Pioneer SC-1223-K 7.2-Channel Network A/V Receiver for $549 (50% off) today @ Amazon.

Mystery

Pioneer SC-1223-K 7.2-Channel Network A/V Receiver for $549 (50% off) today @ Amazon.
120 w x 7, 4k pass, 2 sub outs etc...

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SC-1223-K-7-2-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B00D4MQ06E

rooftop59

That is a good deal, but man, a $1000 retail receiver with no preouts? What is this world coming to?

Tekkis

i think it has preouts but only for the front and sub outputs

ken brydson

I'd still take the Costco deal on the 1222K @ $399...

Mystery

But can anyone tell me if these class D amps really deliver the watts they claim?
I mean less than 30 lbs and 120w x 7???
Come on... :rolleyes:

PolishDude

Mystery wrote: »

But can anyone tell me if these class D amps really deliver the watts they claim?
I mean less than 30 lbs and 120w x 7???
Come on... :rolleyes:

The SC-61 was rated at 125x7 and lab tests showed it put down 100x7 RMS at 0.1% distortion and 110x7 RMS at 1% distortion when all 7 channels were driven

Mystery

SC-61 is different model but same concept.
Amplifier Design Class D3
Channels 7.2
Power Output: Watts per Channel 125 x 7 (1kHz)
4 OHM Speaker Yes
Estimated Power Consumption 290 Watts

Power consumption is 290 watts and it gives out 100x7 watts RMS (total 700 watts)?
How is that possible?
Unless 290 watts is idle power consumption.

WLDock

Mystery wrote: »

But can anyone tell me if these class D amps really deliver the watts they claim?
I mean less than 30 lbs and 120w x 7??? Come on... :rolleyes:

Mystery wrote: »

SC-61 is different model but same concept.
Amplifier Design Class D3
Channels 7.2
Power Output: Watts per Channel 125 x 7 (1kHz)
4 OHM Speaker Yes
Estimated Power Consumption 290 Watts

Power consumption is 290 watts and it gives out 100x7 watts RMS (total 700 watts)?
How is that possible?
Unless 290 watts is idle power consumption.

Here are some good places learn more about amps and amp classes and why Class D amps make good power with a smaller chassis, less heat, etc.

Pioneer Electronics wrote:

Efficient, Powerful Output by Design

Class D amplifiers work in an entirely different way than A, B, or A/B amplifiers. The output transistors don’t partially open and close in a continuously variable manner; they switch on or off.

Because of this, Class D amps are often thought of as “digital” amplifiers. But even though some of the circuitry is digital, Class D amplifiers are actually purely analog in nature.

Since Class D (“switching”) amplifiers can turn fully on or off, they can dramatically increase the mid and bass output power while minimizing the loss of power, making for a highly efficient amplifier. And since it eliminates the need for huge power transformers, banks of output transistors, and huge extruded aluminum heat-sinks, Class D amplifiers are remarkably compact and lightweight for the amount of power they produce.

A good illustration of the efficiency of Class D amplification is to imagine a chip-sized module that is 3” wide, 4” deep and just 1.5” in height producing up to 250 watts at 8 ohms, all while delivering 90% of the power it receives to the loudspeakers, making this Class D technology a perfect fit for spaces with limited space like vehicles.

In the past, Class D amplifiers had limited applications because of distortion challenges. But by using state-of-the-art ICEpower® technology Pioneer created Class D car amps with precise sound free of distortion and unwanted noise.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Elite+Receivers/Class+D+Amps+and+Direct+Energy+HD+Amplifiers

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/the_amplifier_class_divide_amplifier_types_explained/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplifier

Video - Class D amps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJXb7Yf_j5w

Elite SC-61 Test Measurements
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/pioneer-elite-sc-61-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

The key things to note is that class D amps have a switching supply that is not always on. So given the high efficiency, the consumption is a lot less than class A/B or class A.

WLDock

Double Post

WLDock

Triple Post

John K.

Mystery, most of the uncertainty about power ratings(and the urge to roll eyes)should be removed if the legal requirements in this area are understood. All amplifiers sold in the U.S.(including those in receivers)are governed by FTC(Federal Trade Commission)regulations found at 16 CFR Part 432. The result is that the advertised ratings made under the specific procedure contained in the regs have to be accurate. The irony here is that this is the only area in audio with regulations which have the force of law, yet many view the numbers with suspicion, while fanciful claims for superiority in amplifiers(not involving power output), players and even pieces of connecting wire are often taken seriously.

The similar SC-61 which was tested by HT Labs, with results shown in the Sound&Vision link found above, is rated by Pioneer with two channels driven simultaneously(the basic FTC requirement)at 125 watts. The test results confirmed this with a 127.2 watt number. An all channels driven rating was explicitly rejected by the FTC as a requirement, although sellers can advertise it if the same test procedure required for two channels is followed. It should be understood that a number such as "7 X 100" means seven channels can each output at least 100 watts, but there is no requirement that the rather unrealistic scenario of all 7 channels running simultaneously at full power be the basis of the rating.

As to the power consumption number shown, there's no inconsistency with the power rating if it's realized that the consumption isn't at full power unless it's specifically stated to be that. It's nearly always an average power usage consumption number. The "average" can be defined in several ways, but a typical procedure is with one channel at full power with the others at 1/8th power. This is from a power rating standard suggested by the Electronic Industries Association and Consumer Electronics Association in EIA/CEA 490-A(which of course doesn't have the force of law which the FTC regs have). Applying that to the SC-61 and using the"typical" efficiency for class D shown in the graph in a previous reply, we get about 90% efficiency for one full power channel using about 139 watts for 125 watts output and each of the other six channels with about 75% efficiency at 1/8th power using 21.3 watts for 16 watts output. The total consumption would therefore be 139 watts + (6 X 21.3 watts) or about 267 watts, in reasonable agreement with the published 290 watt consumption.

So, Mystery, there's really no mystery here if the rating numbers are understood.

Mystery

Thanks for detail post John.
I'm partly aware of these things but it's flat out cheating to all general public who are not as tech savvy as you.
When general public looks at 120 w x 7, they don't go researching all the ratings, test scenarios, different watts at different distortion levels etc...

If something that consumes 290 watts produces 700 watts, we have a new invention of the millennium.
We will never have energy issue anymore. :rolleyes:

ArsenalFC

Hey guys - I didn't feel like this exactly warranted a new thread, because I'm basically looking for the SC-1223K or thereabouts.

I got a new receiver for christmas (replacing an aging Yamaha RX-V550). I recieved an Onkyo TX-NR717. I'm pretty sure I'd prefer to move to the Pioneer line, based on the incredible reviews they get particularly on this forum.

Like anyone else, I'm looking for a good deal. A local Elite dealer has an open box SC-61 for $599. I've been to the Costco's near me and nobody has the SC-1222k in stock. I missed the deal listed above on Amazon last month for $549 and despite trying to convince someone from Amazon today to honor that price, it didn't happen.

In short, does anyone have a good option for a new or slightly used Elite? Would anyone be willing to find a 1222K at Costco and I can pay to have it shipped? Is $599 for the SC-61 a decent deal?

I live in Wisconsin.

tonyb

Mystery wrote: »

If something that consumes 290 watts produces 700 watts, we have a new invention of the millennium.
We will never have energy issue anymore. :rolleyes:

Then maybe read up on what an amplifier does...even the built in one in AVR's. Power consumption means diddly because they store power to be able to use more for short periods of time. When you turn on your Receiver, it doesn't put out 700 watts continuously all the time, it stores most of it just like a separate amplifier does.

Why are some so infatuated with power consumption, the only relative part of that is your electric bill.