$18K SimAudio Moon Pre-Pro uses and off the Shelf 2009 Denon

Habanero Monk

Audioholics does it again and breaks the story that SimAudio purchased 2808 and 2809 Denon's and tweaked and repackaged and charged 17X the price.

I wonder if SimAudio is going to get any calls on this one from customers.

drumminman

Some of what one pays for is knowledge to do the mods/redesign along with whatever parts are used, but that does seem excessive.

Habanero Monk

Agreed. I always like this story about a customer being explained their repair bill:

Total charges: $68
Fuse: $0.25
Knowing where to put it: $67.75

But this isn't what SimAudio has done IMO. Plus I would have to SBT the 2809 and the SimAudio unit.

zingo

As long as their customers buy them and are happy with the products, that's all that matters.

MikeC78

As long as their customers know that it was disguised as a dated 2009 Denon, that's all that matters. However, I'm sure that's not the case... nor do the customer basis, that I'm sure consists of mulit-millionares cared either.

BTW- This isn't the ONLY high-end company to do this... Mark Levinson sells a disguised ATI amplifier and Lexicon use to sell a rebadged Oppo BD player. A few more, etc...

Runco THX LD player was basically a Panasonic LX900 http://www.techhelpfox.com/5355199/Question-For-Panasonic-Lx-900,-Msb-Ls-2,-Runco-Ljr-ii-Owne

Faroudja DVD player is basically a Toshiba 3006. http://www.avsforum.com/t/153904/faroudja-dv1000-dvd-player-need-help#post_1506076

Goldmund is repackaged Pioneer http://homepage1.nifty.com/iberia/column_audio_goldmund-e.htm

Wadia CDP is relabelled Marantz cd94mk1 http://lampizator.eu/lampizator/references/wadia%20WT%203200/WT3200.html

Habanero Monk

zingo wrote: »

As long as their customers buy them and are happy with the products, that's all that matters.

Agreed but there is a certain level of dishonesty IMO. If the customers know they are currently paying that much for a re-wrapped Denon that is one thing...

pitdogg2

Ayre or Bryston did the same thing with an Oppo, BUT completely rebuilt the innards and it had tons of bigger and better caps in it. They filled the entire inside of the hollow chassis and the then added another 5000.00 to the price. They didn't even redo the face plate.

dkg999

It's really up to the buyer to do some research. As long as these companies aren't creating gross mis-representations, then I may not be totally OK with it, however it doesn't raise to a level of concern.

Habanero Monk

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Ayre or Bryston did the same thing with an Oppo, BUT completely rebuilt the innards and it had tons of bigger and better caps in it. They filled the entire inside of the hollow chassis and the then added another 5000.00 to the price. They didn't even redo the face plate.

That is at least reputable. Not sure how joe consumer would go about doing proper due diligence. I'm sure retailers and manufacturers at SimAudio where putting this up front.

ZLTFUL

In other news, witch hunt proves to be pointless because when asked, the manufacturer readily admits that they started out with the Denons as the basis for their product.

I think more interesting than "OMG THEY ARE CHARGING $908740956872039 FOR A DENON!!!" would be the actual recording or transcript of the "30 minute phone interview".
Pretty obvious from the article that SIMAudio's VP of Sales and Marketing made absolutely no attempt to deny anything.

And since Monk has this horrible habit of shouting "OMGZ!!! THEYZE BADZ PEOPLEZ!!!!" without ever actually providing the articles, here you go folks. Make your own determination.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/simaudio-moon-cp-8-processor

Habanero Monk

ZLTFUL wrote: »

In other news, witch hunt proves to be pointless because when asked, the manufacturer readily admits that they started out with the Denons as the basis for their product.

What are they going to do? Deny it? It's a bit underhanded is all I am saying. It's like the whole Lexicon = Oppo. You would feel pretty gyped if you saved your $$ to 'do it the right way' just to find out your $3K purchase had a $500 player in a case.

At least with the SimAudio you get SOMETHING for it. What SimAudio needs to really be able to demonstrate is that there is $16K + of improvements to the unit. I would like to sit in a blind sound off vs Denons 4000 series currently available.

I didn't think there were going to be that many apologist out there (simaudio owners maybe?).

It's just an article. You can make of it what you will. I'm not taking a particular stance other than the extra $16K seems to be of incredulous value.

pitdogg2

ZLTFUL wrote: »

In other news, witch hunt proves to be pointless because when asked, the manufacturer readily admits that they started out with the Denons as the basis for their product.

I think more interesting than "OMG THEY ARE CHARGING $908740956872039 FOR A DENON!!!" would be the actual recording or transcript of the "30 minute phone interview".
Pretty obvious from the article that SIMAudio's VP of Sales and Marketing made absolutely no attempt to deny anything.

And since Monk has this horrible habit of shouting "OMGZ!!! THEYZE BADZ PEOPLEZ!!!!" without ever actually providing the articles, here you go folks. Make your own determination.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/simaudio-moon-cp-8-processor

Thanks for the article and I agree that more and more companies are using off the shelf components to cut cost and R&D. With that said I have to also see this side of things.

wrote:

Agreed, and once again, I'm no lawyer, but I do think there is legal grounds on the misuse of registered trademarks. Regardless of what's under the hood, you can't use registered trademarks to market your product unless you have permission from the rights holders.


This is the heart of the problem. It isn't that they sold a product with Audysee, but rather that they used the TM without permission.

zingo

The good news is the actual buyer of a SimAudio pre/pro is purchasing the unit based on their research and intentionally wanting to own SimAudio gear. I doubt you could find any SimAudio owner who would feel like the company tricked them.

Would you feel ripped-off that your Lincoln has a Ford designed engine in it?

nooshinjohn

zingo wrote: »

The good news is the actual buyer of a SimAudio pre/pro is purchasing the unit based on their research and intentionally wanting to own SimAudio gear. I doubt you could find any SimAudio owner who would feel like the company tricked them.

Would you feel ripped-off that your Lincoln has a Ford designed engine in it?

This actually happened back in the 1970's when Oldsmobile owners discovered Chevy engines in their Cutlasses. GM got sued BIG TIME and lost in court.

Habanero Monk

zingo wrote: »

Would you feel ripped-off that your Lincoln has a Ford designed engine in it?

That isn't as niche as something like the SimAudio Pre-Pro is. I would think a bit more researchable also. It's funny because it can work the other way around also.

Been looking at trucks and you could find a used Suzuki Equator for less then the Nissan Frontier that it is given the same mileage and package load out.

tonyb

I'd take the Nissan over a Suzuki any day....twice on Sundays.

BlueFox

ZLTFUL wrote: »

And since Monk has this horrible habit of shouting "OMGZ!!! THEYZE BADZ PEOPLEZ!!!!" without ever actually providing the articles, here you go folks. Make your own determination.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/simaudio-moon-cp-8-processor

Thanks for the link. I really hate it when people do not post links to their accusations.

That said, it almost sounds like SIMAudio is stealing, even if they did pay retail.

Thorton

This is good news. I'm putting my used Denon 3805 for $5,000 in the for sale classifieds. Any takers? Put $3000 into mods and your there.

Habanero Monk

tonyb wrote: »

I'd take the Nissan over a Suzuki any day....twice on Sundays.

The Equator is a rebadged Frontier.

unc2701

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Ayre or Bryston did the same thing with an Oppo, BUT completely rebuilt the innards and it had tons of bigger and better caps in it. They filled the entire inside of the hollow chassis and the then added another 5000.00 to the price. They didn't even redo the face plate.

It was Ayre, but I wouldn't be surprised by any high end manufacturer doing this where HDMI is involved. The cost of implementation is just too high relative to the number of units they produce, so they're far better off taking an existing product and improving chassis, power supply & analog components. In this case, the improvements probably don't justify the cost, and they could a lot more transparent about what they've done.