am not even sure if our ceiling fixtures are 120V (although I suspect/assume they are)! The lamp assembly is pretty deeply recessed in the fixture, and it is not at all obvious how the lamp can be removed. Do you happen to have any experience with/knowledge of these?

Here's a photo of one (the one with the burned out bulb!):


high intens ceiling fixture 122513 by mhardy6647, on Flickr

This seemed like a good place to ask; thanks for your consideration & Happy holidays!

mrbiron

Most likely the stepped round connectors you speak of. Twist counter clockwise. If you can't get to the bulb, remove the trim kit.
Then, go ahead and scrap the rest for LED's.

heartystatue

I have these type of bulbs and I think they're a little difficult to remove so I hope your access to them is close. I have to push in a bit and then turn ccw to remove. Looking at your pic I would almost think the trim piece has to come out/down to get enough grip to remove it. Good luck!

dkg999

The trim should be held tight to the ceiling by spring loaded wire clamps. You should be able to pull the trim down and unhook the wire springs, just be careful not to let the spring loaded wires lose and let them fly wherever. Depending on what type of base they used, it may be easy to replace the entire unit, or not.

B Run

Keep in mind if they're on a dimmer you can't use led's.

mrbiron

B Run wrote: »

Keep in mind if they're on a dimmer you can't use led's.

Unless you buy one of the fancy shmancy Lutron (or equivalent) dimmers. Problem is, LED's don't step down like a incandescent which you can dim to basically nothing. The LED's i just installed in my kitchen might dim to about 75% which is barely a difference at all.

oh well...

dkg999

The replacements for our good old-fashioned light bulbs all pretty much suck.

mhardy6647

I like the LEDs I've tried so far; I particularly like the power consumption on 'em and the lack of heat.

Actually, I am OK with CFLs but I don't like the fact that I've had a few fail somewhat catastrophically (the ballasts haven't caught fire but they sure got hot and smelled bad). I also have a minor objection to the mercury in 'em - but my issue with that is more with the current over-reaction to the hazards of tiny amounts of mercury... still, a lighting future sans mercury is preferable for all parties concerned.

Thanks for the tips; our fixtures seem to be the pull-down type - I'll pull one down and see exactly which lamp I need later (the rest of the family beat me to the room in question this morning and are in their working on a jigsaw puzzle... again).

Tornado Red

Like others have said, LED is the way to go if you're not using a dimmer. I have a gang of 6 similar to yours, they're all halogen. I remember installing them and the instructions saying to keep the canister at least 3" away from anything combustable (floor joists, etc). And of course anything creating that much heat is not cheap to operate. For me though, I do run a dimmer and I don't really use them much, so I keep them as is. Mercury is supposedly the second most toxic substance on earth next to plutonium, don't know if I'd take even a small amount too lightly. Good luck in your bulb exchange!

zingo

Also keep in mind that if the fixture wasn't designed to use LEDs, especially if the bulb is down facing, the heat generated in the fixture can significantly shorten the life of the LED bulb. Modern LED bulbs are rated at a given life span, based on a specific operating temperate, and I guarantee you that will be exceeded in most fixtures not specifically designed for cooling LEDs.

4xoddic

Can a suction-cup type bulb remover be of any use? In my experience, the bi-pin type can be a pain to remove. A woman's dexterity proved to be better than my own.

I changed out bad bulbs in a chandelier in the 3-story lobby of a 1920s theatre I worked in. A-frame ladder with straight extension. At 16YO & $0.75/hr, I was expendable.

I replaced all but the dining table chandelier incandescents in our home over a decade ago. I've noticed some fluorescents have scorched their fixture bases (replaced fixtures). Recently found a dead helical which had melted the tube near the base (burning hot when I went to unscrew it).

My BIL's buddy recently retired from Phillips as a commercial sales rep. He sold all of his accounts on replacing with LED & was pretty sure this had eliminated his sales base for a looooong time. I'm sure my sister has a closet-full of 60W incandescents in prep for unobtanium days to come.

mhardy6647

zingo wrote: »

Also keep in mind that if the fixture wasn't designed to use LEDs, especially if the bulb is down facing, the heat generated in the fixture can significantly shorten the life of the LED bulb. Modern LED bulbs are rated at a given life span, based on a specific operating temperate, and I guarantee you that will be exceeded in most fixtures not specifically designed for cooling LEDs.

Interesting indeed - I thought that the high efficiency of LEDs was part of their charm... they don't generate much heat. I'll grand you that "not much heat" is not identical to "no heat"... but I think I might still experiment with one in that application. If the lamp says "do not use in enclosed fixtures" or "do not install in inverted fixtures", I'll stick with halogen.

polk500

Hello, I do believe when you buy the replacement bulbs they come with a little plunger device that you just push up unto the flat part of the bulb half a turn and then pull down reverse for the replacement. That's how I replace mine.

Cheers
Roger

SCompRacer

These halogen eyeball spots above the fireplace mantle in the family room have been going for 9 years. They are controlled by a dimmer and used everyday for several hours. I'd have to dig up the instructions from the archives to figure out how to get the bulbs out....

mhardy6647

Yeah, it was trivially easy to replace - the fixture is held in place by spring clips... a little gentle persuasion pops it loose.
The bad one was 12V 50 watt lamp (i.e., MR-16 style).

New LED lamp now installed and looks great to me; also bought some of the standard issue halogens if anything goes awry.

4xoddic

Good work! I suppose the jigsaw puzzle was completed.

nguyendot

I have started replacing the entire fixture since they seal to the ceiling and leave no gap for air to get into the attic/ceiling/etc. It makes for a cleaner install and they're dimmable to about 10% which is pretty cool. 9.5 watts vs 100, and what seems like 50% brighter. I only get the Eco Smart brand from Home Depot as it has the best reviews, most uniformity and is available in 2700k warm or 5000k daylight.

zingo

From EDN Network 10/30/2013:

Most readers are aware of all the recent hoopla regarding 40- and 60-watt LED versions of standard 40- and 60-watt bulbs. Prices have dropped sharply, appearances have become somewhat standardized and dimmable versions are becoming commonplace. So now most of the media and blogosphere time is spent in infinite speculation about the pros and cons and timing of when we will have such bulbs with built-in Wi-Fi, color tuning, smartphone gadgetry, retail pricing at the $1.50 level, and the pros and cons of the versions at Wal-Mart versus those at Lowe’s and Home Depot.

Perhaps time for a reality check or two... meaningful for the average consumer, who has no little or no clue about CCT, CRI, or heat sinking as they buy light bulbs to simply put light when and where it’s needed and doesn’t need it to be iTunes compatible.

First some facts: For decades consumers have come to assume (a reasonably valid assumption) they can buy almost any CFL and screw it into any place they previously had a 40W or 60 W incandescent bulb. Maybe it would not allow dimming...maybe it was slow to warm up... maybe the color consistency was not as expected... and some “mongrel” brands have proven not to last as long as was thought. In most cases, however, CFLs have proven to be a good return on investment, lasting much longer and sharply reducing electricity costs. The hundreds of millions sold globally suggests they provided pretty much what was expected.

It follows then that consumers now have a similar expectation for LED versions, with even longer life and greater electricity savings, dimming, and even better color consistency. What’s not to like as prices keep coming down?

Let’s shift gears a second. Probably 95% of all UL approved recessed down-light fixtures have, for decades, incorporated simple inexpensive “thermal cutouts”. Why ? Because if a consumer installed an incandescent bulb of higher wattage than recommended, “bad things” could happen in the light fixture. Fixture makers learned early on that if there is a socket, many consumers will assume it’s good for any bulb, which is not expressly warned against.

Back to our story: Turns out that the consumer’s assumption is not valid: that the LED bulb is just another upgrade like the CFL. As noted, folks assumed that anywhere you had the 40W or 60W incandescent, you could screw in the CFL. This is not at all the case for a 40 or 60 watt-equivalent.

Within an LED bulb the internal generation and distribution of heat is such that it “desperately” needs access to cool surrounding air. The fact that it has that metallic housing is irrelevant in restricted air.

That 60 watt Wal-Mart bulb, when operating base down in open air and not even using a shade, has its internal LED case at 85°C, the absolute upper end of what is considered “safe” for full life expectancy. The same deal is true for competitive bulbs. Put a shade around it... and it’s a little warmer. Put it into any kind of base-up socket and it gets a lot hotter and all life expectancy numbers are off the table. Put it into any kind of porch or post light fixture, and it can fry, with its internal power supply components at the cliff edge of failure. Put the lamp in a ceiling-mounted fully enclosed fixture and set the timer for when failure will occur.

In other words, totally unlike incandescent and substantially unlike a CFL, reliability and life expectancy go down hill sharply as soon as you install it anywhere that air is restricted. Guess what? A large percentage of places for LED best value is in those place where access is difficult and air is restricted. LEDs do not target a “table-lamp-only” marketplace.

All A-19 (60 W equivalent) LED manufacturers could solve the problem immediately with a 25 cent fix—a simple “cookbook” thermistor circuit that automatically dims the light to a safe thermal equilibrium level as things are getting too hot—and protects the unknowing consumer against himself. LED luminaire makers have been doing this for some time because they concluded it would be foolhardy not to do it.

We’ve see some mighty big LED bulb recalls in last two years stemming from thermal design carelessness. Before we get too enamored with thoughts of LED lamps that double as party lights or Wi-Fi hot spots, let’s first make sure they meet fundamental expectations as a trustworthy long-life, electricity-saving source of light for basic needs. We’re not there yet because this very real issue is being ignored by every existing supplier, without exception, of 40-, 60-, and 100-watt equivalent A-19 style LED bulbs.

zingo

From EDN Network 10/30/2013:

Most readers are aware of all the recent hoopla regarding 40- and 60-watt LED versions of standard 40- and 60-watt bulbs. Prices have dropped sharply, appearances have become somewhat standardized and dimmable versions are becoming commonplace. So now most of the media and blogosphere time is spent in infinite speculation about the pros and cons and timing of when we will have such bulbs with built-in Wi-Fi, color tuning, smartphone gadgetry, retail pricing at the $1.50 level, and the pros and cons of the versions at Wal-Mart versus those at Lowe’s and Home Depot.

Perhaps time for a reality check or two... meaningful for the average consumer, who has no little or no clue about CCT, CRI, or heat sinking as they buy light bulbs to simply put light when and where it’s needed and doesn’t need it to be iTunes compatible.

First some facts: For decades consumers have come to assume (a reasonably valid assumption) they can buy almost any CFL and screw it into any place they previously had a 40W or 60 W incandescent bulb. Maybe it would not allow dimming...maybe it was slow to warm up... maybe the color consistency was not as expected... and some “mongrel” brands have proven not to last as long as was thought. In most cases, however, CFLs have proven to be a good return on investment, lasting much longer and sharply reducing electricity costs. The hundreds of millions sold globally suggests they provided pretty much what was expected.

It follows then that consumers now have a similar expectation for LED versions, with even longer life and greater electricity savings, dimming, and even better color consistency. What’s not to like as prices keep coming down?

Let’s shift gears a second. Probably 95% of all UL approved recessed down-light fixtures have, for decades, incorporated simple inexpensive “thermal cutouts”. Why ? Because if a consumer installed an incandescent bulb of higher wattage than recommended, “bad things” could happen in the light fixture. Fixture makers learned early on that if there is a socket, many consumers will assume it’s good for any bulb, which is not expressly warned against.

Back to our story: Turns out that the consumer’s assumption is not valid: that the LED bulb is just another upgrade like the CFL. As noted, folks assumed that anywhere you had the 40W or 60W incandescent, you could screw in the CFL. This is not at all the case for a 40 or 60 watt-equivalent.

Within an LED bulb the internal generation and distribution of heat is such that it “desperately” needs access to cool surrounding air. The fact that it has that metallic housing is irrelevant in restricted air.

That 60 watt Wal-Mart bulb, when operating base down in open air and not even using a shade, has its internal LED case at 85°C, the absolute upper end of what is considered “safe” for full life expectancy. The same deal is true for competitive bulbs. Put a shade around it... and it’s a little warmer. Put it into any kind of base-up socket and it gets a lot hotter and all life expectancy numbers are off the table. Put it into any kind of porch or post light fixture, and it can fry, with its internal power supply components at the cliff edge of failure. Put the lamp in a ceiling-mounted fully enclosed fixture and set the timer for when failure will occur.

In other words, totally unlike incandescent and substantially unlike a CFL, reliability and life expectancy go down hill sharply as soon as you install it anywhere that air is restricted. Guess what? A large percentage of places for LED best value is in those place where access is difficult and air is restricted. LEDs do not target a “table-lamp-only” marketplace.

All A-19 (60 W equivalent) LED manufacturers could solve the problem immediately with a 25 cent fix—a simple “cookbook” thermistor circuit that automatically dims the light to a safe thermal equilibrium level as things are getting too hot—and protects the unknowing consumer against himself. LED luminaire makers have been doing this for some time because they concluded it would be foolhardy not to do it.

We’ve see some mighty big LED bulb recalls in last two years stemming from thermal design carelessness. Before we get too enamored with thoughts of LED lamps that double as party lights or Wi-Fi hot spots, let’s first make sure they meet fundamental expectations as a trustworthy long-life, electricity-saving source of light for basic needs. We’re not there yet because this very real issue is being ignored by every existing supplier, without exception, of 40-, 60-, and 100-watt equivalent A-19 style LED bulbs.

Tornado Red

Great post Jake, lots of interesting info. I guess the issue is "long-life" bulbs and company profits are at polar opposites. I remember getting into CFLs fairly early on, about 12 years ago or so. I'm still using bulbs installed from that era, but newer CFLs don't seem to have the legs the initial ones did. Maybe that's just my imagination, but it appears they found a way to make them not last as long. No money in us bulb shopping once every 15 years. Perhaps LED are heading down this same path.

WilliamM2

How many Polk members does it take to change a light bulb?





Sorry, couldn't resist.