Speaker rolling

BlueMDPicker

I'm getting ready for some new arrivals and thought I'd do a warm-up/test of the main 2CH rig with hybrid ESLs. I've run Revel Gems with an LE-1 bass amp/crossover and Sub 15 for several years in this setup. Power is a PS Audio GCA-250. I was really curious whether this gain cell amp could drive the difficult load of the ES panels of my Innersound Isis MK3.5s. Plus I wanted to see what the possibilities might be using the LE-1, with it's FM2 crossover, to handle crossover duties and drive the transmission line bottom end of the Isis.

So far, the experiment has been a pleasing success. The hybrid ESL design is very open and revealing. Crystal clear highs evaporate into the air with no roll-off, mid-range can't quite best the Revel Gems however. My crossover options are a bit lower than Roger Sanders ideal points with this trial. The two 6" transmission line drivers produce authentic, rock solid bass. They don't even have the LE-1 breathing hard. The -15 attenuation I used to drive the 85 lb driver in the passive Sub 15 had to be dialed back to -34 for this configuration. I also hear more reflections than the front firing Gems ever produced, so I've already sent off for help to GIK.

I think the biggest surprise was how well these little Isis hybrids handle this fairly large area (24'x36' with 14' ceiling). My wife came home to the "Hell's Bells" portion of the festivities and immediately occupied the sweet spot. Meanwhile, I walked around the room listening on and off axis and found the presentation still very enjoyable. Plucked strings and percussive effects were outstanding. Bass was, perhaps, a little less clarified while wandering.

All in all, a fine day of audio adventuring. I can't wait for the Isis' big brothers to arrive!

Happy listening.

aboroth00

Very cool! I think with those electrostats being dipolar, there's a lot more energy going backward there would be more reflections. I have experimented and heard advice about treating the entire front wall to eliminate the dipolar effect which would tighten imaging at the cost of the ambiance. Electrostats are usually quite sensitive and compared to the Gem's they're probably 5-6db more sensitive so that would be why you would have to turn down the sub a little bit to match the output. However, electrostats are known to dip in its impedance making it more taxing on the amp. Sounds like a solid speaker though!

If you ever toss out your Gem's, I'd be happy to give them a new home .

BlueMDPicker

Yeah, the impedance dip had me crossing my fingers with this non-conventional amp. These Innersounds can go down to a fraction of an ohm. But, the PS Audio gain cell amp did a whole day of play (some of it at ear bleeding levels) without issue. I was honestly surprised.

When the Eros get here, these will go back upstairs with the Carver Research Lightstar gear. The Gems are heading to HT duty eventually. Right now, they are standing in a corner of my office. I think they're PO'ed at me.

aboroth00

Haha! Yeah, speakers don't like the neglect :P. I can't imagine how good an Ultima Voice must sound... You don't happen to be located in Socal are you? I'd love the opportunity to listen to those gem's. I've been dreaming of them for a while now. I finally got the funds and I'm waiting for a pair to pop into the used market for a good price.

SCompRacer

Beautiful listening space Mike! You have me wanting to keep them now...lol

Yeah, mid dynamics are softer with the ESL, but you’ll gain some with the Eros larger panel size and the bigger woofer won’t hurt any either. The fact that they are narrow dispersion and beamed at you in the sweet spot tends to negate late arriving reflections. Now I have treated my rear wave in two ways, panels vertical and panels horizontal. Horizontal allows for that ambience with folks not in the sweet spot at our music meets. Normally you just have to treat for slap echo and bass and you are golden with these. Roger will set them up diagonal across a room corner at shows.





EDIT: Oh, in regards to impedance they go from 2-120 with the 2 at the higher frequency end. The capacitive load an ESL panel presents will mess with some amps. High capacitive cables compounds the issue. Rogers InnerSound an Sanders ESL amps were designed to work well with the panels.

BlueMDPicker

No, I'm SW FL. If I could only have one set of the speakers I currently own, it would be the Gems. I'm looking for a Ultima Gem center. They pop up rarely.

aboroth00

BlueMDPicker wrote: »

No, I'm SW FL. If I could only have one set of the speakers I currently own, it would be the Gems. I'm looking for a Ultima Gem center. They pop up rarely.

Shame! Weather in Socal is spectacular right now :P. Now you're just cruelly making me want a pair for myself even more :P.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Revel-Ultima-Voice-Center-Speaker-/301008752174?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item4615850e2e

These are actually local to me and seems like a great price. Unfortunately no trim pieces which might be a deal breaker.

F1nut

BlueMDPicker wrote: »

If I could only have one set of the speakers I currently own, it would be the Gems.

Those with the sub are simply amazing!

BlueMDPicker

aboroth00 wrote: »

Shame! Weather in Socal is spectacular right now :P. Now you're just cruelly making me want a pair for myself even more :P.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Revel-Ultima-Voice-Center-Speaker-/301008752174?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item4615850e2e


These are actually local to me and seems like a great price. Unfortunately no trim pieces which might be a deal breaker.

Thanks for the link! Yeah, without the side panels, you can't install the driver baffle for protection. Also, missing the binding post straps for single wire speaker cables.

I was just in LA the first part of October. The weather was most excellent except for the taste of the Santa Anna winds near the end of the trip. My oldest lives north of LA and loves it.

BlueMDPicker

The Gems are out of their corner exile and performing beautifully in the HT rig.

aboroth00

BlueMDPicker wrote: »

The Gems are out of their corner exile and performing beautifully in the HT rig.

Very nice! How do they compare with HT vs other speaks?

BlueMDPicker

aboroth00 wrote: »

Very nice! How do they compare with HT vs other speaks?

Thanks for the kind words. I have not had a chance to really sit down with them. However, my 13 year old son was mesmerized by them and spent his rainy Saturday watching all the Pirates movies. I hope to have some time tomorrow to run through the AVR setup and starting tweaking.

aboroth00

BlueMDPicker wrote: »

Thanks for the kind words. I have not had a chance to really sit down with them. However, my 13 year old son was mesmerized by them and spent his rainy Saturday watching all the Pirates movies. I hope to have some time tomorrow to run through the AVR setup and starting tweaking.

Don't you envy him a little? He gets to enjoy all awesome sound without having to put in the effort or worry about getting it perfectly right ! I keep hearing great things about the speakers with music and i'm sure they're killers at HT as well. Just curious how they would handle transients and movie dynamics.

SCompRacer

BlueMDPicker wrote: »

The Gems are out of their corner exile and performing beautifully in the HT rig.

Awesome! So all is forgiven...?

BlueMDPicker

SCompRacer wrote: »

Awesome! So all is forgiven...?

Lol! Well the Gems seem happy in their new role. But, they pushed these guys (Walnut RTA-8T) out of HT duty and toward apparent storage. I was about to box them when I saw an opportunity to sneak them into service in the breakfast nook. I placed them either side of the rattan server and said nothing about them. They stood in place there for two days, not a word was said about them??! Hmmm...I drug out a little Teac chip amp and a phono to mini RCA adapter. Sunday morning, I fired up the iPad on them while everyone was doing their daily chores. I got "You're speaker crazy", guilty, and "You're addicted to audio gear", convicted, throw away the key. Funny thing: wife starts humming along with the musical selection. Next thing I know, my youngest daughter has fired up some Green Day. Yep, it's all me, I'm the crazy one.

SCompRacer

LOL I guess there is always room for speakers. Looks like they were made to go there. Very nice!

BlueMDPicker

Rich, the only push-back I ever had on speakers were the SDA SRS--until she heard them, then I couldn't get her out of the sweet spot. I'm blessed!

Mikey081057

BlueMDPicker wrote: »

I'm getting ready for some new arrivals and thought I'd do a warm-up/test of the main 2CH rig with hybrid ESLs. I've run Revel Gems with an LE-1 bass amp/crossover and Sub 15 for several years in this setup. Power is a PS Audio GCA-250. I was really curious whether this gain cell amp could drive the difficult load of the ES panels of my Innersound Isis MK3.5s. Plus I wanted to see what the possibilities might be using the LE-1, with it's FM2 crossover, to handle crossover duties and drive the transmission line bottom end of the Isis.

So far, the experiment has been a pleasing success. The hybrid ESL design is very open and revealing. Crystal clear highs evaporate into the air with no roll-off, mid-range can't quite best the Revel Gems however. My crossover options are a bit lower than Roger Sanders ideal points with this trial. The two 6" transmission line drivers produce authentic, rock solid bass. They don't even have the LE-1 breathing hard. The -15 attenuation I used to drive the 85 lb driver in the passive Sub 15 had to be dialed back to -34 for this configuration. I also hear more reflections than the front firing Gems ever produced, so I've already sent off for help to GIK.

I think the biggest surprise was how well these little Isis hybrids handle this fairly large area (24'x36' with 14' ceiling). My wife came home to the "Hell's Bells" portion of the festivities and immediately occupied the sweet spot. Meanwhile, I walked around the room listening on and off axis and found the presentation still very enjoyable. Plucked strings and percussive effects were outstanding. Bass was, perhaps, a little less clarified while wandering.

All in all, a fine day of audio adventuring. I can't wait for the Isis' big brothers to arrive!

Happy listening.

And what is that guitar on your couch bro?

I gotsta know i see a Fender?

BlueMDPicker

Mikey081057 wrote: »

And what is that guitar on your couch bro?

I gotsta know i see a Fender?

Custom Shop '56 Strat reissue. It's my favorite daily player right now. IIRC that one has PUP coils hand wound by the same lady, during the last year she worked for Fender, who wound the original '56 Strat PUPs.

BlueMDPicker

Changes! The Eros have arrived.

Putting a larger, granite top on equipment credenza.

None of the gear is located finally. Waiting on a floor stand for the amps.

SCompRacer

Your pics are linked....

Nice Mike! Love that chunk of granite! Can't wait to see your amp stand and TT in that mix. Did your Marchand for the Isis have a high pass adj or just low and mid bass?

BlueMDPicker

SCompRacer wrote: »

Your pics are linked....

How did I mess that up?! Thanks.

SCompRacer wrote: »

Nice Mike! Love that chunk of granite! Can't wait to see your amp stand and TT in that mix. Did your Marchand for the Isis have a high pass adj or just low and mid bass?

Thanks, Rich. IIRC my Marchand just does "boost" from 3 to 12 dB over the range of the internal card for the ESL panels and gain for the bass. Hope that makes sense.

Lol! We swapped gear in our sigs at almost the same moment in time.

SCompRacer

BlueMDPicker wrote: »

How did I mess that up?! Thanks.

Forum controls not like before.....

Thanks, Rich. IIRC my Marchand just does "boost" from 3 to 12 dB over the range of the internal card for the ESL panels and gain for the bass. Hope that makes sense.

The Marchand I had before the InnerSound MK II remote control active bass amp had low, mid and high control; the mids and highs controlling panel amp. Can't say I missed the high adjustment with the MK II active bass amp. That remote is great for dialing in at the sweet spot! You can also program your other remotes into it.

How you like the Sanders amp? It really worked great with the ESL's, but 50/50 on regular speakers.

Lol! We swapped gear in our sigs at almost the same moment in time.

lol Great minds.... Yeah, seeing them in your pic, they ain't mine anymore. I miss them. I knew them frontwards and backwards, the best setups. Still learning about the new ones and I hate school...lol

BlueMDPicker

SCompRacer wrote: »

The Marchand I had before the InnerSound MK II remote control active bass amp had low, mid and high control; the mids and highs controlling panel amp. Can't say I missed the high adjustment with the MK II active bass amp. That remote is great for dialing in at the sweet spot! You can also program your other remotes into it.

I think my Marchand is a lesser animal than yours. It has two controls per channel (as I described earlier) and a "Sum" switch. Most of what I call crossover control is done by three, interchangeable boards internally.

SCompRacer wrote: »

How you like the Sanders amp? It really worked great with the ESL's, but 50/50 on regular speakers.

It's a bit different sonic flavor (can't describe it with singularity yet) than the PSA GCA 250, which I listened to the majority of the last 6 years. Since I essentially have an entire new system, like you, I'm back in school. I'm enjoying the adventure. I listened to Magnapans for a couple of decades, then had to re-think everything when I went back to box speakers. Seems I've come full circle. Can't wait to get the TT back in the mix, probably early next week.

Both amps are the coolest running I believe I've ever seen. Pretty amazing.

BlueMDPicker

Got everything dialed in with the new Eros and amps. Would like to run some room EQ eventually. So, my speaker rolling ends (for this room anyway) for awhile.

These speakers could definitely turn you into a couch potato. They're engaging to the point I found it hard to shut things down this morning to setup the new amp rack. Vinyl is PFM squared and I plan to roll some different phono preamps through the mix in the near future.

Thanks go out to Rich--ScompRacer--for parting with this great gear and for his mad, bullet proof packing/shipping skills. Yeah, well. The Dude abides.

SCompRacer

Highest marks Mike! lol One of my fav movies. You are most welcome.

They sure draw you in. What phono pre were you thinking of? I've got one to build, maybe this winter. Once I get an enclosure for a second DAC I built, you can try it and see if your digital enjoyment goes up.

Where did you get that amp stand? Looks good. The one I have is assembled from parts Lowe's once offered. You could build any size rack imaginable.

I don't need a double wide anymore so I brought my Salamander Archetype up from the basement. You've settled in faster than I have...lol

BlueMDPicker

SCompRacer wrote: »

What phono pre were you thinking of? I've got one to build, maybe this winter. Once I get an enclosure for a second DAC I built, you can try it and see if your digital enjoyment goes up.

I have the Bottlehead Seduction, an unmodified PAS-3A, and an ancient Stax preamp (SS) for headphones with a wonderful phono stage. What phono stage will you build?

I'd be delighted to audition your DAC. It's a masterpiece.

SCompRacer wrote: »

Where did you get that amp stand? Looks good. The one I have is assembled from parts Lowe's once offered. You could build any size rack imaginable.

It's just a Sanus Euro something or other. But, thanks, it looks great with the Sanders/Innersound amps and works wonderfully.

SCompRacer wrote: »

I don't need a double wide anymore so I brought my Salamander Archetype up from the basement. You've settled in faster than I have...lol

My equipment cabinet is an el cheapo that I took the backing out of. The granite slab really gives me the top room I always wanted and makes it more sonically inert. I took the final pic with the doors all open to show all the PS Audio components hiding out in there.

SCompRacer

The second DAC I built is way simpler. It's a single versus dual mono and will just have USB and S/PDIF inputs. It does have the same discrete balanced output which some folks prefer over the SE op amp output. It does have LED display and remote control. All DAC settings are available.

This is another diy'ers finished Paradise. Dual mono design. I just have the two phono boards, sinks and clips.



Sanus still has some nice reasonably priced racks. VTI has really gone up. I'm thinking with some tubes to cover the exposed threads, the Salamander rack will gain a couple points in appearance. That slab of granite really makes a splash of class!

This is the amp stand I made from a build your own from Lowe's. I went back to make another rack and it was all gone. I guess they didn't have enough interest in them. You could build a single or double wide to the height you wanted. Different wood shelf finishes, silver or black poles.



The Coda/Sanders A/B changed my mind about an amp having to get hot to sound good. Extremely low in distortion which some folks don't care for.

BlueMDPicker

That's a great looking amp stand you built from Lowe's! They could probably sell a ton of them if they kept material stocked.

The Sanus is presentable and fits the bill for application. Don't know why all my pics taken with iPhone/iPad are lacking in definition? They used to take remarkable pics.

Just stuck the Bottlehead in the mix (there goes my counter top space!) It sounds glorious! Slightly less gain than the PS Audio but tighter bass on jazz stuff so far. I've got a ton of tubes I can roll through it. I think it has Amperex 7309's in it now (have to remove the shields and take a peek).

FTGV

Nice set up B.
Rich,u didid up anudder Buf 3?

SCompRacer

FTGV wrote: »

Nice set up B.
Rich,u didid up anudder Buf 3?

Yup...a single. I2C control, remote, Legato I/V, just balanced out for now. I have a hi-res/DSD capable USB module for it too (another Amanero). It is/was the start of one for somebody.