Thoughts on ribbon speaks?? VMPS RM ones & Larger Sub

GlennDog

There are 2 sales near me. Both seems to be priced high. I've never auditioned VMPS, so your thoughts are much appreciated.

http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/ele/4147052391.html

http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/ele/4221053636.html

It's my understanding that certain ribbons "go bad" after X-amount of time (like early Maggies)

I would like to check these out, but I need some advice to arm myself with prior to listening

THANKS!!

G

VR3

No help from me, they look nice though

VR3

Ah, Forgot to mention - the Larger sub is great, I have owned two and for music they are fantastic. For HT the PR bottoms out constantly.

GlennDog

Thanks VR3, is that their model # (Larger Sub??)

VR3

Correct

VMPS closed its doors earlier this year or not too long ago due to the owner passing

GlennDog

I've read about that. Also, an issue is getting parts, if needed . . . .

VR3

That is for sure. I guess the good news is all the drivers were made by eminence so if you HAD to...

tonyb

Both are great deals, but keep in mind that sub is passive. 7 bones for the speakers....pppffft, you'd be hard pressed to do better.

VR3

At $700 they would be sitting in my living room right now and I don't even want them lol

GlennDog

tonyb wrote: »

Both are great deals, but keep in mind that sub is passive. 7 bones for the speakers....pppffft, you'd be hard pressed to do better.

Really? I cannot find any past sales price info . . . Can anyone chime-in?

VR3 wrote: »

At $700 they would be sitting in my living room right now and I don't even want them lol

Dude, in post #2 you said . . . "No help from me, they look nice though"

So, I'm guessing you really don't know???

VR3

I cant be of any help on sound... and I did not even look at the price - sorry. I just was not in that mode.

These sold at a minimum at $2-3k a pair and they have several upgrades like the constant directivity waveguides on the ribbon...

$700 is a great deal

Conradicles

Great deal for both as a package deal.

GlennDog

TY for the input . . . any others?, plz chime-in

get your groove-on!

aboroth00

Ribbons for me has been love, hate the last couple years. I've had the big Infinity Kappa's, Renaissance, newer ribbons, the Selah Tanzanite. They had their ups and downsides. However if done right, ribbons sound detailed without etching sound as if it were trying to carve into your ear drums.

The speaker looks like it's using a radial ribbon to enhance dispersion on all axes. Unlike many other kinds of tweeters, ribbon tweeters must be crossed much higher typically ~4khz due to their poor power handling, and thus that's why you see the larger ribbon handling the mid range which is capable of moving more air. A 2-way design with a ribbon is very hard to pull off because you would need the woofer to come in much higher, but for a 3 way which looks like what this speaker is, shouldn't be a problem if the XO is designed competently. The other concern about ribbons is their dispersion. Ribbons are long lengthwise to enhance horizontal dispersion while limiting vertical dispersion with their thin width. As you may already know, ribbons measure terribly with standard measuring techniques in which they have significantly higher distortion than their competitor the dome tweeter. However, we typically like a little distortion psychoacoustically. The other detractor is their poorer off-axis response. If you're not in the middle of it all, it's not very impressive... The strength of this design is very extended high frequencies but without the hearing the brightness and break up of a metal dome. You can imagine it's quite revealing, but if you have a harsh or bright recording, you will probably have a harsh and bright listening experience. In a lively room, ribbons can sound bright but in a proper room with proper positioning, the sweet spot is very nice and you get that 3D soundstage from their generally good horizontal dispersion. After years of living with ribbons, I switched back to a fabric dome. Better dispersion, off axis response, ambiance without the etchy brightness, but i lost the extended highs, clear and apparent details and the sense that the speaker is very revealing. But who knows, maybe later, I'll want that classic ribbon sound. Again, it's always a trade off with this hobby of ours.

GlennDog wrote: »

TY for the input . . . any others?, plz chime-in

get your groove-on!

aboroth00

I would imagine it's a very different taste than the Polk's you currently have. A ribbon is miles apart from any Polk speaker I have heard. Again, give it a listen, you might just fall in love with the detailed violins, strings you'll hear. Let us know how they sound!

GlennDog

i give them a listen, if they're still available.
This might be a challenge, based on ^^^this^^ . . . as I really dig my SDA SRS IIs . . .

tonyb

They have the upgraded mega woofers and the waveguides.....dude, go snatch 'em. Listen to them first, then snatch them. lol

WLDock

They look like nice speakers, seem to be well worth the money. Heck, to even buy a decent raw ribbon tweeter alone would cost $150-$200 each on the low end. $700 to jump into the ribbon world seems like a deal....at least go listen if you are the fence.

I see you are in Motown....I'm from the "D" also....born and raised.

aboroth00

WLDock wrote: »

They look like nice speakers, seem to be well worth the money. Heck, to even buy a decent raw ribbon tweeter alone would cost $150-$200 each on the low end. $700 to jump into the ribbon world seems like a deal....at least go listen if you are the fence.

I see you are in Motown....I'm from the "D" also....born and raised.

I would caution anyone who is looking at entering the ribbon world to compare old ribbons such as this one to newer ribbons. Newer ribbons have significantly better distortion characteristics, power handling, polar response, vertical dispersion and off-axis response. Better ribbons command higher prices as they are more expensive to produce. However, very good Fountek ribbons can be had for ~100/each. Sure the very "high end" Raal tweeters command prices of up to 700$ but that's partially due to their smaller production capabilities located in Serbia and those do not serve for a very good point of comparison. While these tweeters don't quite match their dome tweeter counterparts in the aforementioned regards, they do give a particular "sound" which may be more pleasing (Detail, transparency, extension). I would be one of the first to tell you I like the soothing sound of the old Infinity Emit tweeters, but do they hold a candle to the capabilities of ribbons today? Of course not. Not even close.

I find it sort of odd that they added foam pieces to the radial ribbon to help control the horizontal dispersion. I couldn't find any reviewer with measurements of these speakers. However, what I found was pretty concerning if most of VMPS's speakers are made similarly. http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/gr-research/68386-vmps-626r-testing-upgrade.html

WLDock

aboroth00 wrote: »

I would caution anyone who is looking at entering the ribbon world to compare old ribbons such as this one to newer ribbons.

No caution needed...everyone here knows that the old spiral ribbon is no match to the FST/Aurum cantus ribbon used in their later speakers...let alone something like a RAAL. The point was, to find a set of later model used fullrange towers with more recent ribbon tweeters would more than likely cost much more than $700. So, it seems it might be worth it for the OP to go take a listen...he might even be able to buy them for less than asking.....

Nevertheless, the old site has some interesting words on ribbons: http://web.archive.org/web/*/www.vmpsaudio.com

VMPS Audio wrote:

If there has ever been a Holy Grail of speaker design, it is the push-pull, transformerless, high impedance, unobstructed, high output, high power handling 500Hz or lower short ribbon midrange suitable for 3 way systems. If that seems like a lot of adjectives and qualifiers, let us explain.

Ribbons were invented early in the century, no more than five years after the moving coil (dynamic) driver. A true ribbon is the simplest possible transducer: a magnetic field plus diaphragm-voicecoil-in-one. Only in recent times have ribbons lived up to their potential, however, thanks to new magnetics (Strontium 8 and Neodymium) and novel methods of etching thin "voicecoil" traces and attaching them effectively to film backing (necessary to prevent long ribbons from sustaining travelling waves which make them twist and undulate). Not that even modern manufacturing has made ribbon assembly easy. Our Neo panels must be handmade from charged magnets, pesky ferrite bars which readily pinch the operator or fly apart from the extremely strong repulsive charges. Indeed our ribbons could not be fashioned from aluminum or the metal popular for stamped speaker baskets, because any less than a steel and the panels can literally buckle from the force field. Automated production being impossible, ribbons will always be expensive and hard to make.

Since various kinds of ribbons have appeared in high-end speakers over the years the consumer best inform himself about various design options. The most popular brand of "ribbon" speakers in the past decade are not ribbons at all, but single-ended planar dynamic woofer/midranges mated to transformer-operated ribbon tweeters. Single-ended (magnets on one side, usually the back) planars have very high THD, often 30% or more. We find their sound quality poor because their waveform fidelity is so poor. Thus the importance of the aforementioned push-pull characteristic, i.e. magnets on either side with equal propulsive force in both directions. Since ribbons tend toward low impedance they have almost always appeared in tandem with transformers, which dull and distort their sound. VMPS panels measure between 3.2 and 6.0 Ohms resistive, no transformer necessary. As for output levels, sensitivity and power handling, our panels excel in all three areas, thanks to improved technology, and the magnet structure does not impede the sound output.

The VMPS Ribbon Monitors are about more than just midrange, although the low, low moving mass (about the same as the air they displace) and flat frequency response of our panels (within 1dB from 166Hz to 10kHz) make for fabulous, state-of-the art middle frequency reproduction. The RM 1 mates one ribbon panel to the latest lowmass, 8 Ohm spiral ribbon tweeter, good to 30kHz, and boasts dual 20cm solid injection-molded graphite cones pushing a 25cm slot loaded passive radiator for 32Hz (-3dB) cutoff at levels above 112dB/1m SPL. The RM 2 improves on its smaller sibling with a 30cm woven carbon fiber woofer, 30cm slot-loaded passive radiator (22Hz/ -3dB), dual midrange ribbons, and dual treble ribbons for increased power handling (250W, 115dB/1m max SPL) and vertical dispersion. The quality of sound over the full frequency spectrum is unsurpassed, a giant leap forward over dynamic competitors. Note that any moving-coil driver is burdened with at least 100 times the moving mass of our ribbons. The result: high inertia, sluggish transients, and compromised transparency and definition regardless of cone composition. It can be stated without hyperbole that even the costliest cone midranges and dome tweeters are now obsolete, rendered virtually irrelevant to audiophiles who seek the best sound per dollar spent.

One option is available for the RM 1 which will enhance its performance. Soundcoat, a borosilicate ceramic damping compound applied to the cabinet walls which cuts their spurious output by 10 dB broadband. The RM 2 Neo is equipped with the new Megawoofer, a stacked magnet (2.3kg), heavy voicecoil woven carbon fiber lowbass driver and Soundcoated as a standard. Megawoofer assures RM 2 power handling of 350W and bass cutoff down to 20Hz.

Cabinetry for both Ribbon Monitors is braced 25mm MDF with at least 7m of 25mm rounded hardwood vertical and horizontal edges in light oak, dark oak, and black finishes. Single amp or biamp operation is switchable (division at 166Hz), crossovers are gentle 6 and 12dB slopes, and all drivers are electrically in phase with each other. You may specify 4 or 8 Ohms system impedance.

Specifications

Ribbon Monitor 1 Neo
Bass: dual 20cm solid graphite cone, 25cm slot-loaded PR
Midrange: 20cm Neo ribbon with 166Hz (-3dB) cutoff
Treble: spiral ribbon tweeter, 10kHz to 30kHz -3dB
Impedance & Sensitivity: 4 Ohm (3.6min.) 89dB/1W/1m
Power handling: 200W rms into 4 Ohms, 20W min.
Frequency response: 32Hz-25kHz +0/-3dB
Dimensions & Weight: 99Hx30Wx41Dcm, 41kg

aboroth00 wrote: »

I couldn't find any reviewer with measurements of these speakers. However, what I found was pretty concerning if most of VMPS's speakers are made similarly. http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...g-upgrade.html

You know how it goes with speakers and the internet...opinions are all over the place. They don't measure with the best out there but there is some nice feedback posted. I think the list price on these was about $1400 at the time.

Measurements
http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=various.html

Feedback
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=6673.0

http://classicalcandor.blogspot.com/2009/10/vmps-rm-40-loudspeakers-loudspeaker.html?showComment=1349727994762#c2735037425134460407

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/7/74683.html

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/134795-are-there-any-vmps-owners-in-this-forum/

Forum
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=39.0


It seems VMPS was in business for awhile but made a name in 2002 when they won the 2002 CES "Best of Show" with the RM 40 model.

tonyb

Nothing wrong with older ribbons, if they took care of them that is but that goes for any speaker. Ask any vintage Maggie owner how they feel about older ribbons.

Most is differences in implementation, design. Ribbon anything is going to be rough around smoke from cigars, cigarettes, fireplaces. Big swings in humidity too. Some ribbons are more picky about environment than others. Of course ribbon tweets and panels differ, but in general the same care should be utilized.

If these speakers are taken care of, no smoking, original owners....crap man, a steal at 7 bones. Offer him 6 and see what he says. Where else you going to buy that much speaker for so little ? I would offer him 8 with the sub and see what he says.

EndersShadow

Glenn as a FYI you can also replace the woofers in the Larger with TC Sounds models (which Trey did) to get more performance out of them.

aboroth00

WLDock wrote: »

No caution needed...everyone here knows that the old spiral ribbon is no match to the FST/Aurum cantus ribbon used in their later speakers...let alone something like a RAAL. The point was, to find a set of later model used fullrange towers with more recent ribbon tweeters would more than likely cost much more than $700. So, it seems it might be worth it for the OP to go take a listen...he might even be able to buy them for less than asking.....

Nevertheless, the old site has some interesting words on ribbons: http://web.archive.org/web/*/www.vmpsaudio.com







You know how it goes with speakers and the internet...opinions are all over the place. They don't measure with the best out there but there is some nice feedback posted. I think the list price on these was about $1400 at the time.

Measurements
http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=various.html

Feedback
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=6673.0

http://classicalcandor.blogspot.com/2009/10/vmps-rm-40-loudspeakers-loudspeaker.html?showComment=1349727994762#c2735037425134460407

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/7/74683.html

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/134795-are-there-any-vmps-owners-in-this-forum/

Forum
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=39.0


It seems VMPS was in business for awhile but made a name in 2002 when they won the 2002 CES "Best of Show" with the RM 40 model.

Very useful measurement link. However after seeing those measurements, I think there is a lot of caution to be had when looking at these speakers. That huge dip in the tweeter range is pretty alarming... I was concerned that the foam tips will increase horizontal dispersion but might also cause problems elsewhere. Also the possible problem with the passive radiator should be noted as well. I had thought the slot was a port but it turns out to be a passive radiator pointed down? That would obviously cause a problem as the passive radiator would sag and probably cause the poor bass response.

As for the opinions in my link I provided, I don't believe it's an opinion when the OP posted his objective observations along with accompanying measurements. Measurements might not be the end all determination of a quality speaker, but it sure is good at weeding out the bad ones. The response curves just say it all... I'm sure a lot of people may like VMPS speakers and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But awards or user acclaim won't change how these speakers measure. When I think of VMPS because it's a newer speaker, I'm expecting accurate reproduction not old ribbon charm. I can get that from old Magnepans or Infinity's. Again I'll reiterate that older ribbons while they may sound good and you might like the sound, but for a discerning audiophile looking for accurate reproduction of their source, I wouldn't consider these speakers. Seven bones is by no means cheap. You can get quality bookshelf speakers with very nice ribbons for around that money or old school ribbons that have a very long pedigree. I have been listening to ribbons as my mains for the majority of my time in this hobby and there is much better out there that has come along recently that probably measure much better and probably sound better as well.

aboroth00

tonyb wrote: »

Nothing wrong with older ribbons, if they took care of them that is but that goes for any speaker. Ask any vintage Maggie owner how they feel about older ribbons.

Most is differences in implementation, design. Ribbon anything is going to be rough around smoke from cigars, cigarettes, fireplaces. Big swings in humidity too. Some ribbons are more picky about environment than others. Of course ribbon tweets and panels differ, but in general the same care should be utilized.

If these speakers are taken care of, no smoking, original owners....crap man, a steal at 7 bones. Offer him 6 and see what he says. Where else you going to buy that much speaker for so little ? I would offer him 8 with the sub and see what he says.

A lot has changed with ribbons over these last couple decades. Again nothing wrong with not liking them. VMPS is a newer manufacturer and should be held to different standards of measuring loudspeakers. Cancellation in the tweeter and a sagging passive radiator are two big no no's.

There are differences in a ribbons other than just implementation and design. Take for example, the old Infinity Emit tweeters which I'm quite familiar with. Trash for vertical dispersion, stand up and you lose everything. Power handling was quite poor as well and you can't cross it low by any means. Distortion is going to be much higher than a dome tweeter. Horizontal dispersion is quite limited and you won't get that very wide soundstage without a dipole. You can see the Infinity designs trying to compensate for this by incorporating line arrays, back radiating speakers, and just more tweeters to lower the distortion, increase the vertical dispersion and horizontal dispersion. These are not flaws in the design or implementation, it's the limitation of the actual tweeter. They sure sound good though, when I miss the old sweet sound, I'll whip out my pair of Infinity Kappa's. But when you compare it to a modern tweeter in regards to what the tweeters are actually capable of, you'll be very surprised. If you want a pair of ribbon towers that are relatively new, then you probably won't find anything better for the price. However, I got a pair of Selah Tanzanites which will probably blow this speaker out of the water in every regard except bass extension. Rick over at Selah makes great ribbons for not much more than what this guy is asking for a big tower. But of course you'll have to pay much more if you want a tower.

tonyb

Quality of parts goes without saying. Bottom line is he just needs to go listen instead of everyone splitting hairs.

aboroth00

tonyb wrote: »

Quality of parts goes without saying. Bottom line is he just needs to go listen instead of everyone splitting hairs.

Couldn't agree more about the listening. If you love the sound by all means buy them! No hairs being split over here. I just enjoy a passionate discussion about ribbons... It's such a shame when the potential of ribbons can't be realized... Well at least there's a lot of view points for Glenn to help him with his opinion.

SCompRacer

IIRC VMPS used weights or play dough on the passive radiators to tune them? Unsure if it was all or some models.

I'm loving the Raal ribbon tweeters but they come with a warning. Play as loud as you want but don't blow on them or vacuum them or they can be damaged.

GlennDog

I'm auditioning the RM 1s this weekend (the sub is being sold by another, one step at a time) . . . I'll post listening results

G

GlennDog

Longish story short, I spent about 2 hrs trying to audition the VPMS RM1's while the seller talked excessively and was playing the drums on the arm of the chair as I was trying to listen. He was also pounding back brewskies (at Noon-ish) and was alternating between E-cigs & Pall Malls (cig smoke being bad, something a Polkie said would be detrimental to ribbons). He doesn't want to budge on $ . . . Price was firm. He has a nice system, and a nice guy, but I'll pass. Honestly, the SRS IIs sound better. They are nice speakers and sound good, but not the sound stage or bass I was hoping for

aboroth00

GlennDog wrote: »

Longish story short, I spent about 2 hrs trying to audition the VPMS RM1's while the seller talked excessively and was playing the drums on the arm of the chair as I was trying to listen. He was also pounding back brewskies (at Noon-ish) and was alternating between E-cigs & Pall Malls (cig smoke being bad, something a Polkie said would be detrimental to ribbons). He doesn't want to budge on $ . . . Price was firm. He has a nice system, and a nice guy, but I'll pass. Honestly, the SRS IIs sound better. They are nice speakers and sound good, but not the sound stage or bass I was hoping for

MMM... what did you think of the ribbon sound?