RTi12/RTi10 unstrapped?

msg
msg Posts: 10,221
edited December 2013 in Speakers
Hey guys,
got a question.
just getting started with my system and this will be a long term project as I build it out.

I'm trying to decide on a set of speakers and am inclined to take advantage of the discounts I'm seeing on the earlier RTi line. I'm considering three different speakers at this point:
RTi8
RTi10
RTi12

RTi8 - will run with existing basic system 80w/ch receiver, thinking about bi-amping; have a separate sub
RTi10/12 - same deal here, except I am wondering whether I could unstrap the woofers for now and run only the upper array until I decide on a separate amplifier to drive them full range?


preference is for music, home theater a secondary consideration.
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  • Geoff4rfc
    Geoff4rfc Posts: 2,463
    edited December 2013
    msg wrote: »
    Hey guys,
    got a question.
    just getting started with my system and this will be a long term project as I build it out.

    I'm trying to decide on a set of speakers and am inclined to take advantage of the discounts I'm seeing on the earlier RTi line. I'm considering three different speakers at this point:
    RTi8
    RTi10
    RTi12

    RTi8 - will run with existing basic system 80w/ch receiver, thinking about bi-amping; have a separate sub
    RTi10/12 - same deal here, except I am wondering whether I could unstrap the woofers for now and run only the upper array until I decide on a separate amplifier to drive them full range?


    preference is for music, home theater a secondary consideration.

    You could but I don't think you would like it. I have a second set of A9's I use for rears. When I first put them back there, I removed the jumpers and just used the upper........sounded okay?????, I put the jumpers back in and so much better.

    You can run them full range with just an AVR, just have some restraint on the volume. And go ahead and go 12's. I ran mine on just my AVR and they sounded great and had some great bass too.
    Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2

    Cables: AudioQuest McKenzie XLR's/CDP/Amp, Carbon 48/BRP, Forest 48/Display, 2 channel speaker cable: Furutech FS Alpha 36 12AWG PCOCC Single Crystal (Douglas Connection)

    EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
    When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,729
    edited December 2013
    will run with existing basic system 80w/ch receiver, thinking about bi-amping; have a separate sub

    What model AVR do you have? 80wpc is not much and while it might run the RTi8's ok, just ok, it will not run the others very well at all. Bi-amping with an AVR is not bi-amping, so forget about it.
    same deal here, except I am wondering whether I could unstrap the woofers for now and run only the upper array until I decide on a separate amplifier to drive them full range?

    The crossover setting rolls off, it is not a sharp cut off. Disconnecting the woofers will not result in good sound.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,221
    edited December 2013
    F1nut wrote: »
    What model AVR do you have? 80wpc is not much and while it might run the RTi8's ok, just ok, it will not run the others very well at all. Bi-amping with an AVR is not bi-amping, so forget about it.

    The crossover setting rolls off, it is not a sharp cut off. Disconnecting the woofers will not result in good sound.

    yeah, I know it's a pretty wimpy receiver - it's just a little Pioneer VSX-521K that a friend offloaded. temporary while I catch up on tech to determine what I really want to put the funds toward. considering something in the Yamaha line-up, but not sure what yet.

    okay, so, second person to say forget about bi-amping. what am I missing? how does this not utilize the power from unused channels? all I have connected right now are the front, center + sub.
    Geoff4rfc wrote: »
    You could but I don't think you would like it. I have a second set of A9's I use for rears. When I first put them back there, I removed the jumpers and just used the upper........sounded okay?????, I put the jumpers back in and so much better.

    You can run them full range with just an AVR, just have some restraint on the volume. And go ahead and go 12's. I ran mine on just my AVR and they sounded great and had some great bass too.
    Hey Geoff - thanks for the info! this is interesting, but great to get some real world feedback on this.

    yeah, tough to sift through the research sometimes. I'm seeing people saying that RTi10/12's without an amp is pretty anemic, whereas a set of RTi8's with a sub sounds better (better than the RTi10s, specifically, in that particular thread).

    so do you think I'll still get better sound out of a set of 12's with that nice high-mid array even though I don't have the power to drive the bottom end? and can probably still just use the sub for a while? would I set these to small, or just change the crossover in the receiver? or neither? suppose I can experiment.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,729
    edited December 2013
    considering something in the Yamaha line-up, but not sure what yet.

    Yammies are bright, RTi/RTiA are bright. Not a good combo
    okay, so, second person to say forget about bi-amping. what am I missing? how does this not utilize the power from unused channels? all I have connected right now are the front, center + sub.

    Bi-amping requires separate amps with their own power supplies and the use of active crossovers. Anything other than that is ghetto bi-amping at best. An AVR has one power supply and the more channels you use, the less wpc it can produce. Your AVR is rated at 80wpc and that is either with 1 or 2 channels driven. Using 4 channels will drop the wpc rating much lower.
    so do you think I'll still get better sound out of a set of 12's with that nice high-mid array even though I don't have the power to drive the bottom end?

    Hell no. It's not just the bottom end that benefits from power.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Geoff4rfc
    Geoff4rfc Posts: 2,463
    edited December 2013
    msg wrote: »
    yeah, I know it's a pretty wimpy receiver - it's just a little Pioneer VSX-521K that a friend offloaded. temporary while I catch up on tech to determine what I really want to put the funds toward. considering something in the Yamaha line-up, but not sure what yet.

    okay, so, second person to say forget about bi-amping. what am I missing? how does this not utilize the power from unused channels? all I have connected right now are the front, center + sub.


    Hey Geoff - thanks for the info! this is interesting, but great to get some real world feedback on this.

    yeah, tough to sift through the research sometimes. I'm seeing people saying that RTi10/12's without an amp is pretty anemic, whereas a set of RTi8's with a sub sounds better (better than the RTi10s, specifically, in that particular thread).

    so do you think I'll still get better sound out of a set of 12's with that nice high-mid array even though I don't have the power to drive the bottom end? and can probably still just use the sub for a while? would I set these to small, or just change the crossover in the receiver? or neither? suppose I can experiment.

    Absolutely!!!

    The bi-amp from the AVR is pretty much a gimmick. Just about everyone at one time or another has tried it and only those that take to the placebo effect believe in it. I did it and wanted to hear a difference but to no avail, it was same sound I was getting it just took me more work to get it :cheesygrin: Trust me, it's much easier to just run one set of cables from one set of terminals to the speaker.
    Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2

    Cables: AudioQuest McKenzie XLR's/CDP/Amp, Carbon 48/BRP, Forest 48/Display, 2 channel speaker cable: Furutech FS Alpha 36 12AWG PCOCC Single Crystal (Douglas Connection)

    EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
    When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,221
    edited December 2013
    F1nut wrote: »
    Yammies are bright, RTi/RTiA are bright. Not a good combo

    Bi-amping requires separate amps with their own power supplies and the use of active crossovers. Anything other than that is ghetto bi-amping at best. An AVR has one power supply and the more channels you use, the less wpc it can produce. Your AVR is rated at 80wpc and that is either with 1 or 2 channels driven. Using 4 channels will drop the wpc rating much lower.

    Hell no. It's not just the bottom end that benefits from power.

    what is a good AVR for use with the RTi/A speakers?

    ahh, I see. makes sense with the single power supply.
    what's your take on powering speakers? is it best to go with both a higher power AVR, say, 135w/ch @ 8ohm, and also a good amp for the fronts?

    I understand it's not just the bottom that benefits from power. that question was posed more with relation to whether underpowered RTi12's with the high-mid array would still outperform RTi10's or RTi8's in the upper range only with the same receiver. I do like the idea of dual mid drivers up top as opposed to singles. what would be your recommendation at this point? the RTi8's for "fill" while I wait on building out the rest of the system properly? I would like to enjoy a bit fuller sound while I work this out.
    Geoff4rfc wrote: »
    Absolutely!!!

    The bi-amp from the AVR is pretty much a gimmick. Just about everyone at one time or another has tried it and only those that take to the placebo effect believe in it. I did it and wanted to hear a difference but to no avail, it was same sound I was getting it just took me more work to get it :cheesygrin: Trust me, it's much easier to just run one set of cables from one set of terminals to the speaker.
    great! thanks for the info! I'll start looking into receivers next, and/or a proper amp. I presume a higher power AVR along with a nice amp is most desirable for proper power of center and rear channels? rears aren't high on my priority list right now. immersive theater is nice, but that's way down the road since the home is in reno right now, too.
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  • michael1947
    michael1947 Posts: 775
    edited December 2013
    A good AVR would be an older Harmon Kardon, pre HDMI, 300 - 400 $, delivering 110 wpc All Channels Driven, transformer the size of a compact spare tire and weighs around 60 pounds.
    Main Family Room: Sony 46 LCD, Sony Blue Ray, Sony DVD/VCR combo,Onkyo TXNR 708, Parasound 5250,
    Polk SDS-SRS with mods, CSI 5 center + Klipsch SC2, Polk RT2000P rears, Klipsch KG 1.5's sides, Polk Micro Pro 1000, Polk Micro Pro 2000, Polk SW505, Belkin PF60, Signal Cable Classics,Monster IC's, 2 15 amp circuits & 1 20 amp circuit.

    Living Room: Belkin PF60, Parasound HCA2200, MIT ProlineEXP balanced IC's,Emotiva XDA-1 DAC/Pre,Emotiva ERC2 transport,MIT AVT2, Polk LSI 9's.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,729
    edited December 2013
    what is a good AVR for use with the RTi/A speakers?

    Any one of the Pioneer Elite SC series AVR's will drive the RTi8/RTi10's or A5/A7's pretty well. No AVR will drive the RTi12 or A9's properly.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Geoff4rfc
    Geoff4rfc Posts: 2,463
    edited December 2013
    F1nut wrote: »
    Any one of the Pioneer Elite SC series AVR's will drive the RTi8/RTi10's or A5/A7's pretty well. No AVR will drive the RTi12 or A9's properly.[/QUOTE]

    True statement however, you can get by with just an AVR until you're ready to add some power from an amp.
    Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2

    Cables: AudioQuest McKenzie XLR's/CDP/Amp, Carbon 48/BRP, Forest 48/Display, 2 channel speaker cable: Furutech FS Alpha 36 12AWG PCOCC Single Crystal (Douglas Connection)

    EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
    When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman
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  • Irrenhaus
    Irrenhaus Posts: 1,092
    edited December 2013
    Hi

    Don't know were are you located. But Fry's has the RTi8's for $376.00 a pair. No affiliation.

    Cheers
    HTAVR-Pioneer SC99XPA-DR3 Differential Reference AmpPolk R-700Rear- RT150Side- RT150Center-CSi5Sub-Rythmik audio F25Player- Panasonic DP-UB9000Projector- Optoma CinemaX P2Screen- Silver Ticket Products STR Series 6 120"Audio Room 2ch rig.Cary AE-3, Onkyo M-504, Marantz SA8005, Azur 851NWharfedale - Linton, SVS SB12-NSDMinis Forum PC (streamer) and Panamax MX5105Headphone rig;Schiit JOTUNHEIM and different headphones.Samsung 42" flat screen TV.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,221
    edited December 2013
    michael1947 wrote: »
    A good AVR would be an older Harmon Kardon, pre HDMI, 300 - 400 $, delivering 110 wpc All Channels Driven, transformer the size of a compact spare tire and weighs around 60 pounds.
    now you're talkin'! I'd like to try to find one of these older receivers to try out. I may have a look around. I never really knew what the difference was between the old real-deal receivers and the newer cheaper ones back when I bought my first receiver when I was a kid. all I knew was that they were way too expensive for me, haha
    F1nut wrote: »
    Any one of the Pioneer Elite SC series AVR's will drive the RTi8/RTi10's or A5/A7's pretty well. No AVR will drive the RTi12 or A9's properly.
    yes, I heard a nice demo of some B&W's last Fall running through a Pioneer Elite - no further amplification, and they sounded NICE.
    Geoff4rfc wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    Any one of the Pioneer Elite SC series AVR's will drive the RTi8/RTi10's or A5/A7's pretty well. No AVR will drive the RTi12 or A9's properly.[/QUOTE]

    True statement however, you can get by with just an AVR until you're ready to add some power from an amp.
    and this is the plan for now.

    I went with a set of the RTi10's, and am shopping receivers next.
    also subs. kinda curious about the SVS and HSU stuff, just from an bit of an underground preference.
    thinking about a Denon receiver, though need to look into amplifiers, too.
    nbrowser wrote: »
    An AVR/2 channel receiver will power an A7...but not to the point of real joy. Taken from experience. End of list.
    understood. I'd like joy if I can have it affordably.
    Irrenhaus wrote: »
    Hi
    Don't know were are you located. But Fry's has the RTi8's for $376.00 a pair. No affiliation.
    Cheers
    yes! I saw that deal the other day. I was on the fence about the RTi8's, RTi10's, and RTi12's. lots of great input, and in the end, decided on the 10's for combination of size (12's were just going to be too imposing for my space) and hopefully being a bit more filling than a set of 8's
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,221
    I was searching for one of my other posts and happened across this one. I think this might have been one of my very first posts, if not the first. Got some good laughs at myself reading this again 2.5 years later.
    I was one of those *bi-amp* dudes!

    Thanks guys, for being gentle lol
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,990
    msg wrote: »
    I was searching for one of my other posts and happened across this one. I think this might have been one of my very first posts, if not the first. Got some good laughs at myself reading this again 2.5 years later.
    I was one of those *bi-amp* dudes!

    Thanks guys, for being gentle lol

    Least you grasped things fairly quickly, any longer and we'd have to tie you up to Russ's bumper and drag ya through the field of cow pies. :p
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,793
    Truck's warmed up and ready to go, Tony.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,221
    LOL
    Waitwait! I'm learning I'm learning! I'm still learning!
    Not sure what would be worse in that scenario - tied by hands or feet. Cowpies in the face, or up the shirt? ~ neither particularly desirable.

    As has been said many times before, such a great group of guys here. I've enjoyed getting to know everyone and am tremendously grateful for all the advice and discussion, and for everyone being kind during the neurotic times when I was in a complete frenzy for gear acquisition, trying to make sense of everything to make the best informed purchases I could. (And who am I kidding, that's still going on!)

    Such a fantastic knowledge resource here. I have you all to both thank and blame for this daily obsession, sooo, middle fingers and handshakes to you all!

    And some extra middle fingers to the best of you :)
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,990
    Meet up with us one day and share a bar stool for awhile. You'll start with a handshake, you'll leave with flipping us off. lol

    ....but you may just laugh your arse off all the way home. Good people around here for sure.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,793
    And I'll start breaking all the glassware just to keep things lively.
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