12/2 Wire Choices

Tornado Red

I'm about to run 2 dedicated 20 amp circuits to my HT set up. I've been looking and pricing 12/2 wire and I've found Yellow Jacket 12/2 and Red Jacket 12/2. I haven't been able to find a difference, other than the Red is more expensive. I'm in Canada, don't know if those colours transpose to the U.S. or not. One site suggested the Red was used for running 220v, but I only saw that reference once. Any thoughts? Thanks...

F1nut

I would suggest using 12/2 metal clad (MC) flexible conduit. The aluminum jacket is a great shield.

Speedskater

Are we talking permanent in-wall cable like Romex®(NM)Non-Metallic?
or extension cord like, for in-room?

Aluminum jacket only shields well at higher radio frequencies. Mild steel works better at lower frequencies.

Different brands of Metal Clad (MC) flexible conduit shield differently.

See:
Addendum to Power Distribution White Paper (87 KB)
http://www.middleatlantic.com/pdf/Power%20Paper%20Addendum.pdf

Power Distribution and Grounding of Audio, Video and Telecommunications Equipment White Paper (986 KB)
http://www.middleatlantic.com/power.htm

Tornado Red

Yes, permanent Romex in-wall. Thanks for the tips...

bmor

Here are some links explaining the current situation with nmd90 house wiring in Canada. Had to look it up, been a while since I had anything to do with house wiring. It was all white back then with red for 240V circuits, if desired.

http://www.coppercanada.ca/pdfs/CCMagazinePDFs/E151b.pdf

http://www.ecswire.com/products/specs/nmd90

Tornado Red

bmor wrote: »

Here are some links explaining the current situation with nmd90 house wiring in Canada. Had to look it up, been a while since I had anything to do with house wiring. It was all white back then with red for 240V circuits, if desired.

http://www.coppercanada.ca/pdfs/CCMagazinePDFs/E151b.pdf

http://www.ecswire.com/products/specs/nmd90

Thanks, I see the answer to my original question in your second link. The red jacket is for 240v where there is no neutral used (I'm thinking like maybe my electric hot water heater) and should not be used for 110.

Speedskater

Even though it look's to be 'red' they think that it's 'orange' and it's 10 AWG. 10AWG is often used for long 120V runs (less voltage drop) and bigger hi-fi systems.

paradiddle

Bump

leftwinger57

In Jersey all the Romex as jacketed 3 wire grounded construction grade wire. SJ (soft jacketed ) used mainly for homemade extension cords w/ male and female ends to it. Romex is run fom either outlet to outlet or switch to device or switch to outlet ie.. switched outlet.Construction grade is not needed but lower the gauge is more desireable as in Carole 14/2, 14/4 as in wall speaker wire.

Tornado Red

Thanks for everyone's wiring insight on CP, F1 in particular. I've been way underpowered for the equipment I've bought over the last 8 months or so (DSW550pro sub, 400 watt plasma display, XPA 3 Emo amp and Pioneer SC-61 AVR plus peripherals all on one 15 amp circuit). Decided to go with what's in the photo. 2 dedicated 20 amp circuits, with AC90 outer shielded 12/2 wire. Putting in a SyCom 120/240-T2 whole panel surge protector for lightning strikes/utility company screw ups. The two 20 amp circuits will feed 2 Leviton 5380-W 20 amp surge protected outlets. Hoping to have the surge protection here to pick up local spikes from compressors, motors etc in house. For now, the sub and display will be on one, the amp and AVR on the other with peripherals already surge protected and staying on the 15 amp line. Just need to get off my butt tomorrow and get started!
Attachment not found.

Systems

The two 20 amp circuits

Don't put the breakers on the same side of the box, one on each side is the way to fly.

Tornado Red

pepster wrote: »

Don't put the breakers on the same side of the box, one on each side is the way to fly.

Thanks Pep, Jesse mentioned that was a good idea...

CoolJazz

There is significant benefit for free from evening the load in a panel. Now with things switching on and off, it's an averaging game. But you can typically load such that you get a reasonable balance and lower current and noise on the neutral.

Any imbalance on the neutral will be part of what you're presenting to your equipment if you run two circuits and they aren't on the same phase/leg. The house is fed from a balanced circuit and the closer the balance, the less noise on that center, the neutral.

I went back through my home panel and was able to get the heavy load noisy stuff over on one side and the less noisy on the side with my dedicated listening room run. With minor work on balancing in the past, I've gotten AC line distortion for a major rack system down to around 2.5% THD. That gives equipment a good place to start from.

Remember that tight connections are important and that heavy draw items in particular tend to cause the screws and lugs to loosen over time from the slight vibration of the 60 cycles, so going back every couple years and re-tensioning is good.

CJ

Tornado Red

CoolJazz wrote: »

There is significant benefit for free from evening the load in a panel. Now with things switching on and off, it's an averaging game. But you can typically load such that you get a reasonable balance and lower current and noise on the neutral.

Any imbalance on the neutral will be part of what you're presenting to your equipment if you run two circuits and they aren't on the same phase/leg. The house is fed from a balanced circuit and the closer the balance, the less noise on that center, the neutral.

I went back through my home panel and was able to get the heavy load noisy stuff over on one side and the less noisy on the side with my dedicated listening room run. With minor work on balancing in the past, I've gotten AC line distortion for a major rack system down to around 2.5% THD. That gives equipment a good place to start from.

Remember that tight connections are important and that heavy draw items in particular tend to cause the screws and lugs to loosen over time from the slight vibration of the 60 cycles, so going back every couple years and re-tensioning is good.

CJ

Hmmm, interesting. I do have a "noisy" side of the panel, but that would preclude me from splitting up my 2 new circuits, one to each side. What to do.... but looking at the gear I have (I'm not into big money here) I run the risk of over thinking this I believe. I'll definitely go with...whatever strikes me when I reach the panel

Speedskater

We want all the audio equipment on the same pole or leg (aka phase) of the AC power line. This is because the leakage current and noise will be less from unit to unit when they are all connected to the same polarity AC power.

Anyway the circuit breaker box (panel board) have the legs zig-zag down the board, something like this:

A B
B A
A B
B A
A B
B A

So when you hook-up your two circuits, you want to skip one breaker.

**************************************************

For huge systems with thousands of power amplifier watts, then a MWBC (Multi-Wire Branch Circuit) using both legs can be a good idea.

disneyjoe7

If you're going to do it why not use 10/2?

And Speed is correct 120vac A and 120vac B is under the each other look at a 240vac breaker.

Tornado Red

Well, I did consider 10/2, but decided I didn't need 30 amp capable wire running from a 20 amp breaker to a 20 amp wall outlet. I know some people say otherwise but... just a personal decision I guess. You need to know that I'm OLD and though I may change speakers and other things down the road, my power requirements won't ever go beyond what I'm installing now. So in 5 years you can pull up this post and say "WTF were you saying 5 years ago old man??" as I tear my basement apart again...:biggrin:

disneyjoe7

Using 10g vs 12g wire the voltage loss will be less given the same amp draw / load.

CoolJazz

I would suggest that normally the final voltage value delivered isn't the end game, it's the impedance of what is presented under load. IE...the stiffness of it. Modulating the supply voltage can't lead to anything good!

I can hear the thought (ok of some anyway) that "I'll never listen loud enough to need that full amperage". But the stiffness is key for the audio sonic performance along with total amp output power, when that is what's desired.

Lower impedance also will help to control HF noise, like almost everybody has on their power from the switcher supplies in today's electronics. Sure, other devices can help control, but it's always good to start from as good a foundation as you can. And that's what power is....the foundation.

Going with the greater guage, while doing the rewire, should be a good value sonically for the slight cost difference.

CJ

PS....gosh it's easy to spend somebody else's money.

Systems

Tornado Red wrote: »

I'm about to run 2 dedicated 20 amp circuits to my HT set up. I've been looking and pricing 12/2 wire and I've found Yellow Jacket 12/2 and Red Jacket 12/2. I haven't been able to find a difference, other than the Red is more expensive. I'm in Canada, don't know if those colours transpose to the U.S. or not. One site suggested the Red was used for running 220v, but I only saw that reference once. Any thoughts? Thanks...

I would just look to all the posts as opinions posted here, as good starting points, good info.
A good beginning to research so you know what you are after.

But it is not the best advice to use this info for the actual wiring itself until you consult with an electrician.
Firstly no body offering this info is fully aware of your electrical system, health/status.
Secondly, taking advice for fact involving electricity, on a public forum with people chiming in with different scenarios, and the "heres why" to back it up, is probably not the best idea to take for fact.

Consulting a certified electrician is however a no-brainer recommendation.

Speedskater

As CoolJazz wrote a low source impedance (or stiffness) of your AC power line at the wall outlet and power conditioner receptacle is important. It safe and not all that difficult to measure. It does require a Kill-a-Watt type meter though.

Tornado Red

pepster wrote: »

I would just look to all the posts as opinions posted here, as good starting points, good info.
A good beginning to research so you know what you are after.

But it is not the best advice to use this info for the actual wiring itself until you consult with an electrician.
Firstly no body offering this info is fully aware of your electrical system, health/status.
Secondly, taking advice for fact involving electricity, on a public forum with people chiming in with different scenarios, and the "heres why" to back it up, is probably not the best idea to take for fact.

Consulting a certified electrician is however a no-brainer recommendation.

Always good advice, and I have. There are differing opinions on wire choice, breaker/panel application, outlets, conditioners and the list goes on.... Like many things audio/video, there almost as many opinions as there are devices, my motto is take what you need from the comments and leave the rest. Having said that, I appreciate every one of the postings, many make me think outside the box a little, and many put a different spin on something I had already thought of. Never too old to learn, that's why I started this thread, I knew I'd pick up a lot from you folks.:idea:

Systems

I know nothing about Canada.

Will the work have to be inspected?

Tornado Red

pepster wrote: »

I know nothing about Canada.

Will the work have to be inspected?

What work? I suspect it's not too different than the U.S. in that regard. I have a mechanical back ground and a friend who's an electrician. I've passed what I'm doing by him, and he's kosher with it. I do know my limitations, and this is pretty straight forward, I wouldn't attempt it if I weren't comfortable. My biggest concern was the whole house surge protector, which needs to connect to existing 220v in the panel, he and I got together for a plan on that one.

Systems

What work?

That woke me up!

Sorry Red, I am now on the same page.
I had thought at some point you decided to change your panel out.
Its been along day.:redface:

Tornado Red

pepster wrote: »

That woke me up!

Sorry Red, I am now on the same page.
I had thought at some point you decided to change your panel out.
Its been along day.:redface:

I hear ya. Had my son drop by last evening and help me get my display out of the way, hope to get most of the work done today.

Tornado Red

Finished this last week, just thought I'd make a couple observations after a few evening's worth of listening. Seems to be more of an "ease" to things and I'd say a better separation on 5.1 stuff. All very subtle though. Biggest change I've noticed (that I hadn't anticipated) was how "black" things are now. I hadn't realized how much interference the power supply was causing, till it is wasn't there anymore. Any background noise I detected before I'd automatically blame on the source, nice to find I was wrong on a lot of those. Thanks to all for your tips and suggestions :cheesygrin:
Bill