Squeezebox Touch - how does it compare to other digital sources

dragon1952

I know for a fact that my PC > SB Touch > CA 840C as standalone DAC provides better SQ than my Cambridge Audio 840C alone spinning discs, which is a pretty good feat. But I am always wondering how the Touch compares vs other solutions such as CAPS, Mac Mini, or one of the 3rd party network devices available. Some of the 3rd party solutions are ridiculously priced and I'm not about to pay 2-6K, but there are others like maybe the CuBox, Aune S1, Mac Mini, Auraliti or a CAPS build. Anyone out there that has moved from a Touch to some other solution that has reaped some benefit?

steveinaz

I think BlueFox (IIRC, Bryston) has a high-end file player?

EndersShadow

Thats kinda a hard to answer question because your in essence just using your Squeezebox for the following:

1: Networking capabilities
2: Interface
3: Remote

There are many devices that do just the above that cost less. Lots of folks liked the Squeezebox because it also had a decent DAC section so it was one less thing in the chain. It also techincally has a volume control as well so if you wanted you could use it as a pre if you were just using your Squeezebox. You are bypassing most of that with your setup (which isnt bad, just means your deeper invested in good sound :biggrin:) Most of the really good higher end players will do all that and add a better DAC section than your Cambridge Audio DAC, which is where the benefits are, one less item in the chain, and better quality parts.

tonyb

All depends on what you want to do and budget. You won't touch anything else comparable in the SB for the price or even double that price.

Many upscale players abound but are in the thousands. The key to better sound lies in the quality of the playback file, software, a good dac.

thsmith

Apple Airport Express has same DAC as SB and sounds great.

EndersShadow

tonyb wrote: »

All depends on what you want to do and budget. You won't touch anything else comparable in the SB for the price or even double that price.

Many upscale players abound but are in the thousands. The key to better sound lies in the quality of the playback file, software, a good dac.

I agree. You've got a good DAC and your chain isnt super long with un-needed components, so at this point like tony said, you are looking for the best software or file type for you.

dragon1952

tonyb wrote: »

All depends on what you want to do and budget. You won't touch anything else comparable in the SB for the price or even double that price.

Many upscale players abound but are in the thousands. The key to better sound lies in the quality of the playback file, software, a good dac.

This is basically the reassurance I'm after I guess. I just don't want the Touch (in the way I'm using it) limiting my SQ if there's a better option at $1000 or less used/new. Just wondering if anyone out there has moved from a Touch feeding the digital signal to something else and had a 'wow' moment or something :^ )

BTW, I'm using Logitech Media Server and FLAC with my library on an external USB HDD. Touch connected via ethernet.

EndersShadow

dragon1952 wrote: »

This is basically the reassurance I'm after I guess. I just don't want the Touch (in the way I'm using it) limiting my SQ if there's a better option at $1000 or less used/new. Just wondering if anyone out there has moved from a Touch feeding the digital signal to something else and had a 'wow' moment or something :^ )

BTW, I'm using Logitech Media Server and FLAC with my library on an external USB HDD. Touch connected via ethernet.

If your using optical out to your DAC then the limiting factor is actually the DAC not the Squeezebox assuming the Squeezebox has the same max bitrate as your DAC which I think they do. With digital the SQ is limited only by the A: Source file (cant get higher rez than it is by default) or B: Lowest bitrate able to be played/passed through your chain.

Your setup sounds about as good as it can get for what you have in it.

SCompRacer

I am currently using a SB Touch with a DIY dual mono external DAC with ESS Sabre DAC chips. At first I connected it via SPDIF coax out with BNC connector. (BNC is a true 75 Ohm where RCA connector is not). SQ depends on jitter from the source, added jitter from components and possible reflections from connections and the DAC chips ability to decode the SPDIF. SPDIF has data and **** embedded and must be decoded. An ESS Sabre DAC chip handles SPDIF in a way that doesn’t rely totally on the embedded clock and it sounded very, very good with coax out.

Then I modded my Touch to export I2S out and SQ was slightly better. I2S is the serial interface used in players and separates data from clock where SPDIF has clock and data embedded. However I2S requires special handling for long runs as it is designed for a short circuit path and your DAC has to have an input for it. But when done right I2S can result in slightly to so much better SQ over SPDIF, again depending on the DAC chip and how it decodes SPDIF.

I've been experimenting with USB to I2S but haven't finished assembling all the parts needed for it. (An isolation/reclocking board). For me going USB will require remote desktop on my tablet so I can control what is playing, versus just having the Logitech Android app on my tablet. Currently for my my USB to DAC I use a laptop with a 1TB external USB drive.

You could look at the USB to SPDIF converters that reclock before handing off to the DAC, but you would lose the Logitech software. Falconcry uses a Stello IIRC. Again, if you are using an ESS Sabre DAC you may not get a big bump up in SQ.

After that you have the quality of the DAC’s analog output. Some DAC’s and players do it better than others and better costs more. My better digital comes very close to my vinyl SQ now.

Just my opinion, but I prefer coax out over optical for two channel as optical can add jitter.

dragon1952

I'm using coax from Touch to DAC. Thanks for all the replies...I appreciate it.

jumpindick

good discussion. I am now building more knowledge on digital music world. Thanks guys.

dragon1952

I think I might be getting the 'player' and the 'server' mixed up a little for one thing. I'm using my 'working' PC as both music storage (via a USB attached drive) and server running the Logitech Media Server. About all I'm doing on the PC is web browsing. It's got a fast processor (i5 650 @ 3.2Ghz) and 6GB RAM. And really if I'm listening to my main system I'm not doing anything on the computer anyway, although I know there are lots of things running in the background, etc. All of this talk about separate boxes running the music server and containing the storage has me wondering if there would be any advantage in using something like that (like a Mac Mini, Vortexbox, NAS, 3rd party device) vs running it off of a non-dedicated PC that's doing other stuff. Additionally, there's the possibility in connecting some of these devices directly to a DAC via USB and getting rid of the SB in the path. That would be difficult (adding more things to the path that might affect SQ) to do now because my PC is around 20 ft of cabling away from my DAC. But I'm really only concerned with the solution for the best possible SQ, screw convenience or cool features or whatever else.
So 1) would a separate box for server and storage alone offer any SQ advantage over my PC. I'm thinking possibly not but maybe? 2) combination of a separate box connected directly to a DAC with a decent USB interface (gets rid of SB and PC)? 3) or is the SB Touch better than I'm giving it credit for and likely not any worse than any of those other methods the way I currently have it connected?
PC > SB over ethernet > coax to DAC

falconcry72

SCompRacer wrote: »

...You could look at the USB to SPDIF converters that reclock before handing off to the DAC, but you would lose the Logitech software. Falconcry uses a Stello IIRC...

You do recall correctly! A Stello U3, to be exact. I've tried several different USB > SPDIF converters, and while the sonic differences are more subtle than the differences between DACs, the differences are still noticeable. I'm lovin' the U3!

...For me going USB will require remote desktop on my tablet so I can control what is playing, versus just having the Logitech Android app on my tablet...

A lot of media players have apps to control them. I use foobar2000 and I have the app on both my android smartphone and on my ipad. I believe jriver has a good app as well.


Sometimes I use my phone/tablet, but most of the time I use the PC itself, since I can scroll through the music, make playlists, look at other related documents etc. much faster with a mouse and keyboard than I can with a phone.

My setup is like this: The actual desktop box is located right next to all my gear so I can use short cables between it and the Stello and between the Stello and my DAC... but my computer DESK, including my monitor, keyboard, and mouse, is on the other side of the room right next to my main listening spot.

I'll put some pics up this evening.

dragon1952

How do you connect your mouse, KB and monitor?

falconcry72

dragon1952 wrote: »

How do you connect your mouse, KB and monitor?

Monitor: 30' DVI cable to the desk. Never had a hiccup in 2 years of use like this.

Keyboard and Mouse: 30' USB extension cable for the wireless dongle to the desk. Haven't had a hiccup in 2 years of use like this.

EndersShadow

falconcry72 wrote: »

Monitor: 30' DVI cable to the desk. Never had a hiccup in 2 years of use like this.

Keyboard and Mouse: 30' USB extension cable for the wireless dongle to the desk. Haven't had a hiccup in 2 years of use like this.

Falcon your setup is about to mimic mine. I will be using a 10 foot or longer HDMI cable for my computer to my Monitor, and a 10 foot or longer DVI cable for the Denon 3910 SACD player I have to connect that to my computer monitor. Then like you I can keep my computer next to my 2 channel rack and whenever I finally get a nice DAC for that setup when it comes time to get a USB cord I can get a short one and the same with interconnects, which allows me to maybe get something higher quality due to how little length I need.

SCompRacer

dragon1952 wrote: »

I think I might be getting the 'player' and the 'server' mixed up a little for one thing. I'm using my 'working' PC as both music storage (via a USB attached drive) and server running the Logitech Media Server.

I'm doing similar; my desktop has an internal 1TB music drive with the Logitech software. If it didn't do anything else it could be called a 'dedicated' server. Honestly if you are not having problems now (noise, interrupts) it is hard to say you will have it better SQ going another route. I was in New York recently at Ed Savinon the SRT kings place. He uses a vortexbox box with Logitech software to feed his DAC. Wonderful sound. His vortexbox is nothing more than an older business PC with big storage. To rip he sticks the CD in and it does the tagging/album art. Great for folks that are not anal about initial tagging and selecting the best art.

falconcry72 wrote: »

You do recall correctly! A Stello U3, to be exact. I've tried several different USB > SPDIF converters, and while the sonic differences are more subtle than the differences between DACs, the differences are still noticeable. I'm lovin' the U3!

I’d put my money on the reclocking that does it.

I use foobar on my laptop fed by an external drive when I use the USB to I2S module, but I prefer the remote control (tablet, cell phone, etc). If I go USB based I’ll use an old PC in the basement near the air compressor for my air bearing tonearm and route through the same wall plate as the air line with push lock fitting.

Speaking of isolation, my USB to I2S module has none (ground connected to laptop but not powered by laptop through USB cable) but it does reclock. I get zero noise when playing music. No noise at full volume with no music playing. I’ve been too busy to finish the isolation and reclock board. SMD devices make it hard for my old eyes. It will use the much better clock in my DAC.

Some pics of I2S out of the Touch. A LVDS (low-voltage differential signaling) Teleporter sends the signal over long distances while preserving the clock signal. Another Teleporter module in the DAC receives. I am told it will go 100 feet although I am using a one meter Cat5 cable. I also modded a Denon 3910 to export I2S (CD) and DSD (SACD). My DAC has input for raw DSD, so I am not playing DSD dithered down to PCM. My USB to I2S module will also play DSD.

EndersShadow

falconcry72 wrote: »

I'll put some pics up this evening.

Dragon, here are a couple of Falcon's setup I found in one of his threads:





Doesnt show his desk, but gives you an idea how the computer looks next to the rack, although IIRC this PC got killed by lightning so he has a new one but assuming placement is the same

falconcry72

EndersShadow wrote: »

Falcon your setup is about to mimic mine. I will be using a 10 foot or longer HDMI cable for my computer to my Monitor, and a 10 foot or longer DVI cable for the Denon 3910 SACD player I have to connect that to my computer monitor. Then like you I can keep my computer next to my 2 channel rack and whenever I finally get a nice DAC for that setup when it comes time to get a USB cord I can get a short one and the same with interconnects, which allows me to maybe get something higher quality due to how little length I need.

Oh I also have a 50' HDMI cable that goes from that same PC to my Pre/Pro in my HT setup in the next room. I'm getting a lot of mileage out of that PC! I could play all my media wirelessly in both setups if I wanted... but I just like clicking through stuff with a mouse.

falconcry72

EndersShadow wrote: »

Dragon, here are a couple of Falcon's setup I found in one of his threads:

Doesnt show his desk, but gives you an idea how the computer looks next to the rack, although IIRC this PC got killed by lightning so he has a new one but assuming placement is the same

Thanks for diggin' those up! Yep, that PC is toast, but the new one is in the same spot. The black cords on the far left of the bottom pic are the DVI and USB cables that go to my desk.

In the time since those pics were taken I've changed out the PC, Power Conditioner, USB converter, speaker cables, IC's, and speakers. :biggrin:

EndersShadow

falconcry72 wrote: »

Oh I also have a 50' HDMI cable that goes from that same PC to my Pre/Pro in my HT setup in the next room. I'm getting a lot of mileage out of that PC! I could play all my media wirelessly in both setups if I wanted... but I just like clicking through stuff with a mouse.

Yeah, I am looking at getting a streaming device for downstairs as I am getting into ripping blu-rays and dvd's now to my main system and that way I can access both them, and also my FLAC downstairs w/ my Harmony one I have.

I also debate at a later date building a cheapy Mini-ITX computer to stream instead of a network player as I like the XBMC interface. I can use my laptop for that now and its not too much of a hassle besides the cords being out while I connect it via Ethernet, power and then HDMI to my AVR.

falconcry72

EndersShadow wrote: »

Yeah, I am looking at getting a streaming device for downstairs as I am getting into ripping blu-rays and dvd's now to my main system and that way I can access both them, and also my FLAC downstairs w/ my Harmony one I have.

I also debate at a later date building a cheapy Mini-ITX computer to stream instead of a network player as I like the XBMC interface. I can use my laptop for that now and its not too much of a hassle besides the cords being out while I connect it via Ethernet, power and then HDMI to my AVR.

yea I'm lucky now that the space I'm in allows (1) PC to be physically connected to both of my main systems. When I end up getting a bigger place, I'll stream with the Western Digital TVLive or something similar. Also, most new TV's and bluray players have USB inputs that will play MKV's and other 1080p video files as well as FLAC and other audio files. I do that sometimes with a 2TB external hard drive and it works great... plus you don't have to rely on your wireless network. It;s good to have that option in case your wireless goes down or something. Video and audio quality is great on 1080p uncompressed rips going USB into both my bluray or TV.

EndersShadow

falconcry72 wrote: »

yea I'm lucky now that the space I'm in allows (1) PC to be physically connected to both of my main systems. When I end up getting a bigger place, I'll stream with the Western Digital TVLive or something similar.

Yeah I looked at one of those to but I am not super familiar with the interface hence wanting to go with XBMC. That said I may get a streaming device now and then build a HTPC later since its a bit more expensive.

falconcry72 wrote: »

Also, most new TV's and bluray players have USB inputs that will play MKV's and other 1080p video files as well as FLAC and other audio files. I do that sometimes with a 2TB external hard drive and it works great... plus you don't have to rely on your wireless network. It;s good to have that option in case your wireless goes down or something. Video and audio quality is great on 1080p uncompressed rips going USB into both my bluray or TV.

Oh trust me, as a IT guy, I am NEVER wireless. I am hardwired all the way . I plan on building a NAS server to store everything and then be able to access that from all my different systems.

pearsall001

Sonos music system with a good DAC & call it a day.

dragon1952

pearsall001 wrote: »

Sonos music system with a good DAC & call it a day.

Probably a wash vs the SB Touch, but either way you might be able to pair with good DAC and call it a day.

heiney9

dragon1952 wrote: »

Probably a wash vs the SB Touch, but either way you might be able to pair with good DAC and call it a day.

+1000. Definitely a wash.

agfrost

SCompRacer wrote: »

SPDIF has data and **** embedded

Rich that has to be the most hilarious typo I've seen in a year! I won't go so far as to say it was a Freudian slip. :twisted:

I know your post was full of hard-won information that you've learned in your digital voyage, but I lost my ability to concentrate right after reading that sentence! :cheesygrin:

dragon1952

Ha ha...yeah I saw that earlier and declined to comment. As for the Freudian slip I guess you could say he likes his digital a little too much :^ )

SCompRacer

agfrost wrote: »

Rich that has to be the most hilarious typo I've seen in a year! I won't go so far as to say it was a Freudian slip. :twisted:

I know your post was full of hard-won information that you've learned in your digital voyage, but I lost my ability to concentrate right after reading that sentence! :cheesygrin:

Yeah I caught that too late to change. What was I thinking of? Might have been that cell phone pic about beware of autocomplete I posted the other day. The one where I texted back to the wife "I have your bottle of White Zinfandel" but autocomplete changed it to "White infidel." The blacked out part above that mentioned what would happen with us if she drank a bottle of White Zinfandel.:cheesygrin:

I sent a PM to the mods about it. First jon s who is listed as a mod at bottom of page next to Patrcik C, but he said he ain't no mod. Then I tried Patrick.

EndersShadow

SCompRacer wrote: »

Yeah I caught that too late to change. What was I thinking of? Might have been that cell phone pic about beware of autocomplete I posted the other day. The one where I texted back to the wife "I have your bottle of White Zinfandel" but autocomplete changed it to "White infidel." The blacked out part above that mentioned what would happen with us if she drank a bottle of White Zinfandel.:cheesygrin:

I sent a PM to the mods about it. First jon s who is listed as a mod at bottom of page next to Patrcik C, but he said he ain't no mod. Then I tried Patrick.

I think its Jon_S, not jon s (the underscore is the diff I believe)

SCompRacer

EndersShadow wrote: »

I think its Jon_S, not jon s (the underscore is the diff I believe)

You are probably right. I clicked on the name at bottom of page where it says moderators (jon s lower case) so it looks like that could use some fixin. Sorry, fixing.:cheesygrin: