Phantom Center: Pros/Cons
falconcry72
Posts: 3,580
I have started to give more attention to my HT system. I've been experimenting with many types of speakers, and I am currently using Usher Audio Dancer Mini 2 DMD's for fronts and an Usher Audio BE-616 DMD as a center. They match great, and this center is tied for the best center I've ever heard (along with the LSiM-706).
As good as this center is, the system sounds better using a phantom center... from the sweet spot. This center uses an identical tweeter as the fronts, and with Audyssey you can get real close to perfect timber and level matching, but it will never be as perfect as using the fronts to reproduce the center signal... as long as you're in the sweet spot. From outside the sweet spot, I prefer using an actual center to anchor dialogue and add to the 3D soundstage.
Another consideration is amplification. I am currently using a 5-channel amp. If I went with a phantom center, I could use a receiver to power the surrounds, and then sell the 5-channel amp and replace it with a higher quality 2-channel amp just for the fronts, for the same cost. 2-channel amps are more common and would give me more amplification options.
What do you guys think?
As good as this center is, the system sounds better using a phantom center... from the sweet spot. This center uses an identical tweeter as the fronts, and with Audyssey you can get real close to perfect timber and level matching, but it will never be as perfect as using the fronts to reproduce the center signal... as long as you're in the sweet spot. From outside the sweet spot, I prefer using an actual center to anchor dialogue and add to the 3D soundstage.
Another consideration is amplification. I am currently using a 5-channel amp. If I went with a phantom center, I could use a receiver to power the surrounds, and then sell the 5-channel amp and replace it with a higher quality 2-channel amp just for the fronts, for the same cost. 2-channel amps are more common and would give me more amplification options.
What do you guys think?
2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's
Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses
Office: Phone/Tablet > AudioEngine B1 > McIntosh D100 > Bryston 4B-ST > Polk Audio LSiM-703's
Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses
Office: Phone/Tablet > AudioEngine B1 > McIntosh D100 > Bryston 4B-ST > Polk Audio LSiM-703's
Post edited by falconcry72 on
Comments
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Because the center being a MTM is a poor design and lobes off axis. Unless you can fit a third Usher Audio Dancer Mini 2 DMD in the center, it's very possible a phantom center will sound better."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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I think for HT you have to and must gear it around the center channel. Phantom shmantom as your never going to really localise that pan like you can with a center ch. I think if your not happy with the center than start again and go for a system that has a monster center and get that tower power from your dialogue
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If you have a stereo pair that image very well, as I understand the Ushers do, there is no need for a center. I find with my rig, the other surround locations are simply not needed with the big SDA's at all. I have yet to take the time to even set up the surround locations at all.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
I would only use the phantom center if it was my only option. If for some reason you cant get wire to your center speaker location or if you didn't have room for a center speaker. It doesn't sound bad but if you want it to be correctly done i would pass on it and get a center.
But if you think it sounds better in phantom mode then go for it. As long as your system sounds good to you.B&W CM9Classé Sigma -
If you're gonna do it...do it right, center speaker all the way."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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Phantom is cool in the sweet spot, but a center is needed to get proper sound to other locations in the room. If you are the only person who ever watches TV and you sit in the same spot every time, go for the phantom.
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I think it depend on what side of the fence you stand on.
Yes, you could go all out 2 ch and just rock that and say the hell with all the surround formats. It works....even in a pinch. I did it myself with some very basic KEF egg speakers and a small sub. It sounded a million times better than dealing with the oem tv speakers until I got a better system together. With the Uni-Q drivers, dialog was well rendered at all seats on the couch and pretty well centered with good L-R pan.
Once, I finally got a full surround setup...i.e.. BIG SOUND to match the BIG SCREEN things changed. Running two channel with the 48" tall towers of cource brings the sound up a bit. However, running a 5.1 setup in Dolby TrueHD was a whole new experience! Yes, we all wish the center channel was in the center of the screen. However, with a large screen the only choice to try get get dialog up is to angle the center and try different surround formats. Yes, angle your center! Find the right angle or sweet spot to hit your ears. DIY might be the way to go as the angle one needs will vary.
IMO, Emotiva makes a nice pedestal: http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/accessories/products/xrcs1
So, be happy with a 2-in-1 system...or pick the side of fence you want to stand on! The 2 ch vs. HT battle has no end in sight!!!2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2 -
There is no right or wrong answer to this. Everyone's room,gear, and ears are different. Personally I haven't use a center in about 8 years and haven't missed it at all. Depends on how well your fronts image. Try it first with a wide range of source material, no harm no foul either way and doesn't cost anything to try.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
The only speakers I've happily used with a phantom center have been SDA 1C's and 2.3TL's. Panning effects and dialogue worked well with those. I removed the center speaker (LSic) I had because it wasn't needed with the SDA setup. Any other conventional front end speaker set up I've tried has fallen short of that experience in terms of trying to get by without a center speaker. I've been using a center channel speaker slightly angled upwards to the listening area for a few years now with JMlab speakers that image exceptionally well for the stereo pair, but don't come up to satisfactory performance levels for home theater without the matching center channel in place.
