SDA-2B and Pioneer M-22 30wpc class A amp
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hauxon
Posts: 161
I've been thinking about buying a vintage Pioneer M-22 30wpc (solid state) class A amp to run my Polk SDA 2B speakers.
1. Does anyone know if the dual mono design of the amp means it does not have common ground (for the SDA connection cable) ...and if does not have common ground, would I be able to connect a wire between the negative connection of the speakers to have common ground.
2. Will the 30 watts be sufficient power for the SDA-2B speakers? If I remember correctly they are 6 ohm and sensitivity 89db. My feeling is that it will be sufficient for most music. Is there a danger I might damage the speakers by having such a small amp?
Thanks,
Hrannar
1. Does anyone know if the dual mono design of the amp means it does not have common ground (for the SDA connection cable) ...and if does not have common ground, would I be able to connect a wire between the negative connection of the speakers to have common ground.
2. Will the 30 watts be sufficient power for the SDA-2B speakers? If I remember correctly they are 6 ohm and sensitivity 89db. My feeling is that it will be sufficient for most music. Is there a danger I might damage the speakers by having such a small amp?
Thanks,
Hrannar
SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | DIY SET 300B tube amplifier | Cambridge Audio Azur 851W | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
Post edited by hauxon on
Comments
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would I be able to connect a wire between the negative connection of the speakers to have common ground.
NO, do not do that!
You'll either have to test the amp or call Pioneer to see if it is or is not common ground.
That's really not enough power for those speakers.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
yep..NO on both questions..
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30 watts of Class A wouldn't sound bad on them, I've tried it, but don't expect much in the way of dynamics."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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That is a fantastic looking amp though, and I'm sure it sounds great on the right speakers!
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NO, do not do that!
You'll either have to test the amp or call Pioneer to see if it is or is not common ground.
That's really not enough power for those speakers.30 watts of Class A wouldn't sound bad on them, I've tried it, but don't expect much in the way of dynamics.
Really? You are both wrong on how it would sound, but to the OP no on the negative strapping and yes the right 30 wpc class A amp will sound excellent unless you are trying win an SPL contest or trying to fill a very large room.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
No, I'm right. I've tried low powered amps on SDA's.....sure they make noise, but they don't make music.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
It has nothing to do with maximum SPL, especially since they should be capable of over 100db in his setup, it's about dynamics.Really? You are both wrong on how it would sound, but to the OP no on the negative strapping and yes the right 30 wpc class A amp will sound excellent unless you are trying win an SPL contest or trying to fill a very large room.
H9"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
I've been running my 1Bs on a 6-8 watt single end pentode amp for the last couple of weeks. Will it rattle the windows like my 200 watt Denon? No, but it has a certain finesse and smoothness that is very addictive. I'm getting about a 90db SPL and not pushing the amp that hard, plenty loud for me.Denon PMA-900V
Linn Axis with Grado Red
Cambridge Azur 650C
Polk SDA-1BTL -
Brock, let me rephrase my previous post as it didn't come out properly. Yes, a 30 wpc class A amp will sound good driving SDA's, but it's not going to give one all that the speakers are capable of.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Wow all the heavy hitters came out in this thread. Was glad to see it
Main Surround -
Epson 8350 Projector/ Elite Screens 120" / Pioneer Elite SC-35 / Sunfire Signature / Focal Chorus 716s / Focal Chorus CC / Polk MC80 / Polk PSW150 sub
Bedroom - Sharp Aquos 70" 650 / Pioneer SC-1222k / Polk RT-55 / Polk CS-250
Den - Rotel RSP-1068 / Threshold CAS-2 / Boston VR-M60 / BDP-05FD -
Brock, let me rephrase my previous post as it didn't come out properly. Yes, a 30 wpc class A amp will sound good driving SDA's, but it's not going to give one all that the speakers are capable of.
We can agree to disagree."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
It has nothing to do with maximum SPL, especially since they should be capable of over 100db in his setup, it's about dynamics.
Never, ever had an issue with dynamics with the Aleph, not once, not even driving LSi's. Is it right for everyone in every situation, no, but to just dismiss it completely is short sighted, IMO."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
No, I'm right. I've tried low powered amps on SDA's.....sure they make noise, but they don't make music.
BS
Single ended class A amps, specifically?
You have an opinion, not a factual certitude that you are right.
Try the right amp and your eyes will be opened.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
You know Brock, I've tried and heard a lot of amps with SDA's. Until feed heavy doses of power they never produce what they are capable of.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Gonna have to *overall* agree with Jesse and Mike on this one Brock. I've tried the Aleph 30 on my 2.3TL's and the audio was good, but I was always afraid of running out of ooomph. When I put the VK-200 in place of the Aleph 30, things improved greatly (specifically in the way of dynamics as Mike brought up). The Aleph does produce nice sounding audio, but just not enough ooomph in doing it (IMO). And, I was always afraid of running out of power, causing clipping. If I tried to push the SPL levels to 96, 97, 98 dB's, the Aleph 30 just couldn't go there with the 2.3TL's while the VK-200 will. I want to upgrade to the VK-500 eventually and see what a difference that makes on the 2.3TL's.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."![:\](https://forum.polkaudio.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
He doesn't have 2.3TL's, he has 2B's. Atleast you are talking from a perspective of owning and comparing two specific amps rather than making a blanket statement. My point is you can't summarily dismiss an entire class of amps. We do have very little info to go on, in the end based on his use, listening room, listening habits it very well could be it's not enough. For me personally, I have never felt the need for more power, ever, period.
But that's my experience and that's what I am basing my opinion on, not making a blanket statement that it will NEVER work. I am not saying it will ALWAYS work, either. Nothing more nothing less. If the OP gets very specific about his needs, habits, uses then the recommendation could change. The truth is we don't have enough information and everyone in this thread is making their own assumptions and drawing their own conclusions on outcomes.
Even you Greg aren't being specific about the environment you used the Aleph in, you are simply saying it won't/didn't work. I have a smallish listening area and can easily reach 100 dB+ if I choose to with zero strain on the amp and all the dynamics one could wish for. If I had a larger listening area and really wanted to push the 1C's, it would eventually run out of juice.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
You know Brock, I've tried and heard a lot of amps with SDA's. Until feed heavy doses of power they never produce what they are capable of.
Have you listened to the Aleph or any other Pass lower powered amp on SDA's in a reasonably sized room?
So to play devils advocate here.
You are basically saying he'd be better off with an Emotiva 300 wpc amp than something like a 20-30 watt tube amp or a high quality 30 wpc single ended class A like the Aleph? I have tried to read your posts several ways and the above conclusion is what I keep coming to. If that's your stance, fine, but it seems to go counter to everything you have ever posted.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
A little sidetrack her if we may. Brock my new audio mag has the Pass X 60 something or another. They say it 60watts class A before it goes to AB...Are those just rated at the class wattage and go to say 125wpc ab wasn't real clear there...
here is what is at Pass website
XA60.5 / Specifications
Gain 26 (db)
Power Output 60ch (8 ohm)
Power Output 120 ch (4 ohm)
Input Impedance,30 / 20(Kohms)
Leaves Class A @ 120 pk Watts
Power Consumption 200 (W)
Dimensions (W x H x D)
19 x 7 x 19.2
Unit Weight 62 (LBS)
So are these like 300wpc with mondo high current ...just trying to wrap my head around this a little... -
I agree that a benefit of high power is dynamics and staying out of clipping, but it's also bass response. My SRS 2s will do 20Hz, but not without a lot of power, and that has to be balanced with an amp that sounds good in the highs and mids because they only have single binding posts. Even if you have bi-wire posts on your SDAs, you still can't drive the "bass" separately from the mids due to the passive radiator, so your midwoofer amp would need to sound great regardless of power level. I believe there is a reason why modern self-powered subwoofers have gobs of power, and that's because R&D figured out you need high power to create good, deep bass.
Just my .02 -
Pitdog, I have the XA30.5, 30w@8ohm: 60w@4ohm approx 185w in A/B.
This is more than enough juice for my Usher MD2's which are 4ohm@90db eff., but when I tried to use the Pass on my Dyn's (4ohm@85db eff.) they ran out of gas and dynamics. Then I purchased the Modwright 200w@8ohm: 400w@4ohm match made in heaven top to bottom.
When I tested my Modwright with the Ushers little change in tonality, but the dynamics of the top and bottom end didn't change much.
Now in the same note we ran the LSiM 705's (8ohm@88db eff) on a 12watt single ended integrated at LSAF, then had a shoot out w/ the 705's using a 36watt high end integrated and the 12watt maintained better tonality and dynamics including the bottom end.
I very limited experience with SDA's so I can't comment from experience but w/the SDA 2B's being more efficient than the Usher MD2's I can't see why they wouldn't run effectively on 30watts class A.
Just my .022-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
Just what I thought, the rated output is just class A with a bunch of headroom so to speak. Until I read the article I thought they stayed in just Class A
I completely understand that the Pioneer is no PASS audio and maybe it doesn't have near the headroom and maybe is not common ground.
Thanks -
Have you listened to the Aleph or any other Pass lower powered amp on SDA's in a reasonably sized room?
I have spoken with Greg about his experiences, but I have no direct experience with your amp. However, I do have experience with the Cary 805's, which at 50wpc are the recommemnded minimum for your 1C's or my 2.3TL's. While they had detail and delicacy in spades there just wasn't enough muscle for that big, powerful sound that SDA's are capable of.
Have you tried any of the high powered Pass amps on your 1C's?So to play devils advocate here.
You are basically saying he'd be better off with an Emotiva 300 wpc amp than something like a 20-30 watt tube amp or a high quality 30 wpc single ended class A like the Aleph? I have tried to read your posts several ways and the above conclusion is what I keep coming to. If that's your stance, fine, but it seems to go counter to everything you have ever posted.
H9
You know better than that. I didn't think it was necessary, but I guess I should have said, Until feed heavy doses of quality power they never produce what they are capable of.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
[
You know better than that. I didn't think it was necessary, but I guess I should have said, Until feed heavy doses of quality power they never produce what they are capable of.[/QUOTE]
The Doctor has spoken!!JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut) -
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Let's welcome the OP to CP the proper way . . . . Welcome Hauxon!
Believe it or not, you will like OUR family of music/video enthusiasts!
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Just try it and see how it sounds. No one can tell you if it sounds good to you.Main Surround -
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Bedroom - Sharp Aquos 70" 650 / Pioneer SC-1222k / Polk RT-55 / Polk CS-250
Den - Rotel RSP-1068 / Threshold CAS-2 / Boston VR-M60 / BDP-05FD -
Thanks you guys for all the replies. I mostly listen to alternative rock and jazz. My system is also connected to a TV set (in a 60m2 livingroom). I guess that 99% of the time 30w would be sufficient. I just need to drive decide if I want class A sound quality or sacrifice that somewhat for better allround performance.SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | DIY SET 300B tube amplifier | Cambridge Audio Azur 851W | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
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I just need to drive decide if I want class A sound quality or sacrifice that somewhat for better allround performance.
I myself really like the sound of single ended class A, but if you get a higher power A/B type amp it doesn't mean a "sacrifice" in sound quality. There are plenty of stellar amps out there, far better than the Pioneer you mention, regardless of topology.
Good luck with your search
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Thanks you guys for all the replies. I mostly listen to alternative rock and jazz. My system is also connected to a TV set (in a 60m2 livingroom). I guess that 99% of the time 30w would be sufficient. I just need to drive decide if I want class A sound quality or sacrifice that somewhat for better allround performance.
Hello Hauxon,
Welcome to Club Polk! It seems you are registered in Aug 2008 (a few months earlier than me) but with only two posts in all these years? You seriously need to ask more questions.
Pioneer M-22 is a nice amp and while it may not be sufficient for your 2B, it will sounds great with some other efficient speakers.
My C-21 Preamp is without a mate for many years and if you ever decide to sell the M-22, let me know. I am interested.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
I have spoken with Greg about his experiences, but I have no direct experience with your amp. However, I do have experience with the Cary 805's, which at 50wpc are the recommemnded minimum for your 1C's or my 2.3TL's. While they had detail and delicacy in spades there just wasn't enough muscle for that big, powerful sound that SDA's are capable of.
Have you tried any of the high powered Pass amps on your 1C's?
Not Pass gear specifically but other higher powered ampsYou know better than that. I didn't think it was necessary, but I guess I should have said, Until feed heavy doses of quality power they never produce what they are capable of.
I know that Jesse, the OP who is new doesn't know your particular philosophy so that's why I said I was playing devils advocate.
We will have to agree to disagree as I just played Regina Spektor - All The Rowboats at a very high level and holy crap the walls were ratteling, my **** was tingling and the end percussion sounded like grenades going off right next to me. The last one actually scared me.
No compression or lack of dynamics at all. I can only base it on what I'm experiencing and continue to experience in my own room with my own rig. All of what you speak, especially this inflammatory gem
couldn't be farther from the truth in my case.No, I'm right. I've tried low powered amps on SDA's.....sure they make noise, but they don't make music.
H9
P.s. I'll say it again as I have always said it, I don't mean to say it will work for everyone in every situation."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
There ARE reasons that virtually all subwoofers have enormous wattage specs:I believe there is a reason why modern self-powered subwoofers have gobs of power, and that's because R&D figured out you need high power to create good, deep bass.
1. Watts are cheap (when they're based on voltage moreso than current), and
2. Subwoofer enclosures small enough to have appropriate WAF are horribly inefficient at low frequency. Paul Klipsch "got it" when he talked about the difficulty of miniaturizing a 30-hz soundwave; and therefore the size of the corner-horn. The same thing applies to other enclosure types, of course.
It makes good sense from a business point of view to make the enclosure about the size of a pack of cigarettes, and then power the thing with a gigawatt of voltage (and the minimum current, because current means copper, and copper is expensive.)
