Good article on HRA - High Res Audio

BlueFox

This gives a good overview of digital music formats over the years, and hints we are moving into a time of even better sounding music. I like how he classifies MP3 as low-res, CDs as mid-res, and the rest (DVD-A, SACD, 24/'x' files, and DSD) as HRA.

I suspect we are on the verge of a new wave of HRA source components. Gee, I thought after what I went through over the last year I was done with upgrades for awhile. :biggrin:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/cd-quality-not-high-res-audio

tonyb

Eh, we don't agree on that one. The CD offers good sound on the cheap, and that still suits a lot of people. SACD is too expensive, High rez downloads are too expensive right now too. To kill the CD, prices and compatibility issues need to improve. I don't see all the copy protection coming off of SACD, and I don't see their prices coming down either. Digital downloads in MP3 is moveable from computer, phone, laptops, car, and other portable devices, hence the popularity. Good sound isn't as popular as convenient sound.

The death of vinyl was well written eons ago, but look today and you see a resurgence. Same with the gear that goes along with it. Tubed gear was almost dead with the intro of SS gear. SS at the time just couldn't compete sound wise with tubes. While technology will make it easier to obtain and play hi-rez files, prices to the masses need to come way down. Maybe that will happen in 10 years, maybe not....who knows. What I do know is, the general public won't pay 5 bucks a song and not be able to listen on their phone or in the car. Heck, I wouldn't pay that anyway. Good sound never goes out of style no matter what changes, for some of us anyway.

It's all about making money, always has, always will be. The costs of hi-rez files and the compatibility issues of SACD is whats holding them back. I just don't see a screaming consumer base for higher rez....yet. Plus, think about this. How long before music services start with higher rez music ? That would force online sellers of higher rez files to lower the prices. Either way, the big corporations are going to have to give up some to gain some, otherwise the next 10 years will be the same as the last.

BlueFox

I agree with both points of view. Elect me. :biggrin:

Anyway, the issue is not whether CD, or physical media, is going away, but that we are now seeing more and more opportunities to buy and hear better sounding music. For me, that is why I have paid bueno dinero for stereo gear. The funny part is I have yet to download a single high-res file. Aside from being lazy, I can't really justify the price at this point. So it is a good thing we are seeing things such as Sony offering up their catalog for DSD downloads. Competition will put pressure on HD Tracks and others to lower their prices.

Also, I am not to worried about a format war between PCM and DSD since it is easy to make DAC chips that can decode any file format.

In regard to CDs going away, we are seeing sales decrease. Both Wadia and Cary have stopped making CD players and it is reasonable to expect other smaller players to also stop as sales dwindle. While vinyl sales are increasing, they are still tiny in regard to overall music sales. At some point we can expect people to get tired of all the associated hassle with vinyl, and reduce their purchases. As mentioned in another thread, SACD is a niche product for a 'few' people. While I still buy SACDs I find myself buying the CD equivalent so that I can put it on my music server. When I can start buying the DSD file without the copy protection then I will stop buying SACDs. Of course, if Bryston hasn't updated their DAC firmware to play DSD then I will need a new DAC, but that is a good thing since the whole point of having separates is to be able to upgrade as better components are available.

Anyway, for music lovers we are entering a golden age of good sounding music. Better upgrade those power cords so you can hear it. :biggrin:

tonyb

Why man ? Dacs will add a whole dimension to the sound, DSD or not. Look, if your holding off because of format wars, you'll never buy a dac then because format wars will always exist. It's that constant struggle between companies for the all mighty consumer dollar that keeps these wars afloat. If every player was to accept DSD, then they'd come out with super hi-rez DSD. It's the nature of the beast.

tonyb

I hear ya, but if you keep waiting for the next latest and greatest, you'll always be waiting. Their will always be something better around the corner. Once everyone has bought newer gear, then they'll make something else that isn't compatible and the cycle continues.

The Oppo 105 is a machine, does everything and does it well from all accounts. You won't find that much for that little in cost in another product. Break out the S&H green stamps your hording under the bed and go get one.:biggrin:

headrott

What do you guys consider "CD's becoming obsolete"? If (as some of you claim) CD sales decrease and SACD's increase? Being as a majority of SACD's are hybrid CD/SACD, even if "SACD's" overtake "CD's", since most SACD's have the CD layer included, "CD's" really won't be going anywhere assuming your scenario above. That's my thinking anyway.

RamZet

unless apple sells lossless audio music quality will never never improve. the average person is ok listening to music with their iphone speaker or headset.
I would love to see CDs or SACD make a comeback, I would really love to see the MP3 go away and have the option to buy AIFF or WAV files from iTunes or xbox music. But MP3 is cheap, small file size, and the average person doesn't care.

tonyb

RamZet wrote: »

But MP3 is cheap, small file size, and the average person doesn't care.

Ding ding.....plus the convenience factor of just buying a song on the fly no matter where your at. Anyone can use a computer to download a quality file these days and playback on quality gear. Apple/Itunes is for the I want it now generation that only cares about convenience, not sound quality.

txcoastal1

I believe the demand for better quality audio will improve. The demand for quality head phones is on the rise enlightening the 20 something generation for better quality downloads. Hence the slight rise in TT and vinyl sales.

You have to remember most of us here on the forum are 28+ and actually average close to 40+ yrs or older. We grew up with different formats, and we have the money.

Is it our 15 yr old fault they only know MP3 & Itunes,.... no because its all they know unless they are taught different.

tonyb

C'mon man, what teenager knows squat about quality sound, let alone how to get it ? All they care about is loud, cheap, portability. The industry has zeroed in on that and that's why Ipods/ITunes, music on your phone, is so popular. That's why we have the "loudness wars" in recorded music. Only when they get older and have some change in their pockets will they seek better audio.

Another aspect is teenagers don't even know how to listen, or for what. All they listen to is loud and a pounding bass. I did a small experiment with my 20 year old nephew. I asked him to listen to this guitar solo and tell me what he hears. Dire Straights, was the band of choice and he never heard of them. Mark has a few small solo's in a variety of songs but I believe Local Hero was all him doing his thing. So I throw it in, crank it up. I ask the lad, what do you think ? Anything stick out worth mentioning ?

He says to me, I thought it was going to be someone jamming on the guitar....like Van Halen. I said, Did you notice how the notes just floated in the air, the sharpness of the tones, his fingers sliding on the guitar strings ? He said......HUH ? That's all I needed to hear.

Dawgfish

All of the convenience of digital sources is well and good. I enjoy all sources wether it be CDs, SACDs, DVDAs, computer files, streaming, or vinyl. They all have their strengths and their place. In the end though, when it comes down to serious listening digital will never replace the enjoyment I get from vinyl. I always welcome more sources of high quality recordings though no matter what form they happen to be.

txcoastal1

I get all that Tony, but when you were young there were very few media types, the family core was completely different, and so was the music. There wasn't 5 TV's, multiple stereos etc.

When the TV was turned off and the stereo turned on thats what you "listened" too. We "listened" to what out parents, and grand parents played which we now call real music vs whats popular today. But do you remember when the music started to change and how our elders complained about th genre?

It's just a different world and we're in it.

tonyb

Of course, but this is beyond genre. It's an appreciation for good sound. When I was young, transistor type table top radio's were all over. Sounded like crap too, but when I went to my grandparents house they had an old console style tube radio in the living room which sounded fantastic in comparison. Did I really care at that age ? Nope, but I had a preference if given the choice. Think of the battery powered transistor radio as yesterday's Ipod. You could carry it wherever you went, even fit in a shirt pocket too. Popular beyond belief, yet sounded like crap.

Point being, nothings changed. Portability still hasn't addressed the issues of quality sound, nor do I think they are in a hurry to do so because frankly, their targeted audience doesn't care about quality sound.

jeremymarcinko

The the vast majority doesn't have a sound system good enough to provide the benefit HRA offers. In my system the differences between sacd and 320kbps subtle at best. I have a/b tested dsd over hdmi and streaming the same the same track via spotify (onkyo's built in app) the differences were there but pretty subtle. If I wasn't critical I would have never noticed.

Irrenhaus

Well just to try, I just got Marquise Knox Here I Am from HD Tracks at 192khz/24bit in FLAC it sounds amazing and this is using the Oppo 103

They have Norah Jones I may get that also and compared to her SACD......

Cheers

And is single malt, cigars and music night...........

Nightfall

There will always be more people that don't care about SQ then do, forever and until the end of time.

Edit: Of these same people the vast majority cannot tell SQ differences past a certain point which is surprisingly low. I know more people that cannot tell the difference between 128kbps MP3 and SACD/FLAC/DVD-A then can. Especially on your average piece of audio equipment out there you can purchase from Walmart.

Nightfall

Your proposal is a long, long way off. The biggest iPhone you can buy is still only 32Gb. Even if it had a slot for microSD, such as most Android phones which is the next most popular device used to play music by the masses, the largest card you can buy on Amazon right now is only 128Gb and costs $300. I have 15Gb of FLAC just in five randomly chosen bands and DSD files are even larger.

When that time DOES come though there would still be benefits to smaller file sizes such as conserved battery life and lower transfer times.

BlueFox

Actually, 64GB is the biggest iPhone you can currently buy. My 5 is 64GB. However, your point is still valid. I wonder when somebody will develop a lossless compression algorithm for DSD and high-res PCM files.

http://store.apple.com/us/question/answers/iphone/should-i-get-a-32gb-or-64gb-iphone/QKT9D9HYA2JC4Y2JY

Nightfall

DSkip wrote: »

http://www.amazon.com/Lexar-Professional-256GB-Memory-LSD256CTBNA600/dp/B0090BEWKY

256 GB cards were announced over a year ago. I didn't say it was cheap, but its going to continue doubling. That's exponential growth, something we aren't seeing in audio formats.

That card is not microSD, those are normally used on cameras and such not really phones. The 128Gb microSD is relatively new.

Is there anyway to find out how much a 64Gb microSD cost when they first came out?

steveinaz

Calling CD's "mid-fi" is not only incorrect in literal terms (see the definition of "High-Fidelity"), it's a dumb statement. I have many CD's that far outperform any previous vinyl releases. The weakness of Red Book is human error. I've been at this 37 years; owned every source available (vinyl/8-track/Cassette/Reel-to-Reel/CD---and yes 24/192 material) and a well engineered/recorded CD (with the possible exception of 24/96--24/192 material) sounds excellent. Hi-Res (24bit) stuff can edge it out, but it's relatively subtle in the grand scheme of things.

Just my opinion.

tonyb

Actually, I agree Steve. I've long said a well recorder redbook cd can sound fantastic. The problem comes in at finding one. What most are making today in the cd format is junk, possible exceptions of course. The file format wars is driven to sell gear. 16/44 is now the **** child. While I have no doubt higher rez files can sound better, it is no guarantee that it actually will in all cases.

steveinaz

Exactly Tony---Redbook has the potential to be the much promised "perfect sound forever" if the human element could get it's **** together. Changes in audio formats reminds me of a kid that's ADD; instead completeing the job at hand, we jump around looking for other solutions instead of addressing the REAL problem.

nspindel

tonyb wrote: »

...He says to me, I thought it was going to be someone jamming on the guitar....like Van Halen. I said, Did you notice how the notes just floated in the air, the sharpness of the tones, his fingers sliding on the guitar strings ? He said......HUH ? That's all I needed to hear.

Yes, but....

Everyone has different ears, and everyone has different cares, including kids. My son is just like yours. Really couldn't care less about sound quality. Give him his iphone with his mp3's, give him a dock, and all he cares about is how loud it can play. I've sat him down in my SDA sweet spot, and he really doesn't have much interest in it. He'll acknowledge that it sounds good, but it's not as if he ever asks me if he can listen to it, there's no interest. But he has friends who have been absolutely blown away by it. So I think it varies depending on the kid, just like it did 35 years ago or so when I first started getting into audio.

nspindel

DSkip wrote: »

The real issue with that argument is, what will be the "new" hi Rez file type once this shift is possible? Hi Rez as we know it today may be laughed at in 15 years, with people saying "how did we ever think that sounded good?" It is an endless cycle, but I still personally feel that portable storage will still far exceed file size in technological growth. Eventually, regardless of the newest and best, file size is going to be a moot point for society.

Actually, I think the "really real" issue is that if they don't start making some decent music again soon, none of this will matter. It's amazing how many times I've bought the same 30 year old albums over and over again as I've drifted from one format to another. Now I'm back into vinyl, and I'm buying the same freakin albums I threw away 15 years ago! I really can't see myself getting to the point point where my 24-bit Dark Side of the Moon doesn't sound good enough any more, I'll want the 48-bit version. If music continues sucking, with new stardom continuing to be bestowed by winning a game show, etc., then will future hi-gher rez formats even matter?

nspindel

I'm only using Dark Side of the Moon as an example of an album I've bought over the years in many different formats. The problem with all the bands you're mentioning is that they are the fringe element of modern music, the far too few to move music markets towards quality over loudness wars. These formats only have any longevity if people care. There's a reason Miley Cyrus made the headlines long before she started twerking on stage, and that's because pop music is always the driving economic force. That's what sells, and whatever sells is where the industry will focus.

tonyb

It's called built in obsolesce Steve. Just like cars, just like appliances, and every other thing you can imagine. If a 16/44 cd was the bomb, the industry as a whole would stand still. No more ongoing compatibility issues, you'd be able to download quality music for free instead of paying those hyped up prices on the internet for better recordings. That's what we all dreamed of anyway. In the end, the almighty dollar will be the driver and will dictate where this all winds up. Then again, there never will be a definitive end to file wars, it will always change to drive the industry. Such is life.

BlueFox

Start listening to classical. So far, I have only bought one classical CD that was made loud. It is Two Cellos. These chumps tried to take current songs, and put them in a classical format. So far so good, but making it loud was unacceptable.

http://www.amazon.com/2Cellos-Sulic-Hauser/dp/B004XWMXW4/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1380049180&sr=1-1&keywords=two+cellos

steveinaz

I find that most current Country music is far better mastered as well.

RamZet

steveinaz wrote: »

I find that most current Country music is far better mastered as well.

I dont like country but I will say that I have noticed that too. They spend some time in the studio making their music sound great.

_______________________


Im not looking for the market to move 100% over to super HD 1million bit downloads but I would like CD quality downloads. I dont get how the market moved backwards. I get its a storage space problem but why cant I download my music form iTunes at CD quality and when I want it on a mobile device iTunes just converts it to MP3 for a smaller size during the sync. Computers come with load a HDD/SSD space.

txcoastal1

I was thinking (uh-oh) while on one of my city to city drives the other day, it would be nice if an artist every 3-4 albums would produce a best of remastered well recorded CD....just some thoughts

Of course it would be nice if produced right the 1st time.

madmax

My highest resolution in audio is to stick with vinyl!

Mastering is the most important aspect, I think, although there are many algorithms to choose from with digital and they all seem to have their own artifacts. A recording guy I know has given me material to try with is mastered the same way but is processed using different algorithms and they all sound totally different.
madmax