Empirical Audio Synchro-Mesh Reclocker

pearsall001

I've been doing some reading about this unit & it seems that it's tailor made for digital audio & in particular Sonos, Squeezebox, music servers & pretty much any digital piece. From what I've read it's the real deal. Any first hand experience with Empirical Audio & in particular this piece. The reviews are very praising of it to say the least.
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/synchro-mesh

Midnite Mick

Interesting.

heiney9

It's geared more towards users of Sonos, SQB that don't use an external dac. But like the Monarchy DIP I could see this having possible benefits if using an external dac also. But if the external dac already employs a very good clock and recovery system your money ($599) is better spent else where for sure.

H9

strider

Someone here was selling some Empirical gear here within the past month. Maybe Early B? I'll see if I can find the thread.

Edit: Looks like it was Ern Dog.

tonyb

heiney9 wrote: »

It's geared more towards users of Sonos, SQB that don't use an external dac. But like the Monarchy DIP I could see this having possible benefits if using an external dac also. But if the external dac already employs a very good clock and recovery system your money ($599) is better spent else where for sure.

H9

I dunno Brock, Empirical has a solid reputation for making gear that you can easily hear differences with. I wouldn't hesitate to own anything they make.

pearsall001

I completely forgot about Monarchy Audio until Brock mentioned them in his post. I checked out their DIP Classic which looks like it will be a nice piece to try out. I'm assuming that my CAL DAC from 1995 doesn't have much in the way of jitter reduction...hell back then did we even know what the heck it was as compared to today? The Empirical Audio piece is very pricey compared to the DIP Classic which has been in production for over 15yrs I believe. For the price of admission I think I just might give the Classic a whirl & see how it pairs up with the Sonos & the CAL DAC. For the price of the Emperical piece with the upgraded PS you're well on your way to just buy a different DAC that has the latest jitter control. I really enjoy the CAL DAC with those Bugle Boy tubes & if the Classic raises it up a notch or two then it's money well spent. To be continued.

ken brydson

I read it as mesh recliner. Must be the rum, my bad...

tonyb

pearsall001 wrote: »

I completely forgot about Monarchy Audio until Brock mentioned them in his post. I checked out their DIP Classic which looks like it will be a nice piece to try out. I'm assuming that my CAL DAC from 1995 doesn't have much in the way of jitter reduction...hell back then did we even know what the heck it was as compared to today? The Empirical Audio piece is very pricey compared to the DIP Classic which has been in production for over 15yrs I believe. For the price of admission I think I just might give the Classic a whirl & see how it pairs up with the Sonos & the CAL DAC. For the price of the Emperical piece with the upgraded PS you're well on your way to just buy a different DAC that has the latest jitter control. I really enjoy the CAL DAC with those Bugle Boy tubes & if the Classic raises it up a notch or two then it's money well spent. To be continued.

I think you'd be barking up the wrong tree Phil. Hard to beat the musicality of that dac and I think the Empirical would be a great addition to the Cal dac. If you could demo one though, even better.

pearsall001

tonyb wrote: »

I think you'd be barking up the wrong tree Phil. Hard to beat the musicality of that dac and I think the Empirical would be a great addition to the Cal dac. If you could demo one though, even better.

Tony, as we both know jitter is the pesky bugger that can plague digital playback. More pronounced via a server like Sonos, Squeezebox, Olive & pretty much all others. Todays better CD players have top notch jitter control built into them as do modern DAC's. I believe my CAL DAC from 1995 is lacking in that department. But regardless of jitter or not it sounds damn good. Now if I throw one of those two units into the mix to take care of jitter I would hope the DAC even performs better. Both the Monarchy & Emperical pieces are designed for eliminating jitter as much as possible. They really don't do much else from what I can gather. They simply let the DAC or CD player perform better because jitter is out of the equation. Both units get tremendous reviews buy the Monarchy has been around a lot longer & is about $450.00 lighter on the wallet.

FTGV

Find yourself a GW Labs DSP.Older no longer produced but same SRC based as the Emperical with a very decent power supply.

FTGV

I'll add that the not inexpensive mod offered or was offered by Wyred 4 Sound for the Sonos units ,consists basically of the addition of the same type of SRC circuitry to the digital output to those units as Empirical is using in it's reclocker.They may even use the very same sample rate convertor IC as Empirical.

tonyb

Phil, your kinda making my point pal. If the Cal dac sounds damn good as is, what makes you even think you have a jitter issue to correct ? While I'm all for lower jitter per say, the amount that's audible is somewhat debatable.

To my ears anyway, distortion is more audible than smaller amounts of jitter. Maybe I just don't get why your chasing small amounts of jitter reduction, while playing back on a tubed dac with higher distortions. Just my .02 worth. Seems to me a better dac trial or placing the coin somewhere else would be more rewarding.

heiney9

Tony jitter is distortion, by definition. Nothing gained, nothing ventured. Even and Odd distortion have different characteristics and our ears hear it differently. You know you can not lump all distortion together. Some types are downright nasty others can be more pleasurable. Your statements make sense if your singular goal is to achieve the absolute lowest measured threshold of all types of distortion, but that doesn't always lead to the best sound or realistic sound.

I say go for it Phil and see what happens.

H9

strider

I was under the impression that jitter was an error caused by timing of the incoming signal, whereas the odd and even distortion we speak about, especially WRT to tube vs SS amps, is derived from the power supply.

tonyb

I know all that Brock, like you said, "it doesn't always lead to the best sound or realistic sound." That's my whole point in a nutshell.

I guess there's only one way to find out, try it.

All I can say is over the years trying to hear jitter in transports alone, between lower and higher end ones is so miniscule that I wouldn't waste my time on it. Or maybe I'm just looking at it wrong, I dunno. To these ears, line noise is more easily heard than differences in jitter.

pearsall001

tonyb wrote: »

Phil, your kinda making my point pal. If the Cal dac sounds damn good as is, what makes you even think you have a jitter issue to correct ? While I'm all for lower jitter per say, the amount that's audible is somewhat debatable.

To my ears anyway, distortion is more audible than smaller amounts of jitter. Maybe I just don't get why your chasing small amounts of jitter reduction, while playing back on a tubed dac with higher distortions. Just my .02 worth. Seems to me a better dac trial or placing the coin somewhere else would be more rewarding.

I hear ya Tony, but I'm coming at this from a different angle. I'm calling this a "tweak" pretty much like when we try different cables to up the anty on performance of something we already have in our system & like how it sounds. Now as far as the price difference between the two...the Emperical is $700.00, pretty much the price of a good used DAC & even a brand new one. I'd have to think hard on that one. Now the Monarchy coming in at $249.00 plus free shipping I can live with as a tweak to see if it improves things. For now the CAL DAC is staying putt because of how it sounds, just trying to wring a little more performance out of it. If I don't like what it does, then back it goes. Just like I've returned cables.

heiney9 wrote: »

Tony jitter is distortion, by definition. Nothing gained, nothing ventured. Even and Odd distortion have different characteristics and our ears hear it differently. You know you can not lump all distortion together. Some types are downright nasty others can be more pleasurable. Your statements make sense if your singular goal is to achieve the absolute lowest measured threshold of all types of distortion, but that doesn't always lead to the best sound or realistic sound.

I say go for it Phil and see what happens.

H9

Dead on Brock, that's the only way to play. Give it a whirl a see what happens. From what I've read they both bring a lot to the table. Time will tell.

heiney9

strider wrote: »

I was under the impression that jitter was an error caused by timing of the incoming signal, whereas the odd and even distortion we speak about, especially WRT to tube vs SS amps, is derived from the power supply.

Anything that strays from linearity IS distortion. By its very definition distortion is non-linearity within the audio signal. Therefore jitter is a form of distortion.

H9

strider

heiney9 wrote: »

Anything that strays from linearity IS distortion. By its very definition distortion is non-linearity within the audio signal. Therefore jitter is a form of distortion.

H9

Absolutely agree.

Just wondering how the reference to odd and even distortion fit into a discussion about jitter.

strider

Don't know if this quote of a post from a stranger on the internet helps, but:

" I just purchased the Synchro-Mesh from Steve at Empirical Audio and must say that it outperforms my Monarchy DIP with a much more detailed presentation. The Monarchy did increase the output voltage to my DAC's which translated in more gain which the Empirical unit does not do but the reconstructed digital stream is more accurate with the SM. I used to own a Thor Audio DC-1000 but lost it in a house fire and the Synchro-Mesh would have pushed the envelope with that DAC. Presently I have the CIA VDA-2 and outboard power supply and the SM is making this DAC sing like all get out. Very pleased with The SM. Thanks Steve."

Taken from a review thread on the manufacturer's circle at Audiocircle: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106328.0

Ern Dog

Phil,
I had the Empirical Off ramp 4 when I was using my MacBook Pro as my source and it made a significant improvement to every dac (MHDT Stockholm, Chord QuteHD, and Empirical Overdrive SE) I tried it with. I wouldn't hesitate to try the Synchro mesh if I had a Sonos or something similar. Steve Nugent's customer service is top notch. I've sent him Lots of email questions over the year and he responds back the same day. He's very helpful and responsive. I think he offers a 30-day return policy for the synchro, so there's no risk involved.
Ernie

tonyb

Ern Dog wrote: »

Phil,

I wouldn't hesitate to try the Synchro mesh if I had a Sonos or something similar. Ernie

That seems to be the jist I got after reading the 6 moons review . However he did say on the Perfect wave dac2 he couldn't discern a difference. That's a 4g dac though. For the 6 bones, the SM may be the ticket combined with cheaper dacs used with SB's or Sonos units.

This has me thinking the Nuwave dac and the SM may be a dynamite combination.

pearsall001

tonyb wrote: »

That seems to be the jist I got after reading the 6 moons review . However he did say on the Perfect wave dac2 he couldn't discern a difference. That's a 4g dac though. For the 6 bones, the SM may be the ticket combined with cheaper dacs used with SB's or Sonos units.

This has me thinking the Nuwave dac and the SM may be a dynamite combination.

Well Tony, I decided that I needed an early Christmas present so I ordered the unit from Steve at Empirical Audio. We exchanged a few email & he was very quick with his responses & answered all of my questions in detail. I didn't go for the optional PS because I want to hear the unit with it's supplied PS. I can always consider the upgraded PS at a later date if I feel the need to try it. Steve's take on jitter is that most front end players & music servers can all benefit from his piece. He does mention that some manuf. like PS Audio take jitter seriously & attack it with a vengeance & might not benefit from the SM. But he also mentioned how surprised you would be at how even the mega buck pieces are still plagued w/ unacceptable amounts of jitter. Reading between the lines Steve pretty much says that paying a premium price for a front end piece or DAC does not automatically get you the best in jitter reduction. He didn't mention any manuf. names but you get his drift. He still stands by his statement that his SM will improve the sound of almost any system. This will be interesting. Will report back shortly.

tonyb

Cool Phil, being as we are both Sonos users, I'm looking forward to your review. So shake a leg bro, patience isn't one of my virtues. lol

pearsall001

tonyb wrote: »

Cool Phil, being as we are both Sonos users, I'm looking forward to your review. So shake a leg bro, patience isn't one of my virtues. lol

Will do!

heiney9

pearsall001 wrote: »

Tony, as we both know jitter is the pesky bugger that can plague digital playback. More pronounced via a server like Sonos, Squeezebox, Olive & pretty much all others. Todays better CD players have top notch jitter control built into them as do modern DAC's. I believe my CAL DAC from 1995 is lacking in that department. But regardless of jitter or not it sounds damn good. Now if I throw one of those two units into the mix to take care of jitter I would hope the DAC even performs better. Both the Monarchy & Emperical pieces are designed for eliminating jitter as much as possible. They really don't do much else from what I can gather. They simply let the DAC or CD player perform better because jitter is out of the equation. Both units get tremendous reviews buy the Monarchy has been around a lot longer & is about $450.00 lighter on the wallet.

Well he is trying to sell audio gear so I take his comments with a grain of salt as I would any manufacturer. Too bad you can't compare the much less expensive Monarchy DIP to get a true measure whether $600 is the price point at which something is a noticeable improvement.

I used to think asynchronous USB was the gold standard, but I compared two different units one with asynch and the one without, which is the one I kept and sounded better to me in my rig. No amount of specs is going to absolutely dictate something is better than the other in every instance for every person. That's a lot of coin for what is essentially an accessory so I hope it performs up to that standard. I'm sure an older DAC like your CAL will benefit. It still urge you to try the Monarchy if you can, just to compare.

Good luck Phil, and good for you for running this product up the flag pole.

H9

pearsall001

heiney9 wrote: »

Well he is trying to audio gear so I take his comments with a grain of salt as I would any manufacturer. Too bad you can't compare the much less expensive Monarchy DIP to get a true measure whether $600 is the price point at which something is a noticeable improvement.

I used to think asynchronous USB was the gold standard, but I compared two different units one with asynch and the one without, which is the one I kept and sounded better to me in my rig. No amount of specs is going to absolutely dictate something is better than the other in every instance for every person. That's a lot of coin for what is essentially an accessory so I hope it performs up to that standard. I'm sure an older DAC like your CAL will benefit. It still urge you to try the Monarchy if you can, just to compare.

Good luck Phil, and good for you for running this product up the flag pole.

H9

I hear what you're saying Brock & I totally agree. But I'm looking at this the same way I've experimented with different cables & power cords. Heck, I've spent more than what this SM costs on cables & have been disappointed & were sent back. I'm one for trying things in my system to experience first hand if the item lives up to it's reputation or not. I am actually thinking about ordering the Monarchy Classic DIP to do a head to head comparison. They both have a 30 day return policy.

FTGV

tonyb wrote: »

Cool Phil, being as we are both Sonos users, I'm looking forward to your review. So shake a leg bro, patience isn't one of my virtues. lol

I may be wrong but don't you have the W4S modded Sonos?If so you already have basically the same type of upsample/reclocking on board.The mod to the digital output is run through a sample rate convertor IC which is precisely what the Empirical box is doing.The advantage of having it incorporated into the unit is that it eliminates the need for an extra SPDIF transmit/recieve interface.
As for sample rate convertor IC's suitability for jitter reduction that is up for debate.The detractors will say that the damage has already been done before the SRC chip does it's thing.ie.resampling data with timing errors already present.

FTGV

heiney9 wrote: »

.

I used to think asynchronous USB was the gold standard,

It is.

I compared two different units one with asynch and the one without, which is the one I kept and sounded better to me in my rig.

Thats an apples vs oranges thing since there are too many more important variables such as analog section, power supplies DAC chip etc.All other things being equal async should prove to be superior.

heiney9

FTGV wrote: »

It is.Thats an apples vs oranges thing since there are too many more important variables such as analog section, power supplies DAC chip etc.All other things being equal async should prove to be superior.

That's sort of a utopian way to look at it, IMO. Rarely is one piece designed exactly as another minus the singular variable, so it's probably impossible to compare apples to apples. That doesn't mean the next asynch piece that comes along won't sound better, maybe is it because of that singular attribute or others combined etc. My point was keep an open mind and don't automatically make decisions based on features one has over the others. Not necessarily saying asych is bad, etc. I was trying to make a general statement based on my own experience.

I see alot of people disregarding this unit over that unit based strictly on one attribute that it's supposed to have to sound good. I am sure I am guilty of it myself.

H9

heiney9

I suppose I am veering off topic a bit. My comments were meant to apply generally. I have no doubt Emperical Audio makes great gear. My own personal journey revolves around economics and great sound. Speaking strictly for me, @ $600 it'd have to make a hell of an improvement to be worth that much to me, for others $600 is pocket change. The only thing I can think of that had that kind of "eye opening" affect on me were MIT cables, and I spent more on those than I EVER thought I would for cables (a small fortune), but for me, they were that good.

Rock on

H9

FTGV

Sure Async alone does not guarantee good sonics, as I mentioned there are other IMO more important ingredients .Obviously the dac you prefered was because of other design factors. Utopian?Not really an apples to apples comparo can be done using outboard USB-SPDIF convertors driving the same DAC.In my experience an XMOS based async unit outperformed both a dated C-Media and BurrBrown non async.