B&W Matrix 802 s3's...
TroyD
Posts: 13,077
Ok, I thought that I'd post my thoughts of the 'new' Beemers....I've been listening pretty intently for the past couple weeks If nothing else, it's got me off the dime and cleaned up the stereo room.
Associated gear: VPI Scoutmaster Table w/Dynavector 20 cart, SACDMods modified Sony SCD-555ES, Dodd one off phono stage, Dodd Battery Preamp, Sunfire amp, MIT cabling.
As I said, I've been listening to these for a couple of weeks and I know that some people love them and some people, ahem, F1, do not. I understand why in both cases. Now, I've been listening to the Quad 988 electrostats for a number of years now so going back to a dynamic loudspeaker is, in and of itself, a big change.
Things that I like about the 802's.....image as well as anything that I can think of. Recreate a soundstage as convincingly as anything that I've heard. Instruments have a weight and palpable feel that I don't recall before....essentially what I'm getting at is that, for lack of a better term, they present an almost 3D soundstage. I have a recording of Amazing Grace that is just a soprano sax and a pipe organ in a downtown church that is one of my all time favorite recordings....the 802's give me more of a 'being there' feeling than I recall with any other loudspeaker. The Quads more transparent for sure but the 802's give the heft of the organ and the lightness of the sax a more real feeling....if any of that makes sense. It recreates the scale of a symphony as well, with the exception of the Carver Amazings, as any speaker I can think of. The image is not SDA wide but within the boundaries of the speakers....it's awesome.
Ok, all of those good things come with one caveat. One HUGE caveat. Well recorded material. So, let's get to the things that I'm not so crazy about.
Volume. I read someplace that every recording has a certain volume that it needs to be played at....I've found that with the 802's you need to find that volume. If it's too low, everything collapses....but once you find that volume: all is right with the world. The 802's aren't lease breakers in the bass department. Now, the bass is as solid and well defined as any speaker I've heard. The AR9's, big SDA's and obviously Carvers go much much lower, but I'll give the nod in definition to the 802's. The Quads have the definition but not the weight....but for a speaker of it's size, I'd think that the bass would extend deeper than it does.
Now we get to my real gripe....and you can look at this as a positive, I guess. The 802's are ruthlessly revealing. RUTHLESS. I have a lot of well recorded material...and that material sounds glorious. I also have a lot of music that I like that is not so well recorded. It is virtually unlistenable. The Quads are musical.....I can listen to anything on them. Even things that I know aren't so well recorded, it's not a problem. The 802's? Not so much. Now, I know what you may be thinking....surface noise on LP's. Actually, that isn't a problem. The occaisonal pop or click is so far removed from the music, that's not an issue at all. Compression? Different story. Compressed, undynamic material sounds dull and lifeless. The gentleman that I bought them from summed it up nicely, they don't idle well. They run best when run hard.
So, what do I think? They aren't perfect to be sure but it's all about what you want in a loudspeaker. I'm super jazzed about having a great, dynamic loudspeaker in the mix for a change. It's been a very long time. Again, I can see why some folks love them and some folks don't. Me, I like them for what they are. They stay.
BDT
Associated gear: VPI Scoutmaster Table w/Dynavector 20 cart, SACDMods modified Sony SCD-555ES, Dodd one off phono stage, Dodd Battery Preamp, Sunfire amp, MIT cabling.
As I said, I've been listening to these for a couple of weeks and I know that some people love them and some people, ahem, F1, do not. I understand why in both cases. Now, I've been listening to the Quad 988 electrostats for a number of years now so going back to a dynamic loudspeaker is, in and of itself, a big change.
Things that I like about the 802's.....image as well as anything that I can think of. Recreate a soundstage as convincingly as anything that I've heard. Instruments have a weight and palpable feel that I don't recall before....essentially what I'm getting at is that, for lack of a better term, they present an almost 3D soundstage. I have a recording of Amazing Grace that is just a soprano sax and a pipe organ in a downtown church that is one of my all time favorite recordings....the 802's give me more of a 'being there' feeling than I recall with any other loudspeaker. The Quads more transparent for sure but the 802's give the heft of the organ and the lightness of the sax a more real feeling....if any of that makes sense. It recreates the scale of a symphony as well, with the exception of the Carver Amazings, as any speaker I can think of. The image is not SDA wide but within the boundaries of the speakers....it's awesome.
Ok, all of those good things come with one caveat. One HUGE caveat. Well recorded material. So, let's get to the things that I'm not so crazy about.
Volume. I read someplace that every recording has a certain volume that it needs to be played at....I've found that with the 802's you need to find that volume. If it's too low, everything collapses....but once you find that volume: all is right with the world. The 802's aren't lease breakers in the bass department. Now, the bass is as solid and well defined as any speaker I've heard. The AR9's, big SDA's and obviously Carvers go much much lower, but I'll give the nod in definition to the 802's. The Quads have the definition but not the weight....but for a speaker of it's size, I'd think that the bass would extend deeper than it does.
Now we get to my real gripe....and you can look at this as a positive, I guess. The 802's are ruthlessly revealing. RUTHLESS. I have a lot of well recorded material...and that material sounds glorious. I also have a lot of music that I like that is not so well recorded. It is virtually unlistenable. The Quads are musical.....I can listen to anything on them. Even things that I know aren't so well recorded, it's not a problem. The 802's? Not so much. Now, I know what you may be thinking....surface noise on LP's. Actually, that isn't a problem. The occaisonal pop or click is so far removed from the music, that's not an issue at all. Compression? Different story. Compressed, undynamic material sounds dull and lifeless. The gentleman that I bought them from summed it up nicely, they don't idle well. They run best when run hard.
So, what do I think? They aren't perfect to be sure but it's all about what you want in a loudspeaker. I'm super jazzed about having a great, dynamic loudspeaker in the mix for a change. It's been a very long time. Again, I can see why some folks love them and some folks don't. Me, I like them for what they are. They stay.
BDT
I plan for the future. - F1Nut
Post edited by TroyD on
Comments
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Nice write up and I agree wholeheartedly with what you have said. I just got some CDMNT1s and they share a lot of the same characteristics. They are bookies and lack in the low end so I use a sub. I also run them with my 110wpc Elite, so pretty normal power there. I have to increase the gain much more to achieve the same SPL, but at that certain level, they just open up and sound terrific.
Also agree about the quality of recording. My best of Steely Dan CD used to sound great with any combo, but with these, it sounds a bit dull and lifeless. Not terrible, but certainly not the same. Just got a Spyro Gyra CD, and wow! Sounds incredible. Certainly gives the 2Bs, which are powered by a 205wpc Parasound, a run for their money.
Mine are 8 ohm and 88db sensitivity so I think that is why I have to turn it up a bit compared with the more efficient bookies I have owned.
I think, in a nutshell, these speakers have zero coloration. You get what you get and when you introduce a great recording, with decent gear, the results are phenomenal. Mine are staying too for a while.
Also, If you ever decide to move them to HT duty, the CDMCNT would be a great match. 91db sensitivity and sounds great for movies. -
Nice write up Troy. I'd love to hear your setup. I just recently acquired a lower end model- the B & W DM604's. For the $ I paid, I am very happy with them. They are my new main front stage. A couple of surrounds need repaired due to previous owner cat mishap; yet, they still sound pretty amazing. The bass on these is a little muddy, but I think some spikes would go a long way to tighten that and focus the imaging better.2-ch System: Parasound P/LD 2000 pre, Parasound HCA-1000 amp, Parasound T/DQ Tuner, Phase Technology PC-100 Tower speakers, Technics SL-1600 Turntable, Denon 2910 SACD/CD player, Peachtree DAC iT and X1asynchorus USB converter, HSU VTF-3 subwoofer.
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Nice review!, "revealing" is how I remember those and the 801's with the 1's having a large full stage.2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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Nice write up and I agree wholeheartedly with what you have said. I just got some CDMNT1s and they share a lot of the same characteristics. They are bookies and lack in the low end so I use a sub. I also run them with my 110wpc Elite, so pretty normal power there. I have to increase the gain much more to achieve the same SPL, but at that certain level, they just open up and sound terrific.
Also agree about the quality of recording. My best of Steely Dan CD used to sound great with any combo, but with these, it sounds a bit dull and lifeless. Not terrible, but certainly not the same. Just got a Spyro Gyra CD, and wow! Sounds incredible. Certainly gives the 2Bs, which are powered by a 205wpc Parasound, a run for their money.
Mine are 8 ohm and 88db sensitivity so I think that is why I have to turn it up a bit compared with the more efficient bookies I have owned.
I think, in a nutshell, these speakers have zero coloration. You get what you get and when you introduce a great recording, with decent gear, the results are phenomenal. Mine are staying too for a while.
Also, If you ever decide to move them to HT duty, the CDMCNT would be a great match. 91db sensitivity and sounds great for movies.
I'm also running the CDM1NTs - and still enjoy them.
I'm a 'sparkle' type of guy I guess and I do run mine with a sub to fill out the bottom end. They throw a good soundstage and I like the midrange tonality.
I guess the rest of the components in my rig are making for a good matchup.
Congrats on the Matrix - I've 'heard' really good things about them - even better from reliable PF members!
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
Erik Tracy wrote: »I'm also running the CDM1NTs - and still enjoy them.
I'm a 'sparkle' type of guy I guess and I do run mine with a sub to fill out the bottom end. They throw a good soundstage and I like the midrange tonality.
I guess the rest of the components in my rig are making for a good matchup.
Congrats on the Matrix - I've 'heard' really good things about them - even better from reliable PF members!
Yes, killer mids and staging. I know they could use a little more juice, but I like using the "restorer" mode on the Elite. Decompresses CDs a bit for a fuller sound. These babies are very unforgiving, but sound good with a good source. -
Nice write-up. Glad you're happy with them. I've worked on a few of them, as well as re-coning several 802 woofers.Ok, I thought that I'd post my thoughts of the 'new' Beemers....I've been listening pretty intently for the past couple weeks If nothing else, it's got me off the dime and cleaned up the stereo room.
Associated gear: VPI Scoutmaster Table w/Dynavector 20 cart, SACDMods modified Sony SCD-555ES, Dodd one off phono stage, Dodd Battery Preamp, Sunfire amp, MIT cabling.
As I said, I've been listening to these for a couple of weeks and I know that some people love them and some people, ahem, F1, do not. I understand why in both cases. Now, I've been listening to the Quad 988 electrostats for a number of years now so going back to a dynamic loudspeaker is, in and of itself, a big change.
Things that I like about the 802's.....image as well as anything that I can think of. Recreate a soundstage as convincingly as anything that I've heard. Instruments have a weight and palpable feel that I don't recall before....essentially what I'm getting at is that, for lack of a better term, they present an almost 3D soundstage. I have a recording of Amazing Grace that is just a soprano sax and a pipe organ in a downtown church that is one of my all time favorite recordings....the 802's give me more of a 'being there' feeling than I recall with any other loudspeaker. The Quads more transparent for sure but the 802's give the heft of the organ and the lightness of the sax a more real feeling....if any of that makes sense. It recreates the scale of a symphony as well, with the exception of the Carver Amazings, as any speaker I can think of. The image is not SDA wide but within the boundaries of the speakers....it's awesome.
Ok, all of those good things come with one caveat. One HUGE caveat. Well recorded material. So, let's get to the things that I'm not so crazy about.
Volume. I read someplace that every recording has a certain volume that it needs to be played at....I've found that with the 802's you need to find that volume. If it's too low, everything collapses....but once you find that volume: all is right with the world. The 802's aren't lease breakers in the bass department. Now, the bass is as solid and well defined as any speaker I've heard. The AR9's, big SDA's and obviously Carvers go much much lower, but I'll give the nod in definition to the 802's. The Quads have the definition but not the weight....but for a speaker of it's size, I'd think that the bass would extend deeper than it does.
Now we get to my real gripe....and you can look at this as a positive, I guess. The 802's are ruthlessly revealing. RUTHLESS. I have a lot of well recorded material...and that material sounds glorious. I also have a lot of music that I like that is not so well recorded. It is virtually unlistenable. The Quads are musical.....I can listen to anything on them. Even things that I know aren't so well recorded, it's not a problem. The 802's? Not so much. Now, I know what you may be thinking....surface noise on LP's. Actually, that isn't a problem. The occaisonal pop or click is so far removed from the music, that's not an issue at all. Compression? Different story. Compressed, undynamic material sounds dull and lifeless. The gentleman that I bought them from summed it up nicely, they don't idle well. They run best when run hard.
So, what do I think? They aren't perfect to be sure but it's all about what you want in a loudspeaker. I'm super jazzed about having a great, dynamic loudspeaker in the mix for a change. It's been a very long time. Again, I can see why some folks love them and some folks don't. Me, I like them for what they are. They stay.
BDT
The crossovers are most likely all Bennic Caps, and Resistors. A mix of Metalized Polypropylenes, NP Electrolytics, and Sand-Cast Resistors. Bennic, who also makes Daytons MP caps, are not that musical, compared to Sonicaps or Clarity's higher end offerings, better quality resistors would help also.
It might be something to look into.Home Theater/2 Channel:
Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
dhsspeakerservice.com/ -
Yes, killer mids and staging. I know they could use a little more juice, but I like using the "restorer" mode on the Elite. Decompresses CDs a bit for a fuller sound. These babies are very unforgiving, but sound good with a good source.
The CDM1NTs (and all B&Ws reputedly) love the juice.
Yes, they can sound really nice at low levels, but they really wake up and can pump out some sonic goodness with the right integrated or amp behind them.
I'm using a MF A5 Int amp with gobs of power and ball squeezing low end control - and with a clean source CD, SACD, or LP I get some ear to ear grinning sonic goodness. I can go almost 'stupid loud' and they don't collapse/compress.
Bright source material can be a tad much - even for me, but at mid-volumes I love the depth the CDM1NTs can throw with that 'sparkle' on top.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
Thats absolutely beautiful set up there. Nice review on all of it too. Im just getting back into vinyl myself & thats one nice turntable. Cool dog too
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westmassguy wrote: »Nice write-up. Glad you're happy with them. I've worked on a few of them, as well as re-coning several 802 woofers.
The crossovers are most likely all Bennic Caps, and Resistors. A mix of Metalized Polypropylenes, NP Electrolytics, and Sand-Cast Resistors. Bennic, who also makes Daytons MP caps, are not that musical, compared to Sonicaps or Clarity's higher end offerings, better quality resistors would help also.
It might be something to look into.
Not a bad idea. Is there anyway to get more low end out of the cdmnt1s? -
I doubt it, not without redesigning the whole speaker. It's a 2 way bass reflex. I would imagine they designed it for the best bass response for the woofer and enclosure they used. Other than moving them closer to the back wall for re-enforcement, not much you can do.Not a bad idea. Is there anyway to get more low end out of the cdmnt1s?Home Theater/2 Channel:
Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
dhsspeakerservice.com/ -
Nice review Troy. I'm still bringing my ear plugs. :twisted:Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
