5.1/ 7.1 upgrade??

dbournival

Any Comments on a 5.1 to 7.1 upgrade? My current system has a Onkyo 595 5.1 , I am thinking about upgrading to a 7.1 system. But my problem is that my surround speakers are now RT35i's on the back wall (13 feet from the listening position), if I add side side surrounds they will have to be ceiling speakers (in a drop ceiling, and probably to the smaller size) or very small (no more that 6" high, and flush to ceiling) surface mounts. The room is of odd lay out that is why I went with the surrounds on the rear wall to begin with. Do you think I will gain much?? Or am I'm better off leaving it alone??

Dr. Spec

Are speaker stands an option for the side surrounds? I've seen it work very well in a few applications where wall mount is out of the question. I would avoid a ceiling mount.

scottvamp

Sound like a large room. Yes, a properly set up 6/7 channel system is worth it. But with an odd shaped room results WILL vary.

dbournival

Thanks for the reply, I don't think speakers stands are really an option as the wall only goes about 1/2 down the left side then it opens up to a bar and play area. The main seating area is about 3 feet from where the left side wall ends. The reason I could do a small side surround is I have about a 6 1/2 inck area where the ceiling "steps up" on that side on the room, that runs for the entire length of the room. Cambridge and Bose both make small side surrounds, I know thay are not the best way to go, but I wonder if they will add anything (positive). If I did speaker stands the speakers would be forward of the preferred seating area and right next to (2 feet) one area. What do you think now?

scottvamp

No dought, it WILL add some sound and effects to the environment. Many manufactures make "small" spreakers and much cheaper than the two you listed. Your room is not ideal at all for hometheater but with all the openings through out - I personally see all the reason more to add speakers even if it is not DTSES.

dbournival

Scottvamp, who else make speakers that are small that sound decent and are cheaper?

Dr Spec, on the speaker stand question question how high would they have to be? would 3 feet work?

If I did the speaker stands I could probably go with Polk 300s

scottvamp

There are a bunch of small speakers out thier that sound great.
Price range? Most may trip because they are not matched to the rest of your sytem and that is important. But trying fill out the room and having them calibrated (volume wise) go for it. Here are some nice cheap little critters "for example."
High wattage and will kill Blose for price and sound.
Little Surrounds

Kpt_Krunch

Originally posted by scottvamp
Sound like a large room. Yes, a properly set up 6/7 channel system is worth it. But with an odd shaped room results WILL vary.

hmmmmmm - Scott, can you give me a list of DVD's that actually produce 7 channels??????? You can't, as there isn't any. However, there is 6 channel (DTS-EX) - and for the money it isn't worth it. I tried it, and I now use the extra amp I bought to power my RT800i's. I have almost 200 DVD's, and the only DVD that even produces a 6th channel is Saving Private Ryan.

Maybe in the future, but today, I wouldn't bother

Ceruleance

many new dvd's encorporate a 6th channel, and it's often the biggest blockbuster DVD's where sound matters the most IMO. In my room a properly placed 7 channel setup has speakers that are in the middle of the room so they can't be placed there permanently (whereas 5 channel surround can be integrated and is permanent) The 7 channel surround is so much better that I lug 50 pound floorstanding speakers up from the basement and wire them up everytime I watch a movie.

My answer to the 5.1/7.1 question is always that it depends on the size of the room. Sometimes in a small enough room 5.1 will create a convincing surround field, but for larger rooms and oddly placed speakers (like you have), 7.1 will provide a worthwhile improvement.

EDIT: BTW, it's DTS-ES and Dolby Digital EX that have the 6th channel, you are confusing them

Frank Z

Even though there are are no movies out that contain a 7.1 soundtrack, the advancements in soundfield processing make it a worthwhile investment. DPLIIx will add a new twist by creating discrete 6th and 7th channel signals. (do a Google Search for DPLIIx)

Ceruleance

I would use another word than discrete. Yes, all 7 channels will have separate signals, so it is discrete in a sense, but discrete is usually used to describe how many channels are actually encoded on the source, such as a 5.1 discreet DD soundtrack, versus DPL 5.1 matrixed sound. DPLIIx will be matrixed sound.

Frank Z

You are correct sir! poor choice of words on my part...i'm sorry. I will punish myself by upgrading a piece of home audio equipment!

Here's a link for anyone that is interested.

http://hometheater.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.twice.com/index.asp%3Flayout=story%26doc%5Fid=125555%26display=breakingNews

polkatese

I upgraded my system from 5.1 to 7.1 and really enjoy it. With the reasons above, and the added surround effects on multi-channel/movies, given the opportunity, I believe it was a great investment for the future also.

scottvamp

Originally posted by Kpt_Krunch
hmmmmmm - Scott, can you give me a list of DVD's that actually produce 7 channels??????? You can't, as there isn't any. However, there is 6 channel (DTS-EX) - and for the money it isn't worth it. I tried it, and I now use the extra amp I bought to power my RT800i's. I have almost 200 DVD's, and the only DVD that even produces a 6th channel is Saving Private Ryan.
Maybe in the future, but today, I wouldn't bother

Krunch - dude - your killing me over here. Where in the hell did you get ALL this info about me in one simple statement? LOL
First of all the statement WAS 6/7 channel setup is worth it.
Well worth it. 2nd biggest improvment sence DD/dedicated HT.
Little info - I have a 7 channel dedicated reference HT.
Yes, only DTS-ES (Not DTS-EX) has 6 discrete channels. 7th channel will share the rear signal and works very well with a wide room.l
And thier are now over 30 dvd's that are DTS-ES (Not DTS-EX) .
And most quality recievers will play ALL movies in a matrixed 7 channel sound that sounds incrediable with all DVD's.
DD-EX IS a matrixed signal spawning from the side surrounds.
DTS-ES
List
I have over 300 DVD's.
And 6/7 channel is pretty much the standard with recievers in the last year.
I better stop here.....
Do some homework before you try to clown someone.
By the way Krunch you just been schooled.

shyne4life

I have also upgraded to a 7.1 setup and I have to say that it is a very nice upgrade, and as scott said, it even makes some standard dolby digital movies sound better.

Frank Z

Originally posted by scottvamp
I have over 300 DVD's.

HA! I've got over 301!:D

scottvamp

Originally posted by Frank Z
HA! I've got over 301!:D

Dam you Frank - I'm going buy 2 more today. LOL:D

walk

Is 6/7.1 worth it? Well I got one word for you, LORD OF THE RINGS. Whoops thats 4 words. Whatever. To sum up, YES the extra channel(s) are totally worth it. I myself upgraded from a Onk 575 (5.1) to a 700 (6.1) and bought a new Polk center channel, moving my old center to the back-surround. The extra back channel is totally groovy for A) 6-channel music and DTS-ES discs like the aforementioned LOTR, Star Wars, etc...

Loud & Clear

What else are you going to do with center speakers (in my case) that have been upgraded upon? Slap them in the back for some 6.1 action, baby!

dbournival

Thanks for all of the replys, If I put the side speakers on stands they would be 30" or so off of the floor, do you think that would work?

Ceruleance

Originally posted by dbournival
Thanks for all of the replys, If I put the side speakers on stands they would be 30" or so off of the floor, do you think that would work?

yes.

some people recommend surrounds that are elevated above the listener but I have my surrounds at ear level and it sounds good to me

Kpt_Krunch

uhhhhh, I dunno. Don't really want to upgrade my amp every 2 years. As for the EX/ES thing, please forgive me, I always get those two mixed up.

i guess my HK 520 does not put out 6 channels. I have over 200 DVD's as I stated, at least half are less than a year old. With an HK PA2000 connected to my RL/LL output jacks of my HK520 to give me 7.1 channels, Saving Private Ryan was the only movie that produced any sound from the two rear speakers.

If the upgrade is worth it to you - great! I think it will be worth it to me as well once the channels are discrete and there is specific sound directed to the rears. For now, with my room, the 5.1 channel sounds great!

BTW - Scotty, I'm not trying to 'clown' anyone. Feel free to come over and hear for yourself if you think I'm clowning. Just offering my opinion based on my own experience. Just like you are offering your opinion on your experience. So....., well, I won't really start a flame war with a 12 year old, just suffice to say there are a lot of opinions out there, and since we all have free will, the more differing opinions out there, the more information people can digest as to what to consider and watch for to make a more informed decision.

Cheers

scottvamp

It is cool, but you were giving WRONG information. I held out on 6/7 channel just like you and for the same denile reasons. Nothing is changing every two years. With proper preouts and EX/ES nothing has changed in 3 years and nothing is threating the next 3 years (playing it safe). They just can't change formats everday due to software and equipment. 70% of the HT people on this forum were scared of 6/7.1. And that is how technilogy goes. I have 3 HT's and only my Main HT is using the extra channels. But it makes complete sence and now everyone is changing over. 3 speakers on the frontstage and 3 in the side/rear. Giving you 360 sound. I could not imagine having the huge gap in sound in my Main HT. No side or rear speakers - different to say the least.
Once again most 6/7 recievers WILL matrix (*producing sound*) on all dvd's (the more active the surrounds are the more of a discret 6/7 you hear/feel) and thier is like I said WELL over 30 dvds with DTSES.
The people on this forum that have converted to 6/7 channel, you are going to have a very hard time telling them it was not worth it and is crap. Because I know first hand when I did it two years ago it was the next step for me.

Kpt_Krunch

Scott- what kind of receiver do you have? My HK520 will not give me any sound out of a rear speaker unless it is an ES format. Is my HK520 not working right? I don't understand. (Originally set up with my RL/SL outputs going to an HK PA2000, which powered at the time my rear speakers). Oh well, my HK520 is supposed to be able to decode it. Just an example (and maybe you or someone else can clarify this for me), my Pirates of the Carribean DVD is "Dolby Digital 5.1Surrand Sound" and "DTS 5.1 Digital Surround Sound". If ES, and 6.1 (I don't like calling it 7.1 as everything I have read indicates there is no such thing, although you can put in two speakers in the rear and 'split' the 6th channel) is so mainstream now why do the new releases not have it? And again, with my rears hooked up, well, it looks good, but no sound come from them.

So, the only point I was trying to make (but obviously I didn't do a very good job) for me was that since the DVD's with ES are so few and far between, in my mind it is a waste to get extra speakers. If you already have them, (like I do) then I guess it wouldn't hurt. Just trying to save someone the expense I went through for what turned out to be nothing. I do wish I could get a 6th track in the back, but too much work for one movie (SVP). I newer amps send the sound to the rear channel(s) whether or not there is one (5.1) then I realize it would sound a lot better and I would definitely set mine up that way for sure. But my next amp will have DVI/HDMI inputs outputs for video switching, I refuse to upgrade until then.

scottvamp

Ya, that would make a difference - most current recievers will give you a matrixed 6/7 channel on all DD/DTS dvds not to mention music formates, DPS's and all cheannels settings.

flyingrhino

I researched and debated on the upgrade from 5.1 to 7.1 for about a month. I ended up getting the Onkyo 801, Polk RTi8's for the front, CSi5 for the center and RC65i's for the surrounds and back. I too had the problem of no where to put the 4 surround speakers and opted for the 65i's mounted in the ceiling. I was real skeptical at first and leary of cutting out the ceiling so I experimented with speaker positions by hanging the speakers from the ceiling on screws at several locations. I knew if I didn't like them I could always do the CC upgrade within a year. (the holes are easily covered up after experimenting.) I really didn't want to put them in the wall unless I had to and I was afraid that the side surrounds would be too overwhelming shooting down so close to the listening position. BUT, I must say, all fears were for naught! They are now mounted in the ceiling and I am EXTREMELY happy with the sound. This system replaced the RM7300 system which was 5.1 wall mounted.

I know a lot of people shy away from in wall speakers for obvious reasons....you will always get better sound out of a box speaker of equivalent size. But, Polk has really produced a good sounding speaker in the 65. If a traditional speaker is not an option, don't be afraid of the in wall. They look nice too! My wife just wishes I had put the inwall in for the fronts....she doesn't like looking at the towers and especially that monster CSi5.

I don't think you will be disappointed with the in wall/ceiling speakers. I am very pleased and I'm glad I did it.

David