To bi-amp or not to bi-amp; that is my question.

Velocitydreamer

Hello all,
I'm sure it's been addressed, but I did a search and nothing seemed to come up (I didn't dig). I'm curious about bi-amping my RT3000p's. I'm guessing it's NOT a good idea, as I'm pretty sure bi-amping the 2000's isn't wise, so I'm guessing that applies to these as well? Let me know, it's appreciated!!

Oh, and Merry Christmas!!!

Geoff4rfc

Merry Christmas!!

Yeah, IMO, no need to bi-amp

Velocitydreamer

Thanks! I wasn't sure, I guess I forgot to mention that I only have a 5.1 system at the moment, but the receiver is 7.1... wasn't sure if I should bother using the extra channel for bi-amping, or if it made any difference.

zingo

If you are just wiring a second set of outputs from your receiver, it won't make a difference.

Velocitydreamer

Yeah, only have a 5.1, and the reciever is a 7.1... I was wondering if the front's would gain any power by bi-amping (and if it's wise to bi-amp the 3000p's), but I figured not. If that's the case, why have the option on the receiver? Strange.

deronb1

zingo wrote: »

If you are just wiring a second set of outputs from your receiver, it won't make a difference.

Right, it is more like bi-wiring, who some say is better. No jumpers needed so that may be a slight improvement.

F1nut

If that's the case, why have the option on the receiver?

Marketing hype.

Good read about bi-amping, http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

ulraman77

I am using a Pioneer SC 1522K with 9.2 channels. Floorstanding speakers are RtiA7 which is capable of bi-amping. The Pioneer receiver manual says that bi-amping produces more high quality sound. Instructions state that the plates connecting the lower and upper speaker terminals should be removed. Then the front speaker wires go to the lower terminal and the front high speaker wires go to the upper terminals. I have not tried it yet because I just connected and configured the RtiA7 speakers just last night. Though, I already have wires intended for the upper/high front terminals. Just letting the regular/normal connections sink in first before I attempt the bi-amping of the floor standing speakers.
Will let you know if I feel there is any difference maybe after Christmas.
Merry Christmas!!

ulraman77

F1nut

Read the above article in post #7. You CANNOT bi-amp with an AVR, period.

gp4jesus

Below 125hz, the A7 presents a 4 ohm load to your amp/AVR.

That said, systems w/amps&AVRs challenged "in that way," their SQ may benefit from that connection method.

Velocitydreamer

I have read a little ways into the article, and skimmed the rest (finally had a moment and remembered to read, yet am at work so I don't really have much time), so at the risk of sounding naive... I so far have seen the author say "passive bi-amping " is a waste of money... I haven't so far seen anything regarding receivers. At what part does he start talking about AVR amps? Not doubting, just asking to simply save a little scratch-head time. Lastly, I JUST purchased an SC-57 9.2 with the Class D Amps, does the same rule apply that bi-amping with this receiver is pointless? I only ask because I know the amps in this receiver are a bit different than most. Thanks!

F1nut wrote: »

Read the above article in post #7. You CANNOT bi-amp with an AVR, period.

msg

Velocitydreamer wrote: »

Lastly, I JUST purchased an SC-57 9.2 with the Class D Amps, does the same rule apply that bi-amping with this receiver is pointless? I only ask because I know the amps in this receiver are a bit different than most. Thanks!

I have this question, too, with these Class D Amps, and am having a hard time accepting that this does not work, however, I tried it this past weekend with an SC-75 and didn't really notice anything that I could consider along the lines of double power delivery to the RTi10's I'm playing with.

Perhaps it's in my cables, or the fact that I'm not working with banana plugs yet for quick changes, but I just didn't see any significant improvement. Or maybe it's just the fact that it just doesn't work with an AVR

I'm new at this, so maybe I did something incorrectly. Basically:
- Removed jumpers on speaker terminals
- Connected lower terminals to Front ch on AVR
- Connected upper terminals to Front-Height ch on AVR
- Selected 7.2 + Front Bi-amping (and other bi-amping modes)

No noticeable difference in performance.

tonyb

The ice amps in Pioneer receivers traditionally hold their power better than convectional A/B power supplies found in lessor receivers when more channels are used. Still, even that has limitations and is not better than a separate amplifier which is the way to go when powering hungry speakers.

The "bi-amp" option mostly found in manuals of receivers is mostly a marketing gimmick plain and simple. However, that doesn't mean you can't try it and see if it sounds better to your ears. If you think about it however, your not gaining anything by using a shared power supply.

Velocitydreamer

Ah, I just wasn't sure if the power was actually "shared" or not w/ the Class D Elites. Ours are the D3 models, which are suposedly improved greatly upon the B&O ICEpower Digital Amps.

tonyb

All receivers regardless of amps inside share the same power supply. That's why so many notice the difference when adding separate amplification. Then what holds them back is the pre amp section, which most experience yet another boost in SQ when they add a decent preamp.

Receivers in general are a compromised all in one unit meant for convenience......not ultimate sound quality. That's not to say some can sound pretty good either but those are usually top of the line models but still hold their own limitations.

gp4jesus

ulraman77 wrote: »

Floorstanding speakers are RtiA7s - capable of bi-amping. The Pioneer receiver manual says that bi-amping produces more high quality sound.

FYI: If your AVR isn't crazy about 4 ohm loads (no 4 ohm rating), you may enjoy a cooler running AVR. Depending upon your "all-channels-driven" rating you may experience improved SQ though I doubt it.

gp4jesus

TO VelDreamer & MSG: I agree w/TonyB and others on passive bi-amping w/your AVR. It's a nice but near-worthless feature.

That series AVR's robust amplifier sections more easily drive speakers loads that w/either are lower impedance, more reactive, or both compared to a lot of AVRs especially entry level. In fact, assuming you connected everything correctly, unless you listen at and/or above "club levels," I'd be surprised if you heard ANY difference. If you did, you’d then have to ask yourself "Does it really sound better(?) or just different?"

If, like me, you use different amps* to bi-amp w/their different character (sonic signatures) to get the job done, that section of the speaker will take on that amp's character. That said, if you add a separate amp to your system and you try the above, you'll likely have a similar experience. However in my experience, regardless of which section you connect your "upgrade," the other section's SQ will seem to suffer... So keep it simple, one channel connected to one speaker and you'll be happier for it.
* A long winded side note: I use Belles for my 'A7 bottoms for their "warmer," extended low end, & higher current compared to Rotel-985 or Hafler (XL-280). Conversely, I use Rotel for the CC & LR tops along w/Hafler for surrounds because, by comparison, either are much smoother from the middle mid range up through the treble; the frequency range that the RTi A series speakers are famous, or infamous, for being accentuated.

As TonyB said driving the same speakers w/a separate amp w/its dedicated, higher capacity power supply*, still-more robust amp circuitry, & better damping, you can expect improved imaging in the form of hearing distinct "space" around the instruments or singers, front-to-back, extended more defined low end, etc, etc, etc. Parasound made 2 5 channel amps w/a transformer providing each channel w/its own winding, rectifier, & filter capacitors; a great example of why separates out perform all-in-one units.

I'll revisit using Belles*, w/their superior imaging for mids & highs for my LCR, after I repair one w/a severe DC offset issue & refresh 2 or 3 of the now ancient caps** on all the driver boards on the probability they're** to blame for the their edginess*. Then either upgrade my LCRs XO caps or remove the XOs entirely to bi-amp/tri-amp same.

Shalloam, Tony

Lan077

If biamping passive speakers could yield improvement you wouldn't see heavy weights like Dynaudio and Clearwave omitting them. Basically it comes down to most marketing departments not wanting to lose even a few sales, because they are cheap to include.