Pulling my hair out! Is the LSi-C supposed sound THIS shy?

grigorianvlad

Guys, help me out! I would be pulling my hair out right now if I had any left.
I got a pair of Polk LSi-9s a few months ago. Since they are 4Ohm and relatively low sensitivity, I also got a 300W (each channel, into 4Ohm, all channels driven) power amplifier. Couldnt be happier with the LSi-9s. Amazing sound at any level.
I decided a month or two ago to replace my center channel - at the time Bic America VK-6LCR 6.5-Inch drivers speaker. This one by no means is a top drawer product. I would say it is not bad mass market center channel. I have had that one for about 2-3 years and had no complaints. It sounds good even as a side speaker if you use it with a subwoofer.
Since I am nuts about the LSi-9s, I could only imagine how good the system will sound if I will get the Polk LSi-C . This center speaker would complete the set up. After all, the LSi-9s and the LSi-C were sold together (with the Lsi-7s and the sub).
I hunt for it for a month or two (used, of course). I get it for $190 on Ebay a week ago.
I order the same speaker cables that I use with the LSi-9s to even out the sound.
Both the LSi-C and the Canare cables arrive yesterday.
My first impression with the LSi-C is disappointing. I've read it is shy speaker. So, I expected it to disappear as soon as I connected because the AVR was still calibrated for the prvious highly sensitive 8ohm speaker (as opposed to the LSi-C, which is 4Ohm and low sensitivity). So, I run recalibration of the AVR. Still The LSi-C lacks something articulation.
Let me explain.
If I increase its volume (with all other 7.1 channels decreased to -12 db), I have to crank it up pretty loud and even then highs are too shy, midrange is OK for the most part, but some instruments are simply missing from the soundtrack.
I switch from surround music (SACD) to DirectTV.
The change for the worse isnt that pronounced then. CNN sounds almost OK, but gains some boxy, nasal quality. I know that the LSi-C has smaller drivers ( 5 1/4 inch) as opposed to my old Bic America center (6.5 inch drivers). Could that be the reason? I wouldn't think so because the LSi-9s (same drivers I believe) replaced my old speakers with 10 inch woofers and the diference was night and day. The Lsi-9s were amazing, still are, they are the reason I wanted to get the LSi-C. But the upgrade turned out to be a disappointment.
So, after a sleepless night, I decided to reconnect the old Bic America back and compare it again - once I have heard what the LSi-C can (or, rather - cant - do).
The sound immediately came back to life. I can clearly hear the highs, the midrange is fine as well. They are still side by side as shown below.

What am I missing? Is the LSi-C supposed to sound like this? Boxy, extremely shy, disappearing into background? I understand the term "shy speaker". But this is almost mute. I thought my experience with the upgrade to LSi-9s was very good. Vocals came to life, instruments sounded like they are actually in the room, the imaging, soundstage, pacing - everything was changed for the better. I didnt care if the LSi-9s were slightly quieter. I have plenty of power for that. I listen to music in Stereo at -40 to -50, so there is enough of juice left over.
But this LSi-C is a disappointment. I dont think I will keep it.
Is this normal? Could it be that he LSi-C , the Polk's flagship center speaker (granted, ages ago) is an Achilles' heel in an otherwise delightful prepackaged 5.1 speaker set? Are my expectations too high?
Please let me know.
Here is my setup:

Pioneer Elite BD player
Pioneer Elite VSX-53 receiver
Emotiva XPA-3 power amp
Polk LSi-9 Front speakers on stands
Polk LSi-C center speaker ?
Technics SBT-100 surround speakers
Sunfire HRS-10 sub (1,000W)

Thanks

Phasewolf

I know it is a older speaker but let me ask you this. Is it used or was it new old stock the reason I ask is because maybe someone damaged the tweeter and that would explain why it would sound like that. My center never sounded right I got it used but the highs were just off I ordered a new tweeter and it really came to life. Just a thought.

tonyb

What is the center channel speaker level set at ? Go in your receiver's menu and make sure it's at 0. Auto calibration may have set it too low.

michael1947

Hmmm, don't give up too quickly. Like phasewolf has said check out the operation of the unit. Try using a paper cone like the inside cardboard cone from a roll of paper towel and place it up to the tweeter at modest volume, not so much that it will launch your ear drums into your head. You should be able to isolate the sound from the tweeter.
I think there are is fairly high percentage of damaged tweeters in the LSI series as people just don't get the whole "omage" process and crank as they would a "normal" 8 ohm speaker while using a garden variety AVR. The speakers will continue to work but lack their shine and eventually get sold. I purchased a pair of LSI FX which had a burned tweeter in each unit, replaced both and now they are amazing.

Also look in by removing the drivers and examine the crossover board. Even if you don't know what you are looking at focus on looking for burned spots or splits in things, cracks and leaking goo. There will be a small amount of hot glue spill-over to keep everything tight but that would be normal.

Before you give up photograph the crossovers, tweeter and drivers from the back and post here. There are many experts on this forum who can give you the exact information needed and be prepared to purchase a digital multi meter, $30.00 or less from radio shack or parts express to check resistance.

Keep us posted.

Mikey081057

I have an LSic between LSi 15's and it fits well.

I did have to tweak the the gain app 1.0 db, but don;t experience any of your concerns. The LSi C like all the other LSi's love power, and if you have a mix of 4 and 8 ohm speakers in your config with your center and surrounds running off your AVR you may not be getting the most out of the LSi C. also it works best about 1' away form the wall, and mine is about 5' oncenter away from left and right channels. Yours looks like you have it high enough, but it should be aimed at ear height. I am actually quite pleased with my setup for HT and music but it did take a while to get it optimized. You could have a problem with the speaker itself.

grigorianvlad

Yes, that could be the cause. My left LSi-9 had burned a few months back. I replaced it. But the tweeter on this LSi-C does work. I can hear it. The crossover looks fine. I have not pulled out the woofers yet, but I just touched them both while playing on high volume and they both feel like they are working.

grigorianvlad

I found the perpetrator. Here is the mugshot:

Like I mentioned before, I got the LSi-C and the new cable on the same day. The Canare always require 1-2 days break in time. I left it playing overnight, but didn't check in the morning if there was an improvement. Now I reconnected the LSi-C after some break in and sound was improved. It matches the LSi-9s now. One problem didnt go away (and I dont think it ever will) - its this boxy, nasal quality to the LSi-C. But if you compare the LSi-C and LSi-9, the enclosure quality is far superior in the LSi-9. Its is simply formidable. 1.5 inch sides, heavy as hell! Lsi-C - not so much. So, what would you expect?
Comparing the old Bic America and LSi-C after speaker cable break in left me with this impression. Bic America is loud, bright, in-your-face so to speak. I can crank it up to +20 and get tired after 10 minutes (all other channels defeated). LSi-C is different. It is understated now, not mute or even shy. I can crank it up to -7 and listen to it for about 40 minutes before I get the sense of fatigue. But the main difference is in what I hear. The crash of cymbals are suspended longer in the end. The instruments are more vivid, detailed, then dont step on each other.
Its like having to guests for dinner. One is loud, obnoxious, demands attention, grabs you by the arm, tells you at first entertaining stories until you realize in a few minutes that they are all lies. The other guest is silent until you mention that you have a problem lets say with the the car, or the IRS, or whatever. He says "I can fix that" and he somehow he does. Which guest would I love to have around?
That is what LSi-C became after cable break in.

McLoki

If I am reading this correctly, you have your LSi9's running through a separate amp and your LSiC hooked up to the center channel of your AVR. Is that correct?

If so, try to hook your center channel up to the AMP. (let one channel idle for the test) and hook your LSi9's up to the AVR and see if your sound issues move to the LSi9's.

The 9's do have a little better bass in my opinion compared to the 'C' but for center channel uses, they should be a pretty darn close match.

Michael

grigorianvlad

Thanks, Michael.
L/R/C (LSi-9/LSi-C/LSi-9) are all powered by the 3 channel power amp (300W/channel) connected to the AVR. All surround channels are connected directly to AVR (140W/channel). The sub has its own internal amp rated at 1,000W, crossed over from all speakers at 100Hz. So, everything below 100Hz goes to the Sunfire sub.

tonyb

I would lower that crossover point to anywhere from 60-80 and see how you like it. Play around alittle bit with your settings. Also may want to just try setting to large instead of small for a fuller sound.

McLoki

Have to agree on the 60-80 setting unless you have something really odd happening with your bass that is being equalized in the sub. Speaking of which, you dont have any eq settings on your center set up do you? (Audessy or something similar)

McLoki

Forgot to mention, if interested, the lsic does respond pretty well to crossover upgrades.....

grigorianvlad

Well, after cable break in I dont have any more problems with the speaker being shy. It is adjusted as follows now:

L: 0db
C: 0db
R: +1db (the right side of the room opens up into a large atrium, so it needs the +1db). Before the break in it was at +6 and still was mumbling to itself.

and all sounds fine, except for the nasal, boxy quality to the LSi-C.
I removed a woofer and discovered this:

devani

that explains it....good thing that you removed the driver....

LSiC should sound as good as LSi9 or LSi15 as that was my experience....

report back after everything is put together....

pitdogg2

Looks like it has already been repaired once. Could it have been dropped?

Mikey081057

Audessey has set all of my Lsi's to large...FWIW

Mikey081057

Just another note... Are your lsi9's setup backwards? (left is right, right is left?)

grigorianvlad

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Looks like it has already been repaired once. Could it have been dropped?

That is what I am thinking. It was shipped, but packet very neatly. It might have been dropped years ago. Then one horn fell off and glued back. Then the other one did - either before the last shipment or during.
No matter. I glued the horn back on. There were 3 small damaged areas on the enclosure which I quickly took care of with a black high gloss spray paint. They disappeared.
Here is how I look at it. Its impossible to find them new. They are at least 10 years old. The used one (on Amazon for example) are $499. About $450 + shipment on Ebay - so about the same.
I got a fixer-upper for half that - $192 + $30 shipment. I spent $12.95 on it today at a local Lowes store - Gorilla glue and black spray paint. Plus about an hour of my time, which I really enjoyed.
How does it sound? I dont know yet. It is all connected, but I will not crank it up until 24 hours have passed since I glued the horn, just to be on safe side.
Then I will know.
Thanks for your suggestions.

grigorianvlad

Mikey081057 wrote: »

Just another note... Are your lsi9's setup backwards? (left is right, right is left?)

Gosh, I've spent the entire day figuring out why did you ask me this question. Then it dawned on me. Because tweeters should be on the inside and I have them on the outside, right?

That is intentional. You see, Mikey081057, I dont have a lot of distance between the two speakers (left from right, not speakers and me). The whole system is squeezed in between a giant bookshelf and a computer workstation/media server. The clearance between speakers of my size should be about -7-8 feet. I have about 5 feet between the two. So to compensate for this shortcoming, I simply use left speaker for right and right for left. Internally they are identical. This way at least tweeters are an inch or two further apart than if the speakers were positioned correctly. Call it a poor man's speaker positioning. This is just my office HT, not a living room setup.
Of course, the speakers get the correct amp input. The speaker standing on the left is connected to the left power amplifier output and the right one is wired to the right amp post.
Its interesting that hundreds of people had seen this picture (I opened this cry for help in several online forums) and not one asked the same question! Great job.

Mikey081057

I guess it doesn't make that much difference in the practical world, but in the theoretical world of gimmickery having the tweets offset/off axis was supposed to be an audible difference but in the real world doesn't mean squat... But placement is critical ( i think you know that) with lsi's. I currently have my 9's as my rear surrrounds and have the right one on the right and left one on the left and reversing them didn't do anything that I could discern. The only reason I posed the ? was b/c I thought maybe it might affect something in your config

cheers

grigorianvlad

DSkip wrote: »

Not sure why you would need a 300 watt amp if you're not feeding any information below 100 hz. Listen to tony and play around with settings. 100 hz isn't letting those 9's or the C show what they are capable of.

Dskip and TonyB, I've tried the following crossover on my AVR:


1) 50 hz
2) 80Hz
3) 100Hz
4) 150hZ
5) No sub - speaker size set to large

Out of all above 100Hz sounds best to me. I know that I am taking away some of the shine from the LSis and sending it to the sub. But first lets not forget that LSi-9s are not LSI-15s or LSi-25s. They are extremely well built bookshelf speakers. Those 5.25' drivers arent designed for low bass and high volume.
If I play Daft Punk's "Random Access Memories", they sound Ok at -60 without the sub. If I crank them up to -20, the woofers go crazy, **** like they have been eating burritos all day long, almost to the point of clipping! I cant hear the music because of this distortion.
Even if they were LSi-25s, which have I believe has a 300W internal amp and a separate woofer, my separate subwoofer is much more capable of handling almost anything below 100Hz without any effort at all (1,000W built in amp, Bob Carver quality), while taking some of the load off of the LSi-9s, so they can concentrate on producing the midrange instead. The result is much better even than LSi-25 (and I have been told this by LSi-25 owners).
Much tighter and articular bass.
You might say that I am simply a novice who likes to shake the room and move couches with his sub. But no. The sub is set at absolute middle gain on device itself and -5 on the AVR (out of from -12 to +12). That is how Pioneer Elite self-calibration set it.
Thanks for the suggestions.

michael1947

Yup, kind of like buying a car, it's wise to pop the hood and look around even if you're not an expert. Never know what you will find.

grigorianvlad

I finally gave the fixed LSi-C hell at reference level. The nasal/boxy quality is gone. Thanks for your help, guys. You rock!

drummer86

grigorianvlad wrote: »

Dskip and TonyB, I've tried the following crossover on my AVR:


1) 50 hz
2) 80Hz
3) 100Hz
4) 150hZ
5) No sub - speaker size set to large

Out of all above 100Hz sounds best to me. I know that I am taking away some of the shine from the LSis and sending it to the sub. But first lets not forget that LSi-9s are not LSI-15s or LSi-25s. They are extremely well built bookshelf speakers. Those 5.25' drivers arent designed for low bass and high volume.
If I play Daft Punk's "Random Access Memories", they sound Ok at -60 without the sub. If I crank them up to -20, the woofers go crazy, **** like they have been eating burritos all day long, almost to the point of clipping! I cant hear the music because of this distortion.

This seems really odd to me. I've never heard the Lsi9s but my bookies are smaller, have only one 5.25" driver and sound best crossed over at 60Hz. 80Hz is still ok but anything above is bad. Not sure how your sub compares to mine but I would expect the Polks to be pretty comfortable in the 60-80 range.

Congrats on the Lsi-C fix. That's a great looking setup you have there.

grigorianvlad

This crossover setting is a matter of taste, I think.
What I have learned is that you should test with and without subwoofer and all crossover settings on the AVR and the sub itself.
Some people prefer so much bass, you could barely hear midrange or treble. Understandable. They paid good money for the sub and they want to hear it. But of course, not at the expense of other drivers and frequencies.
Others like music without any sub at all. They use the sub only for home theater.
I am kind of in between. Basically, the way I test is I set crossover at a value (lets say 100Hz), adjust AVR at reference level (0) and slowly increase subwoofer volume at the AVR until it is too pronounced. Then I go back by a decibel. Then listen to a song or two. Then I do the same with the next crossover setting.
At 100Hz and -5dB the sub doesnt just disappear into music, but it makes more realistic, not just the bass instruments - even the vocals (I know they never go down to 100Hz, but that is the impression I have). If set it to 50Hz, the music lacks something, not as lush, not as vivid.
The final test is how loud can I drive the system in these settings. At 60Hz I would say to -20. AT 100Hz - to reference and probably above. The sub takes over a lot of the load off the speakers, so there is no distortion or clipping.
The sub I have is a Sunfire HRS-10 : http://www.sunfire.com/productdetail.asp?id=16
It is a 1,000W high resolution sub.