Carver Amazings are strange

madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
edited January 2004 in 2 Channel Audio
I set up the Amazings in a small 10 X 16 room. (approximately). They sound different when you move them around. One place gives you wide soundstage, another gives you one note bass, another gives you harsh treble, another gives you no bass and others gives you a combination of the above. To get a good combination will require the proper room and placement. The determining factor in the room will be the speakers because if they are off slightly they will suck. These are even more unfriendly to set up than the SDA's. VERY UNFRIENDLY!!! There were times when I would move them 1/2 inch and go from no sound stage to full soundstage. No matter what I thought I had to do to the placement I found that doing the opposite is what was really needed. For example, when I had no soundstage I thought the speakers were too close together. Moving them apart seemed appropriate but I had to move them closer together. Another is that I thought the treble seemed harsh so I thought I needed to move them further away from me but I found that moving them closer took care of the problem. Is this because they are bi-polar? It took me a little while to overcome what I thought I needed to do and actually do stuff which didn't seem to make any sense. That is when they started to sound much better. Very interesting set of speakers!
madmax
Vinyl, the final frontier...

Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
Post edited by madmax on
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Comments

  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,665
    edited January 2004
    "Is this because they are bi-polar?"

    Yes, from what I understand it's a different ball game with these. Are your ribbons covered with heavy felt on the back side? It's suppose to help the sound and make them a little easier to set up.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


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  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited January 2004
    No, there is no felt but there are a few places where there is a little double sided sticky tape. Was the felt standard? Does it cover the whole back of the ribbon? I wonder why mine doesn't have it?

    Edit: Another thing is that a few instruments sound nice and clean but as more happens in the music it all gets very noisy. I wonder if the felt doesn't help this problem?

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • hoosier21hoosier21 Posts: 4,399
    edited January 2004
    Originally posted by madmax
    I set up the Amazings in a small 10 X 16 room. (approximately).One place gives you wide soundstage, another gives you one note bass, another gives you harsh treble, another gives you no bass and others gives you a combination of the above.

    Yep, that is what I found also.
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  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited January 2004
    Anyone else ever had these problems? Solutions? Troy, George etc... ??


    I'm going to try some felt on the back of the ribbons, play with placement some more and play with the tilt.

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,665
    edited January 2004
    Originally they put small pieces of foam in those areas where the tape is. Later on they used the felt and covered the entire back of the ribbon, top to bottom. The tilt is suppose to be 9 degrees.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • dorokusaidorokusai Posts: 25,453
    edited January 2004
    Yea, F1Nut can tell you how to do all kinds of things with the Carver's....except tell you how they sound :D
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,144
    edited January 2004
    Chuck,

    I don't have much experience with them in a big room.

    What I found is, pretty much what you describe that what you THINK you should do isn't always the case. I've found that having them close together isn't a bad thing. I've found that the correct amount of tilt on mine made a HUGE difference on the bass (have NO clue why). I thought that toeing them in more would sharpen up the image but that just isn't the case. Mine are toed in a little but not a bunch. I dunno, I just don't think there is any hard and fast rules to these speakers, what works in my room may not work in yours etc etc. It took me a couple weeks to get them dialed in but the work was worth it.

    The biggest thing that I've found is that in my room, deadening the rear wall was HUGE. I have a full length heavy curtain on the rear wall. I also think that making sure that the each are equidistant from the rear wall and equal amounts of toe in are pretty important.

    Good luck and let us know how it turns out, eh?

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited January 2004
    Originally posted by F1nut
    Originally they put small pieces of foam in those areas where the tape is. Later on they used the felt and covered the entire back of the ribbon, top to bottom. The tilt is suppose to be 9 degrees.

    Mine look like they had the small pieces of foam on them. What would that do for them? :confused:

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,665
    edited January 2004
    It was suppose to tweak the sound of the ribbons at those points. Forget the foam, install the felt.

    Yeah, Doro is half right. I can't tell you how they sound with my current gear and the demos I've had were short, but I've done a lot of research.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited January 2004
    I saw where some guy recommended you use 3 patio blocks sitting on each of the floor stands. I might try that too but I would wrap them with black felt to keep from scratching up the paint.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,665
    edited January 2004
    The guy I bought mine from mentioned the blocks, but instead used large nails driven into a concrete floor. I was thinking of using large wood screws into the hardwood floor. Let me know how the blocks work out if you try that.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited January 2004
    Sorry you're having difficulty max...

    I agree with what Troy was saying, i.e., toe-in and angle of recline, in that order, were the biggest determining factors.

    I was in a big (18 x 24) room with the speakers about 3' in front of the long wall and 6' apart (inside edge to inside edge). Imaging was very nice to say the least.

    Are yours in a ground floor room on a solid slab?
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited January 2004
    Mine are not on the ground floor. I keep reading "you wont need a sub with these" but no matter what I do the bass is not even close to my 1.2's. Sometimes I get a strong 50 hz but that is about it. To get that I end up with one note bass.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,665
    edited January 2004
    How much power are you throwing at them?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited January 2004
    Right now about 200 per channel. I can hook up the big boys but I have not done it yet. From other experiences I find that a smaller amp normally seems a little more bass heavy but who knows.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,665
    edited January 2004
    Scotty, we need more power!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,144
    edited January 2004
    C'mon madmax....

    You can do better than a couple hundred wpc !!!

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited January 2004
    I'm in the 'lower powered amps sound better' camp too.

    Not a hard and fast rule of course, but in my, albiet limited, experience.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited January 2004
    I'll get around to it. I have to dig them out of the closet I put them in when I found God, I mean tube amps...
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • shackshack Posts: 11,284
    edited January 2004
    This is a classic case study for the audio hobby...

    One person's "The best speakers I've ever heard" is another person's "No matter what I do I can't get them to sound right".

    madmax - I really hope you get the Carvers to sound good.

    It may have been in this forum where the question was asked "Why are there so many speaker manufacturers?" and this thread may hold part of the answer...everyone's situation (room, gear, etc,) is different, hears things differently, has different tastes, has different expectations, etc... etc... The Klipsch that sound good to some...hurts someone else’s ears. The Vienna Acoustics that sound full and lush to one...is boomy or too laid back to another. And so on and so on...

    This holds true for preamps, cables, TTs, CDPs, amps...

    It is truly one of the things I find fascinating about this hobby and why it is sometimes almost as much fun "bench racing" on forums like this as it is listening to the gear itself.

    And then there those panties in a wad, **** slapping, ancestor bashing, posturing, threatening, HOS threads that inevitably occur...

    NOW THATS ENTERTAINMENT!
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

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  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,665
    edited January 2004
    PRICELESS, isn't it!?!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited January 2004
    Originally posted by shack

    madmax - I really hope you get the Carvers to sound good.


    NOW THATS ENTERTAINMENT!

    Just for the record I feel the same way. I have 1.2's that I can't imagine sounding any better. So why would I buy the Amazings?? Because it is a new challenge. Who gives a **** if my 1.2's are the greatest? I want to be able to pull the best sound from all the alternatives. Otherwise, how do you know what is best? Besides that, one system may sound better for a particular recording than another. So who buys a new system for a single recording? Me??

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited January 2004
    max,
    Fellow I bought mine from had them in a large 2nd floor room over his garage... The bass sounded like ****, but a deals a deal.

    On the concrete at home it was bass bliss... For the record I was running 400 wpc Sunfire to 'em...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited January 2004
    I have one of those. I'll give it a try. I'm wondering if the wall behind the speakers makes a lot of difference.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • environmentsenvironments Posts: 1
    edited January 2004
    What you are experiencing is room cancellation. Like almost all planars, yours are Dipoles, radiating forward and backward, 180 degrees out of phase (Bipolars are radiating but both sides are in phase, a different matter subject to different problems). Music bounces, and some of this out of phase info is erasing (to a degree) the music reaching your ears. The placement determines the degree, and the room size enforces it. The larger the room, the broader the spectrum of frequencies which are effected and shallower the amount of difference cancellation that effect will be. Try putting 2 polarized sunglasses at right angles to each other....no light will come thru! The squareness of a room is Not your friend. Towing them in reduces the parallels'effect of your rooms' walls (the boundaries) and the less your music will be "messed with". Early reflections make the biggest waves, so the distance to the back walls makes a difference, too:( Add 2 small subs...(placed asymetrically in the room!) and the effect will be minimized in the midbass. The room is too small to achieve low bass....a 20 Hz signal requires 55' of wavelength to appear as music...that's a lot of bounces off the wall:)
    Sound travels @1100 feet per second, so divide the frequency into 1100 to find the wavelength...Roy Allison wrote the definitive paper on this in 1958...I once spent a weekend over a bottle or 2 talking to him at a CES convention....like a seminary student spending time with St. Paul!
    Enjoy the speakers....they will take some work, but will bring you lots of excitement....like any marriage, it may end in divorce, but it's still a new adventure:)
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited January 2004
    Welcome env's... well put, but may not exactly be on point here. The CA"s should need no sub to yield bass jollies a plenty.

    max,
    Yes, I believe the wall construction also makes a difference.

    The main wall in my HT is wood paneling, which I don't think is reflective enough for the CA's. They seem to do better in front of sheetrock so they will ultimately resides in an adjacent 2 ch room.
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited January 2004
    Originally posted by Tour2ma
    The CA"s should need no sub to yield bass jollies a plenty.


    I believe Env is correct here. I've had the amazings everywhere in that room and they just plain will not go below about 60 to 80 hz. At least the subs will pressurize the room which the open back woofers cannot. I will try them in a large room for the fun of it even though I can't leave them there. Welcome to the forum Env!
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited January 2004
    In a given listening position reflections are not going to kill all bass... some will be cancelled and some will be reinforced (does fit the "one note" comment in your original post)...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited January 2004
    I have noted that sitting the speakers out from the wall where reflections help the soundstage if you sit too close to the center of the speakers that the null in between the speakers really does cancel all the bass. Nothing is in concrete here but I know (at least I think I know) that the longest dimsnsion of the room limits the bass response because it limits the resonance of the room if it is too short. Kind of like not optimizing the port on a ported sub. This is where car audio basics has helped me out. If the longest dimension is too short the best you can hope for is to pressure the room (which is what happens if it is too short). It is easy to pressurize a room with a sealed sub but with open back speakers you can only support a resonance, not pressurize. It's all fun though. Each new obsticle in your path causes a little more learning. I'm thinking the room is more important than all the talk in the world about which components are best. (especially when it comes to a beast like these amazings...

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited January 2004
    Probably a dumb question, but are you sure all the drivers are in phase?
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
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