db6500 or db690 in a Grand Cherokee?

Systems

Hi,

I'm about to upgrade the stock stereo in my 2004 Grand Cherokee (NOT the Infinity system) and am considering the following:

Alpine 9813 HU along with:

either the db690s in the front doors and db650s in the rear doors

OR

db6500 component system for the front with db650s for the rear doors.

My concern with the db690s is having the tweeters down low as opposed to ear-level with the dash-mounted tweeters in the db6500 system. Should I be concerned? Also, the sales guy said that I would loose "tons of bass" with the 6500 instead of going with the db690s. They have and sell both there.

I am a recording engineer and am not a "boom and sizzle" kind of person. I much prefer a flat, unhyped system. The stock stereo is unbearable with how flabby and boomy the bottom end is.

If any of the experts here could give me some advice, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Many thanks,
-Larry

sntnsupermen131

why not get 6500 for the front, 690s for the back?
thats what i would do...
-Cody

PoweredByDodge

component in front / coaxial in back / and a 300 w 10" sub... why the sub? u said you're a reccording engineer, as such i assume u appreciate the full breadth of your music... in a car, you'll need the sub... not for boom boom, but just to flesh it all out.

Systems

Putting db690s in the rear doors instead of the db650s sounds like a great idea, but according to the "Fit Guide" on this site, 6x9s won't fit in the rear doors of a Grand Cherokee. If anyone knows this not to be true, let me know.

Regarding the sub, I'm totally open to the idea of a sub in the back, but that will most likely have to come later as I don't want to spend that much right now.

Thanks very much for the replies.

Cheers,
-Larry

Jstas

Well first off, if you are a recording engineer then you should understand that the farther away from your directional music sources in a stereo environment you are, the better your imaging will be.

Having the tweeters placed farther away allows more room between your ear and your tweeters. This allows for less of a disparity in the skewed sound stage due to the unequal distance between the left and right channels to your ears. This would not be a problem if we all sat in the center of the car but, we do not.

About the fitment of your speakers, it does not look like you have many bolt in options for speakers. Your limiting factor seems to be your mounting depth. You can install the speakers you would like but it will require some work.

Your best bet is to check out Crutchfield.com and see what thier site says about fitment options. A better option may be to get smaller speakers and mounting brackets to fit your holes. Then add the sub to fill out the bottom end. I'd call Crutchfield and talk to one of thier sales advisors. They are usually very helpful and can give you solid advice based on research they have done for your vehicle. They can also tell you what your limiting factors for speaker mounting can be.

As far as your cost issues, what is your budget? If you want a flat and even response, you will be better served by using an external amp. A great deal of power does not equate to "boom and sizzle". High power levels ensure that you will have plenty of overhead in your stereo to provide your speakers with enough power to reproduce those extreme highs and lows that you seem to dislike, clearly and accurately. They do not have to be loud but without them, your music sounds like it is being played through a sock.

I would evaluate your budget and see if you can spend some extra dollars. If I were you, I would looking into a 5 channel amp, 4 full-range channels, 1 subwoofer channel and maybe a 10 inch subwoofer or two small 8 inch subwoofers in small boxes to give you the low end kick.

Besides, as a recording engineer, you should understand and know that many recordings are mastered on multiple channels nowadays and that without a proper setup, you will not realize the full breadth of what the artist and recording engineer want you to hear in thier mastered recording. Considering the lack of acoustics in cars and thier sonically hostile environment, it is almost imperative to have a subwoofer. The relativly small size of car speakers and lack of any kind of properly tuned enclosure for those small speakers means that those smaller speakers will not have the low end extension that a subwoofer can provide.

Systems

First of all, thanks Jstas for the detailed reply.

Regarding the distance from the drivers/tweeters, in my Grand Cherokee, the driver side dash mounted tweeter is further away from my ear than the door speaker is. In addition, I feel that listening to a (non-aimable) tweeter almost 90 degrees off-axis is certainly less than desirable so it looks like the component system is the way to go for me.

I understand that a properly set-up sub will pick up where the door-mounted speakers fall off and extend the bass without hyping it. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a full-range system. By "boom and sizzle" I mean that I am not into a system that falsely hypes the extremes.

I just don't think I'll be able to financially swing a sub right now so I will probably need to do this in stages. If I can swing the power amp now, I will, so adding a sub later won't mean re-wiring the system.

Again, thanks to all for the replies. It's greatly appreciated.

-Larry

Systems

OK, this is what I've come up with at the moment. I'd love to hear if this seems like a reasonable configuration.

Alpine 9813 HU
Polk db6500 components in the front
Polkdb650s in rear doors
Alpine 10 or 12" sub in cargo area

I don't want to mount an amp on the rear of the passenger seats so the only other possible places are under the front passenger seat (12.5" x 9") and in the space for a CD changer along the side wall of the cargo area (13.75" x 10.375").

Considering the space limitations, a single multichannel amp won't fit. I'm considering buying two Cadence Q3000 2-channel amps, one to drive the db6500s and the other in bridged mono to drive the sub. I don't plan to make the db650s in the rear door a big part of my listening experience and will probably only have them on when someone is sitting back there so I figured I could run them off of the amp in the Alpine HU.

Does this seem like a reasonable approach? If so, what would be a good Alpine sub to go with the Q3000?

Again, thanks for all of the help. This message board has been a great resource for me.

-Larry

Jstas

What kind of bass are you looking for? Personally, I don't think any sub from Alpine would be well matched to your DB speakers.

The usual culprits are:

Polk Audio MM104, MM124
Polk Audio MM2084, MM2104, MM2124
IDQ 10", 12"
IDMax 12

or even a JBL GTO series sub

If you had the MOMO speakers then the Alpine subs would be a better match but the new DB speakers have a smoother sound than the Alpine stuff which can sound very manufactured when placed with speakers that may not be as powerful but are smoother and more accurate.

MacLeod

Look into a 4 channel amp. That would take up less space than dual 2 channels and you could run it the same as 2 2Xs. Alpine makes a 5 channel for $500 and its not too much bigger than a 4X. If you can fit 2 2X amps then you could fit the Alpine. But while Alpines are severly accurate and clean, they lack power and can sound a little flat when pushed. Just a suggestion.

I like Alpine subs myself but I do have to say that the Polk/Momo is a much sweeter sounding sub. All you have to do is visit your local Circuit City and have yourself a side by side comparison. Actually I would recommend scratching the DB plan and going for the Momo components at least in the front doors, you can keep the DBs in the rear since you wont hear them anyway. In my opinon, the Momo is a much better sounding speaker than the DB. Again, go to CC and check em out.

Systems

I'm looking for unhyped, tight, controlled bass. I want to feel it, but not exaggerate it.

I'd certainly be open to getting the MOMO components (MM6) as long as they will fit. According to the specs, they have a deeper mounting depth than the db6500s.

I wasn't married to getting an Alpine sub, it was just that I read favorable things about them here. I'll look into the Polks now. Do you think a 10" or 12" would be appropriate for a G. Cherokee?

Originally posted by MacLeod
Look into a 4 channel amp. That would take up less space than dual 2 channels and you could run it the same as 2 2Xs. Alpine makes a 5 channel for $500 and its not too much bigger than a 4X. If you can fit 2 2X amps then you could fit the Alpine. But while Alpines are severly accurate and clean, they lack power and can sound a little flat when pushed. Just a suggestion.

The thing is, I have room for two 2-channel amps - one under the front passenger seat and the other in the CD changer compartment, but neither of those two spaces are big enough to accomodate a 4-channel amp that has enough juice. At least I haven't found one yet.

Do the two Cadence Q3000 amps seem like a good idea in this case?

Thanks again for the replies.
-Larry

PoweredByDodge

an alpine type S wouldn't be bad... wouldn't be great either... as Jstas said, its not really suited to your application -- and the type E is just a damn joke, don't waste your money.

alpine type R 10" with like 400 - 500 rms would be peachy keen though -- cleaner sounding than the big momo 10 and cheaper... not as "slammy" but with the db's you're not looking for ear bleeding slammage so it could work out well. -- worth a look / listen at.

i'd do a momo mm2104 / 2124 or an idq 10 or 12 though personally. putting roughly 350 rms on either one.

Jstas

OK, eventhough we lost half this thread, I did find teh distro block plus another one that I forgot I had.

It's this one but only an older model.

Streetwires AGU Fused Distribution Block





The one I have is still it it's original packaging. I never opened it. The difference between mine and that one in the picture is, mine has the contacts machines from solid brass and not the chintzy plated stuff in that newer model.

It cost me like 60 bucks new but I'll sell it to you for 35 shipped to your door if you like? It'll take a 4 guage power wire with a ring terminal end on the end and the two 30 amp fuses we talked about before with two set-screw 8 guage power outlets. It's a nice piece of equipment and literally a steal considering they go for 50-75 dollars depending on where you are shopping.

Studio Dweller

I'm disappointed that we lost over 20 messages in this thread. I remember most everything that we covered though.

Jstas - thanks very much for the offer on the distribution block. I would've certainly bought it from you but I already ordered one last week as I wanted to make sure it would arrive in time for when I do the installation. As it turns out, my amps won't be here until the end of this week or early next week, but so it goes.

The db6500s, MM2124 sub, ZN3 interconnects and speaker wire have all arrived and a week ago, I picked up the Alpine 9813 HU. Just waiting on the two Cadence Q3000s.

One question regarding using the same gauge wire for power and ground. I'll be running 4-gauge to the distribution block and then 8-gauge to each of the two amps. Should my grounds from the amps be the same gauge that's feeding the distribution block (4-gauge) or the same gauge that's feeding each amp (8-gauge)?

Thanks again,
-Larry

Jstas

You can do two things.

One:
Use two 8 guage wires from each amp and ground them to the same spot. That will work just fine

Two:
Grab an unfused distribution block and run 2 8 guage grounds to the distro block and then a 4 guage ground wire to a ground point.

Either way will work the same. Option two is a cleaner install but option one is cheaper and easier to hide out of the way.

One myth I see propagated alot is that the ground wire does not need to be as large as the power wire. That is a total pile of buffalo biscuits. Ground wires should ALWAYS be the same guage as the power wire going into the amplifier.

Even if the power wire off of the battery is 4 guage, the power wire going into the amp is 8 guage so use 8 guage and ground both amps to the common ground spot.

If you use a wire too small, you can cause some nasty interference problems. Think of a 3 inch pipe going into a box with a 2 inch pipe coming out. Dump water into the 3 inch pipe and fill the box. Sooner or later, water starts backing up because the 2 inch pipe doesn't flow as much water as the 3 inch pipe. The box fills up faster than it is drained. That is an extreme example of what can happen but you get the idea.

If you use a wire that is too big, you can get ground loop problems and the amps could have thier protection circuit try tripped. Reason being is wire has impedance too and if the wire is too big, it's nominal imperdance will be too great for the amplifier's ground to over-come. It's like grounding your amp to a resistor. If the resistance is too high for the current, the power will not flow properly. The whole point of a ground is to remove the power flow from the amp and wire it to the earth or a near-earth ground, like your car's frame.

For a ground to be near-earth, it has to have a capacitance significantly higher than what the power4 source is capable of charging. A car's frame requires a large amount of power to make electrically charged especially since it is insulated. So your car is a near-earth or like-earth ground. For teh purposes of your stereo, the car is large enough that it's properties will mimic the earth in perspective to the stereo.

Studio Dweller

The SW wiring kit I ordered comes with an un-funsed distro which I could use as a ground distro so I'll have the option of doing either of your two suggestions. If I end up being able to fit the sub amp under the rear seat, it'll be close to the amp for the front speakers so I'll probably just run the two 8-gauge wires from each amp directly to a common ground point.

Thanks again for the help.
-Larry

Studio Dweller

Still waiting on the two Cadence amps. There was a shipping delay, but hopefully they will get here by week's end.

In the meantime, I mounted the MM2124 sub in the enclosure and I went ahead and ran the 4-guage and put in the distribution block without any problems.

In the engine compartment, do I need to cover the 4-guage with wireloom or is it OK as is? It's Streetwires "Ultra Flow" power cable.

Thanks,
-Larry

Jstas

It should be ok as is.

sntnsupermen131

ive never put wire loom on my wires
never had a problem
but get some zip ties and secure everything down
if that wire gets caught in the fan blade or something you might not have a working engine or speakers for long
and also to keep it off anything thatll burn through the wire's insulation
-Cody

Studio Dweller

It runs straight back from the battery and along the back wall of the engine compartment and is secured in multiple spots with cable ties.

Thanks,
-Larry

Jstas

Originally posted by Studio Dweller
It runs straight back from the battery and along the back wall of the engine compartment and is secured in multiple spots with cable ties.

Thanks,
-Larry

That should be just peachy!

That is basically how mine is run.

Studio Dweller

OK, so I'm still waiting on my amps. The last update I got was that the distributor only had one of the amps and they held the shipment until the second one came in. I was told they would ship to me either on Friday the 6th or Monday the 9th, but I haven't received a reply to my request for a status update.

Has anyone here ever ordered from usacaraudio.com aka Serious Sounds? I must say, their web site looks pretty flakey, but their prices are very low and I do recall seeing them mentioned as being legit in an older post here so I thought I would roll the dice.

Thanks,
-Larry

Jstas

Haven't heard of them before. The look of the website reminds me of the shops in downtown Philly with the east European guy behind the counter yelling out sales specials over blaring rap music.

Studio Dweller

Originally posted by Jstas
Haven't heard of them before. The look of the website reminds me of the shops in downtown Philly with the east European guy behind the counter yelling out sales specials over blaring rap music.

That description might even be a little too generous.

I did finally get an email from them today saying that the distributor received the amps and they should have them tomorrow or Friday which will put them in my hands by Tues/Wed. We shall see.

Since I've had all this time, much of my wiring is done and my sub is already broken-in. At least there will be less to do on installation day.

-Larry

MacLeod

Thats what scares me about ordering from online companies. I always swore Id never do it but Sound Domain has some smooooookin' prices on amps. A $500 Phoenix Gold 4 channel for $240 and as an authorized dealer as well! I still wont order from a dealer that isnt factory authorized tho.

Ive noticed that amps are about half price online but speakers are usually about the same as retail prices you would find in a shop. Also, most of the high end speaker makers wont even authorize their stuff for online sales. JL, Focal for instance. MB Quart does but only small stuff that nobody wants like 4" Premium sets. Curious.

Studio Dweller

It's been a while, but the system is finally in. I finally did get my amps, but it took forever. There was a severe lack of communication on the part of Serious Sounds (usacaraudio.com) - horrible in how long they take to reply to an email coupled with my local post office receiving the package, but forgetting to actually deliver it to my house! On top of that, once I got the amps, I found out the hard way that the dimensions for the Cadence Q3000 on the Cadence web site were incorrect and were off by nearly 3 inches. The 8 inch length is actually closer to 11 inches so it won't fit under my front passenger seat where one of them needs to go. Ugh! Jake from Cadence emailed me and was really nice about it, apologizing for the error on the web site. He even offered to try to work out a possible exchange, even though they didn't sell me the amps. Hwoever, I opted to get an Alpine MRV-T320 instead which seems like a better fit and is 80Wx2 where the only other Cadence amp that might work was the Q2000 at 60Wx2.

So I picked up an Alpine MRV-T320 locally to drive the fronts and it fits comfortably. I will sell the other Q3000 on ebay unless someone here is interested in it. It never got installed and is new in the box.

I was glad that I had the bulk of my wiring already finished when I started last night as I was out in the driveway until nearly 2 AM this morning. I still need to pick up speakers for the rear doors, but that'll be sometime next week.

This is what went in my '04 Grand Cherokee:

Alpine 9813 HU
Alpine MRV-T320 driving Polk db6500 fronts
Cadence Q3000 bridged driving a single Polk MM2124 sub
Streetwires ZN3 RCA interconnects
Streetwires Ultracable 12 guage speaker wire to the sub
Streetwires Ultracable 14 guage to the fronts

The Alpine amp is under the front passenger seat and the Cadence amp is mounted on a 15" round piece of plywood that fits in the center of the spare tire compartment. I ran the 4-guage down the driver side to the rear door and then across to the middle of the rear seats where the power distro block is. I pulled out the front and rear passenger seats and ran the power, ground, speaker and RCA interconnects under the carpet. The crossovers for the db6500s fit nicely behind the lower side panels down by where your feet are when sitting in the front seats.

I've got a few things to solidify with the mounting of the amps, but for the most part it's done, it works and it's noise-free!

Upon first listening, the sub sounds fantastic. Very tight and punchy. However, the db6500s are way too bright so I will try reversing the phase on the tweeters and see if that tames them.

I would very much like to thank everyone here for taking the time to post answers to the many questions I had about doing this installation. This board has been a great resource of information and it helped make the installation go without a hitch.

For anyone else doing an installation in a Grand Cherokee, I found this web site which has some really detailed Jeep specific instructions and photos on how to remove the factory components. It also covers an installation of a JL Audio based system:

http://www.wjjeeps.com/audio.htm

Again, thanks for all of the help!

Cheers,
-Larry

Jstas

That's great to hear!

Sucks doing an install in the cold though, been there, done that, destroyed a shirt! But it's so worth it and so much more satisfying when it's all done and you tell the first oogler "I installed it myself!"

Cool deal on the amp too. As far as that other Cadence amp, why not hold on to it until you get those rear speakers and use it to drive them?

Studio Dweller

My shirt made it through OK, but my fingers are a little raw from jamming them into tight spaces. I noticed a little blood on my windshield this morning.

I would love to use the other Cadence amp for the rears, but it won't fit anywhere. I originally thought I might mount it in the back cargo area on the side wall where a CD changer would go, but it's totally visible through the window and I'd like to avoid advertising my car stereo if I can. I also don't want to mount an amp on the back of the seats. I bought a retractable cover for the back which conceals the sub, but not where the amp would mount. On that Jeep site that I mentioned in my previous post, the guy mounted large amps under both rear seats, but he had to notch out a lot of the crossmember which runs below the front edge of the rear seats. That allowed the amps to slide down deep to fit under the seats. I'm just not crazy about cutting away part of something that appears to be an important support piece! The Alpine MRV-T320 is fairly compact and would most likely fit under the rear seat so maybe I'll pick up another one for the rears. My orignal idea was to run the rears off of the internal amp in the 9813 HU since I don't intend to really push them hard. However, I'm concerned about running the internal amp with only rears connected and no load present on the front channels. Could I get some sort of dummy load? Let me know if you have any thoughts on that.

Again, thanks!
-Larry

Jstas

It shouldn't be a problem running only the rears off of the head unit. Don't worry about it.

But,why not take up the dude at Cadence on his offer and get the smaller amp from Cadence in exchange for your 3000?

sntnsupermen131

glad to hear everything went well for you, as far as running your rear speakers off of your hu, i did it like that for a LONG time and had absolutely no problems with it
sounds like a really awesome system!
any pics?
as far as the tweeters, it might be a setting on the head unit or try adjusting your crossovers to -3(assuming theyre somewhat the same as the momo crossovers)
-Cody

Studio Dweller

Originally posted by Jstas
It shouldn't be a problem running only the rears off of the head unit. Don't worry about it.

But,why not take up the dude at Cadence on his offer and get the smaller amp from Cadence in exchange for your 3000?

I may very well do that. The Q2000 should fit easily under the seat. Well, as long as the dimensions for that amp are corect on the web site!

Studio Dweller

Originally posted by sntnsupermen131
glad to hear everything went well for you, as far as running your rear speakers off of your hu, i did it like that for a LONG time and had absolutely no problems with it
sounds like a really awesome system!
any pics?
as far as the tweeters, it might be a setting on the head unit or try adjusting your crossovers to -3(assuming theyre somewhat the same as the momo crossovers)
-Cody

I'd be happy to take some pics. I should be able to post some late next week.

I just tried flipping the phase on the tweeters and they're still making my ears bleed. Maybe that's where the blood on my windshield came from. Unfortunately, the db series crossovers have no level adjustments. The 5-band parametric EQ on the Alpine 9813 is limited in that the range of the high band is variable from 12K to 20K and the next band down only goes up to 5K. I wish they wouldn't have left such a gap, especially since the frequencies that I need to attenuate are in that gap.

Can anyone suggest some values for a resistor that I could put inline to pad the tweeters down by anywhere from 2 to 4 dbs?

Thanks,
-Larry