sound of vinyl question

pglbook

I got my Thorens TD 160 tt fully serviced recently and I finally found some time today to get it connected and to spin some vinyl. I have the tt connected to my vintage Yamaha CR 2020 receiver. And the sound is amazing, so much better than CDs in terms of sound clarity.

However, one thing I did notice is that I had to turn the volume up about twice as loud when playing vinyl as compared to CDs in order to get the same level of loudness. Is that normal?
I just want to make sure I got everything connected properly.

When I play CDs, I could barely turn the volume on my Yamha receiver past the 1 setting as it was quite loud. However, to get the same loudness when playing vinyl, I have to set the volume at 2 or even 2 1/2.

I have only played 2 albums tonight since I got the tt connected (Elton' John's 1st album and Jethro Tull's Aqualung) and I want to make sure there is no issuer with the tt or the connection.

Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

[Deleted User]

Hello,
What's the output of your phono cartridge?
Ken

pglbook

Ken:

Sorry, but I do not understand the question.

I bought a new Shure M97xE cartridge and recently had the cartridge mounted and the tt serviced at a local audio shop.

pglbook

Ken:

I think I may have discovered the problem.

I am quite embarrassed to admit that I wrongly connected the RCA plugs to the back of my Yamaha receiver. The RCA plugs are red and white plugs and the RCA jacks on the back of the receiver just had R and L and I mistakenly connected the red RCA plug into the L jack on the back of the receiver rather than into the R jack. What an idiot I am!

I just checked the back of the receive to troubleshoot this and noticed the incorrectly-attached RCA plugs and switched them so that the red RCA plug is now in the correct R jack and the volume seems to be normal again, close to the same sound volume as a CD.

Would having the red RCA plug in the wrong (L) RCA jack on the back of the receiver have caused the volume issue I was experiencing?

That was the only issue as, otherwise, the sound was great and the records played and sounded fine.

Thanks.

nspindel

Hmmmmmmm................

That should only cause the left and right channels to be reversed. Shouldn't have any impact on volume.

I used to have a Thorens TD-166 with the same cartridge, so a very similar setup as yours. I had no issues with volume differences between vinyl and cd's.

brgman

How far is the RCA run?
Is there a switch for MM and MC on the receiver?

[Deleted User]

Hi pglbook,
Anything can happen, but the Shure outputs 4mV and the Yamaha has an input sensitivity of 2mV, so you should be fine, plenty of incoming signal for full output. I can recommend the Jico replacement stylus for the Shure, it significantly improves the upper frequency linearity and tracing capability. I know this is another case of Polk members helping others spend more money and I don't do that lightly. But, in this case it is an improvement you can consider sometime in the future.
Enjoy your records!
Ken

pglbook

Brgman, I think you are right because, although it seemed to sound louder, in reality I still have the volume knob at 2 when playing an album when I only have to turn the volume knob to 1 to when playing a CD to get the same volume.

I had to buy an RCA coupler and 6' RCA run because, when I moved the tt farther away from the receiver yesterday, the RCA plugs from the back of the tt would not reach to the RCA jacks on the back of the receiver so I had to find a way to lengthen the run. Could that be the problem?

I also just noticed the different switches on the receiver: MC, MM, 2/MM. I have it set at MM.
I switched it to MC and no sound comes out when it is set at either the MC or 2/MM setting.
There is only sound with the MM setting.

Thanks.

Dawgfish

It's normal for different sources to have different levels of output. It doesn't sound like its a huge difference between the two. The Shure has an output of 4.0 mv, which is plenty of output. The Shure is a moving magnet type cartridge. While looking at the specs for your receiver, I noticed it has a couple different settings for MM cartridges like your Shure, and another setting for moving coil cartridges which can have much lower output levels than MM cartridges. I would play with the different MM settings on the phono switch located on the front right of the receiver. One word of caution though, make sure your volume is turned down on the receiver so you don't get a huge spike from going to a setting with higher gain, which could damage your speakers. Try it at low volume settings and you will be fine. That's a really sweet setup btw.

[Deleted User]

In order to use the additional gain of the moving coil circuitry you would have to connect the table to the "phono 2" input, then select "MC". But that would severely overload the phono stage, you have a moving magnet cartridge. In all likelihood there was something other than just reversed connections. The reason for the difference is that a CD player outputs around 1.0 Volt and the high level input on the Yamaha is 120mV, so a CD player is providing quite a bit of signal, so it will play fairly loudly.
But, as long as everything sounds okay, that's really what the volume control is supposed to do, let different sources play at the same level. I can point out that the Jico styli will increase the output by almost 3dB.

pglbook

Thanks, Dawgfish. I appreciate it. I only get sound from the MM setting on the receiver.
When I change the setting to the MC or 2/MM setting (the other 2 options on the front of the receiver), there is no sound.

pglbook

Ken, Thanks for the info on the Jico stylus. It sounds like an upgrade for the future. I appreciate it.

Dawgfish

Sorry I was writing while the others posted. Regardless though as I was saying above its normal for different sources to have different output levels and doesn't sound like its a huge difference from what you were saying above. As long as it sounds good, I think it's perfectly normal and everything's ok.

[Deleted User]

You have to unplug the table from "phono 1" to "phono 2" connections, but it's not necessary to do that. It will sound terrible.

pglbook

Ken, yes everything sounds great when playing a record. I just have to turn the volume knob up to 2 or 3 to get the same loudness as compared to playing a CD, when I just have to turn the volume knob to the 1 volume setting.

But it is no big deal as I can easily turn the volume knob up.

I was just concerned if I had connected things wrongly or if there was an issue with the tt or some other issue going on.

The only other thing I have to get used to on this tt is that it does not have an automatic lift at the end of an album side but keeps on spinning at the end of a record until I lift the tonearm off of the album.

Thanks again for all of the prompt and knowledgeable feedback! Now back to listening to some vinyl.
It is Dexter Gordon's (Homecoming) turn for a spin!

Jhayman

Hi Ken, I also have a CR 2020 I use 2 TT's plugged into phono 1 and 2, the phono knob on the 2020 has 3 settings MC and MM 1 and 2 I thought phono 1 and 2 were for 2 TT's plugged in at the same time and you could switch back and forth between them and use the MC settings if one if your carts was a MC..
I'm thinking you are correct as the volume on one of the TT's is less than the other, I just thought it was a difference in MV..

Kenneth Swauger wrote: »

In order to use the additional gain of the moving coil circuitry you would have to connect the table to the "phono 2" input, then select "MC". But that would severely overload the phono stage, you have a moving magnet cartridge. In all likelihood there was something other than just reversed connections. The reason for the difference is that a CD player outputs around 1.0 Volt and the high level input on the Yamaha is 120mV, so a CD player is providing quite a bit of signal, so it will play fairly loudly.
But, as long as everything sounds okay, that's really what the volume control is supposed to do, let different sources play at the same level. I can point out that the Jico styli will increase the output by almost 3dB.

Jhayman

I would bring it back to the tech as he hound have did a proper run though of checking playback which should have included checking the cueing lever before signing of on it..

pglbook wrote: »

I got my Thorens TD 160 tt fully serviced recently and I finally found some time today to get it connected and to spin some vinyl. I have the tt connected to my vintage Yamaha CR 2020 receiver. And the sound is amazing, so much better than CDs in terms of sound clarity.

However, one thing I did notice is that I had to turn the volume up about twice as loud when playing vinyl as compared to CDs in order to get the same level of loudness. Is that normal?
I just want to make sure I got everything connected properly.

When I play CDs, I could barely turn the volume on my Yamha receiver past the 1 setting as it was quite loud. However, to get the same loudness when playing vinyl, I have to set the volume at 2 or even 2 1/2.

I have only played 2 albums tonight since I got the tt connected (Elton' John's 1st album and Jethro Tull's Aqualung) and I want to make sure there is no issuer with the tt or the connection.

Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

[Deleted User]

All right, Dexter Gordon, I have three copies of that record as well as the CD version, enjoy them all.

pglbook

ok, after hours of playing various albums, my conclusion is that it is the recording itself rather than the tt or receiver which has to do with the differing sound quality. Just like some CDS (especially 1st generation CDs from mid to late 1980s) sound worse than others, I am discovering that some vinyl recordings sound "worse" than others and that, I think, was the reason for the low volume I was experiencing when playing some records.

Does that make any sense?

The first 2 albums I played were original first pressings of Elton John's self-titled first album (1970) and Jethro Tull's Aqualung (1972). When playing those 2 records I had to push the volume up close to 3 to get the volume comparable to what I normally would hear from a CD playback with volume at the 1 setting. The last record I played (and am listening to as I am typing this) is a brand new vinyl reissue of the Miles Davis/Milt Jackson Quintet/Sextet and the sound is great. I only have the volume at 1 and is loud. It was similar when I played Dexter Gordon's Homecoming (although that is a 1977 release). Other than the fact that some jazz recordings may have better sound quality than rock recordings (thanks a lot to Rudy Van Gelder), it seems that some records just have better sound quality than others, just as some CDs have better sound than others.

So I am now thinking that there is nothing wrong with the tt or any connections or the receiver but rather that it is just the difference in the recording quality of some records that accounts for the difference in sound and explains the need for volume adjustments when playing some records.

I may be totally wrong (and please tell me if you disagree) but that is what I think was happening.

Thanks again to all who responded.

doctor r

There is another consideration in this situation. The CR 2020 is vintage 1977. Most audio at that time was designed for their non phono inputs to receive a signal at 1 volt "line level". The internal gain for the phono inputs were designed to match their signals to this level and the volume would be balanced between different sources. Along came the CDP and a new standard output of 2 volts or greater. This now places the input signal at a greater level than the level the phono is amplified to within the unit. You will probably always have a slight incongruity of these levels with the CD or other digital source always being louder at the same volume level setting due to this increased input.
Rick