Project Debut III - suggestions for upgrades

EndersShadow

So I am the proud owner of Travis's Project Debut III turntable.

Right now it will be in my office connected to my 2 channel rig. So its going to be connected to the Citation 11 so I can use the EQ on it.

I am wanting to look at slowly upgrading this TT as I have very little invested in it right now. I am not HUGE into LP's but I do enjoy the ones I have so I am thinking for a small investment I can get a pretty big bang for my buck.

I found this thread where the OP was planning on doing the following upgrades:

Ortonfon 2M Blue - Cost $225
[URL=" http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject-75g-Counterweight-for-Debut-Xpression"]Pro-Ject 75g Counterweight[/URL] - Cost $20
Spin Clean Record Washer - Cost $125
Pro-Ject Acry-It Platter - Cost $129

I am wondering if there are some other cheaper options for cartridge on this TT (Travis I totally blanked what cartridge you recommended I use). I am not wanting to go balls to the walls on it, but I also have read the cartridge on it could use a upgrade. I am also not sure how big a deal upgrading the platter is on it.

In addition I will eventually be moving this TT downstairs (since its PURDY) and will need a phono pre. I am curious as if anyone has physically used the new Hagerman Bugle2 as it was one option I was considering. Another was the original Bugle since its battery powered and I am almost at max capacity on my APC H15.

I am aware I could just use a Signal Cable MagicStrip, but again not money I really want to put into it right now.

So any thoughts and suggestions on the best way to upgrade this TT on a budget would be appreciated.

trav0810

A few people I spoke to recommended the Ortofon 3M Red. It is reputed to be a good match for this table. I had that cart on a Thorens TD145 and found t to be an exceptional cart for the money ($99 shipped).

strider

Assuming you have some type of cleaning method in place now, I'd start with the platter upgrade. Getting rid of the resonant metal platter for the acrylic upgraded version made a huge difference when I had my Debut.

The counterweight isn't an upgrade, per se, you may need to change the counterweight based on the tracking force required for a given cartridge. Wait on that 'til you figure out what you'll upgrade the cartridge to.

EndersShadow

trav0810 wrote: »

A few people I spoke to recommended the Ortofon 3M Red. It is reputed to be a good match for this table. I had that cart on a Thorens TD145 and found t to be an exceptional cart for the money ($99 shipped).

Gotcha, that was what I thought you said, I ran across it while looking at the blue (much more expensive) which is more than I want to spend at least right now.

strider wrote: »

Assuming you have some type of cleaning method in place now, I'd start with the platter upgrade. Getting rid of the resonant metal platter for the acrylic upgraded version made a huge difference when I had my Debut..

Good to know

strider wrote: »

The counterweight isn't an upgrade, per se, you may need to change the counterweight based on the tracking force required for a given cartridge. Wait on that 'til you figure out what you'll upgrade the cartridge to.

Yeah, I figured it probably had to do with the weight of the cartridge and all that jazz..

I shot a email to NeedleDoctor since they are supposed to know their stuff and this is what I got back:

Hey, Dan. The Debut III is a great turntable. There's some great upgrades for it, too. Here's a few of my favorites: Ortofon 20 stylus, Acrylic Platter, Speed Box. The SpeedBox is an awesome upgrade, probably my favorite. It tightens up the speed stability, and really makes the turntable sound great.

Cleaning wise, keeping a carbon fiber brush next to the player is nice for a swipe before each side. For a more complete cleaning, the Spin Clean is amazing. Stylus cleaner is also nice to have on hand.

Any thoughts on why he suggested just a new stylus and not a new cart? I know it would be easier to ensure I dont need an additional counterweight, but I dont know which would be better? The stylus costs quite a bit more than just a brand new cartridge.

Also this will make me sound dumb and I am LP dumb... but why do I care about easily switching between 33 and 45? I just have the standard larger records so I thought that I set it at 45 and was done? I.E. do I even need the speedbox?

TNHNDYMAN

OK- Larger records are on 33 speed. The small ones take 45.

I'd have to check out that stylus first, but it might be a drop in replacement for the cart you already have. Personally I'd go with the 2M red and be done for now.

Spin Clean would be a great asset to have for your older and newly acquired used records- it'll work great on new one's as well.

hochpt21

TNHNDYMAN wrote: »

OK- Larger records are on 33 speed. The small ones take 45.

That's why they're all singing so fast. JK, Dan.

I would say a vacuum RCM is the most important upgrade depending on how deep you get into it. Maybe hold off for now, but if you get a decent collection of records, a proper clean will give you the largest boost in SQ, IMO. And the more records you get the better value the machine is.

strider

EndersShadow wrote: »

Any thoughts on why he suggested just a new stylus and not a new cart? I know it would be easier to ensure I dont need an additional counterweight, but I dont know which would be better? The stylus costs quite a bit more than just a brand new cartridge.

On the Super OM series Ortofon you can upgrade the stylus a couple notches while keeping the body. It's a bit easier to switch out the stylus assembly vs. the whole cartridge. I saw the OM 20 cartridge for $199.95 and the stylus for $189.95, odd that they're that close in price.

Another option on the record cleaning is a KAB EV-1 record cleaning machine. Super basic, but also very effective. Get it, a couple of MoFi brushes, some cleaning solution for about $200 all in. It would be more important IMO to have a solid cleaning regimen than any upgrades. Playing dirty records not only sounds bad it wears out both the record and the stylus.

SCompRacer

TNHNDYMAN wrote: »

OK- Larger records are on 33 speed. The small ones take 45.

Dan, just to add to this, some 12" records are recorded at 45RPM and will sound funny if played at 33.

Until you get some form of record cleaning device, you can use micro fiber towels, hand wash and dry. I'm not a fan of drip drying records. IIRC there were some inexpensive clamps you could buy that covered labels to keep them dry. Here is a diy thread from vinyl engine where a guy made his own label covers and vac.

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=50884

EndersShadow

SCompRacer wrote: »

Dan, just to add to this, some 12" records are recorded at 45RPM and will sound funny if played at 33.

Until you get some form of record cleaning device, you can use micro fiber towels, hand wash and dry. I'm not a fan of drip drying records. IIRC there were some inexpensive clamps you could buy that covered labels to keep them dry. Here is a diy thread from vinyl engine where a guy made his own label covers and vac.

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=50884

Thanks Rich. I see making one of those very soon.

Anyone have some links to the sleeves I need? I remember seeing someone post some that were like 20 bucks for 50 of them or something...

hochpt21

http://www.amazon.com/MOBILE-FIDELITY-MFSL-INNER-SLEEVES/dp/B001LQSFKY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384034156&sr=8-1&keywords=mofi+sleeves

These are what I use.

EndersShadow

hochpt21 wrote: »

http://www.amazon.com/MOBILE-FIDELITY-MFSL-INNER-SLEEVES/dp/B001LQSFKY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384034156&sr=8-1&keywords=mofi+sleeves

These are what I use.

Thats what I was thinking.

What about these as well: http://www.amazon.com/100-Record-Outer-Sleeves-Polyethylene/dp/B001716LMM/ref=wl_mb_hu_m_1_dp

PolkieMan

I use these INNER sleeves

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000V4URJ4/ref=oh_details_o07_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1


these are OUTER

http://www.amazon.com/100-Record-Outer-Sleeves-Polyethylene/dp/B001716LMM/ref=wl_mb_hu_m_1_dp

EndersShadow

PolkieMan wrote: »

I use these INNER sleeves

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000V4URJ4/ref=oh_details_o07_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

these are OUTER

http://www.amazon.com/100-Record-Outer-Sleeves-Polyethylene/dp/B001716LMM/ref=wl_mb_hu_m_1_dp

Yeah I got that. Here is what I was thinking:

Inner: http://www.amazon.com/MOBILE-FIDELITY-MFSL-INNER-SLEEVES/dp/B001LQSFKY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384034156&sr=8-1&keywords=mofi+sleeves

Outer: http://www.amazon.com/100-Record-Outer-Sleeves-Polyethylene/dp/B001716LMM/ref=wl_mb_hu_m_1_dp

I see those Mo-Fi sleeves recommended time and time again. Are the inner ones you linked too better or just different?

PolkieMan

yES THE MOBILE FIDELITY are better maybe I should buy some for my most precious records but the others do a good job

these are a little cheaper
http://www.amazon.com/100-Record-Outer-Sleeves-Polyethylene/dp/B000RA7IZS/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1384221128&sr=1-1

bernardo

I've been using these and been happy with them
Outer: https://www.bagsunlimited.com/p-4186-12-record-jacket-sleeve.aspx
Inner: https://www.bagsunlimited.com/p-3155-12-white-polylined-sleeves.aspx

On the inner ones, though you will have a little piece showing just like the picture... Ymmv

pitdogg2

here's one Dan I use great folks and always have discounts. I have just called up to ask for a demo and they have sent some to me SACD super jewel cases that is...

http://www.sleevecityusa.com/

dkg999

I have the Ortofon 2M Blue on my MH MMF5.1SE table. I use it with a SimAudio Moon LP3.5 phono pre. It sounds really good. I'm not sure if the Project Debut III can use the Project speed controller. If it can I may have one of those available as I am going to move up to the better speed controller for my Project RM5.1SE table.

DaveHo

I've got an AT 440mla cart on my Debut III. This required the heavier counter weight. The stock Ortofon sucks to be blunt. I had horrible inner groove distortion which I could not eliminate no matter how much I futzed with alignment. I've been very happy with the 440mla though it was very bright out of the box. Settled down after about 40 hrs is just downright sweet sounding now. Spending more probably is overkill for the Debut III.

Once you start looking at platter upgrades, speed box, etc, unless you can get it for a steal I really think you'd be better off just moving up the food chain to a better table.

Other than that I currently use a Spin Clean, and an AQ carbon fiber brush for record care. A Zerodust for stylus maintenance & a Zerostat for static issues. Though the MoFi sleeves are good, I've switched to the Sleevecity Audiophile inners. Same design as the Mo-Fi, but a little bit thicker so they don't bunch up as easily.

scottyboy76

Congrats Dan, I hope you like the vinyl, let us know how it stacks up to what you have been using as a source.

cnh

DaveHo wrote: »

I've got an AT 440mla cart on my Debut III. This required the heavier counter weight. The stock Ortofon sucks to be blunt. I had horrible inner groove distortion which I could not eliminate no matter how much I futzed with alignment. I've been very happy with the 440mla though it was very bright out of the box. Settled down after about 40 hrs is just downright sweet sounding now. Spending more probably is overkill for the Debut III.

Once you start looking at platter upgrades, speed box, etc, unless you can get it for a steal I really think you'd be better off just moving up the food chain to a better table.

Other than that I currently use a Spin Clean, and an AQ carbon fiber brush for record care. A Zerodust for stylus maintenance & a Zerostat for static issues. Though the MoFi sleeves are good, I've switched to the Sleevecity Audiophile inners. Same design as the Mo-Fi, but a little bit thicker so they don't bunch up as easily.

Not to be dense, but what "exactly" does "inner groove distortion" sound like? I do not believe I have ever heard anything like that even on the cheapest of tables? Maybe I just don't know what to listen for and if I knew I'd start hearing all kinds of things I've never heard before. Or maybe all of my TTs are just too low end. I do have an OMP10 on one table? Certainly not an expensive cartridge, but "adequate" for my minimal collection and purposes.

cnh

EndersShadow

scottyboy76 wrote: »

Congrats Dan, I hope you like the vinyl, let us know how it stacks up to what you have been using as a source.

Its good, but I'll admit, need to clean my dad's LPs. They were stored in a upright box for MANY years in our attic. They look in decent shape but could benefit from a decent cleaning. Once thats done I bet they will sound even better.

For now though, I can admit the overal sound seems to have more weight and impact. Without the Citation EQ in the mix though I cant clean up the highs as much as I would like. I dont have as much volume on the highs and mids as I would like. But with that said it sounds like I assume a actual live performance would.

Still not as good IMHO as some of the FLAC I have that has been mastered a bit better.

Could also be I am too used to a "hot" mix given my age.

Enjoying the actual manual process as it forces me to really listen to an entire side at once. Also enjoying sharing it with Skye. She loves crawling around in my 2 channel room and playing while playing daddys LP's.

Right now shes jamming out to Mozart Symphony #36 in C

Jhayman

EndersShadow wrote: »

Its good, but I'll admit, need to clean my dad's LPs. They were stored in a upright box for MANY years in our attic. They look in decent shape but could benefit from a decent cleaning. Once thats done I bet they will sound even better.

For now though, I can admit the overal sound seems to have more weight and impact. Without the Citation EQ in the mix though I cant clean up the highs as much as I would like. I dont have as much volume on the highs and mids as I would like. But with that said it sounds like I assume a actual live performance would.

Still not as good IMHO as some of the FLAC I have that has been mastered a bit better.

Could also be I am too used to a "hot" mix given my age.

Enjoying the actual manual process as it forces me to really listen to an entire side at once. Also enjoying sharing it with Skye. She loves crawling around in my 2 channel room and playing while playing daddys LP's.


Right now shes jamming out to Mozart Symphony #36 in C

I like that as well I listen to the whole side now and I have discovered a wealth of songs I really never gave a listen to before and Love now..
I use a AT440mla and 2M Blue I find the blue louder and slightly brighter, I prefer the 440 it's more laid back and tighter.

My vinyl is superior in every way to my Flac going from my PC to Yamaha AV-2000..streamed.

EndersShadow

Thought I would throw this out there simply because I thought it might be worthwhile for other TT guys. A buddy turned me on to this guy on ebay. He makes acrylic platters for both my Pro-Ject debut as well as Rega and other Pro-Ject turntables. Costs seem decent but I havent looked at shipping costs.

For my records when I look at this thread, here are the three options I have

One in black
One in clear
And one in white/frost

The last one looks like it would probably look best with my white debut, however the clear one is the cheaper option as well...