Bi-Amp or not?

dkoutnik
dkoutnik Posts: 6
edited March 2013 in Basic Hookup/Wiring Questions
I recently purchased a pair of the LSIM 705 towers, im currently running a Denon AVR-2312 receiver that has discreet amplifiers (7) total, I did also do my system the justice of buying solid core power cables, and a power conditioner. Currently I'm using Audioquest g2 speaker wire that i had terminated with banana plugs, but will soon be upgrading to some better stuff. So, now to the question should i Bi-Amp these speakers or just keep it jumped until i get a better amp, thoughts and suggestions would be helpful! Thanks!
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited March 2013
    Ok, here we go again. You cannot bi-amp with an AVR, so forget about it. Replace the stock jumpers with high quality speaker cable, sit back and enjoy.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,981
    edited March 2013
    Polly want a cracker ? lol !!
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  • dkoutnik
    dkoutnik Posts: 6
    edited March 2013
    F1nut wrote: »
    Ok, here we go again. You cannot bi-amp with an AVR, so forget about it. Replace the stock jumpers with high quality speaker cable, sit back and enjoy.

    http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/Product/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?Catid=HomeTheatre&SubId=AVReceivers&ProductId=AVR2312

    Your 100% sure on that? Denon's website says different..
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  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,652
    edited March 2013
    OK, first, I will address the "discreet amplifier" portion.
    The 2312 has individual amplifier sections (boards if you will). But that's as far as the "discreet power" goes. You will notice that it simply says "discreet power" and not "discreet power supplies"? That is because they share the same power supply. This makes it technically impossible to bi-amp using an AVR. As loads increase (adding speakers), the power being sent to each channel decreases. The AVR-2312's power ratings are with 2 channels driven at 6 and 4 ohms. Your speakers are an 8 ohm speaker which means that the amount of power is even further reduced.
    Ultimately, you are looking at the neighborhood of 80-90wpc at 8 ohms with all channels being driven...most likely less.

    Now let's address what true active bi-amping is.
    You will need seperate high pass and low pass amplifiers, an active crossover network and to remove the passive crossover from the equation.
    Simply connecting both sets of binding posts to seperate amplifiers only accomplishes half of this. The crossover inside the cabinet is still part of the equation.
    Here is the concept in illustration form:
    biamp-f1.gif

    "Do I need to disconnect the passive crossover in my speakers?"
    The answer is ... Yes, otherwise you are not really biamping at all.

    Passive biamping (where two amplifiers are used in a bi-wiring connection) is, IMHO, a waste of money. Although there may be some moderate sonic benefits, they are not worth the expense of the extra amplifier. (And to promperly actively or passively bi-amp, you *will* need seperate amps)
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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  • dkoutnik
    dkoutnik Posts: 6
    edited March 2013
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    OK, first, I will address the "discreet amplifier" portion.
    The 2312 has individual amplifier sections (boards if you will). But that's as far as the "discreet power" goes. You will notice that it simply says "discreet power" and not "discreet power supplies"? That is because they share the same power supply. This makes it technically impossible to bi-amp using an AVR. As loads increase (adding speakers), the power being sent to each channel decreases. The AVR-2312's power ratings are with 2 channels driven at 6 and 4 ohms. Your speakers are an 8 ohm speaker which means that the amount of power is even further reduced.
    Ultimately, you are looking at the neighborhood of 80-90wpc at 8 ohms with all channels being driven...most likely less.

    Now let's address what true active bi-amping is.
    You will need seperate high pass and low pass amplifiers, an active crossover network and to remove the passive crossover from the equation.
    Simply connecting both sets of binding posts to seperate amplifiers only accomplishes half of this. The crossover inside the cabinet is still part of the equation.
    Here is the concept in illustration form:
    biamp-f1.gif

    "Do I need to disconnect the passive crossover in my speakers?"
    The answer is ... Yes, otherwise you are not really biamping at all.

    Passive biamping (where two amplifiers are used in a bi-wiring connection) is, IMHO, a waste of money. Although there may be some moderate sonic benefits, they are not worth the expense of the extra amplifier. (And to promperly actively or passively bi-amp, you *will* need seperate amps)

    So, with that said, what would you suggest for an amplifier? Ive got access to just about anything i need through work, currently the speakers are in a home theater system i had (klipsch) but ive been mainly listening to music lately with very little TV viewing.. I'm using a Peach Tree DAC hooked up to my system currently and its helped calm down the harsh music so far, but i need more power to the speakers clearly to make them sound like they should.
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,302
    edited March 2013
    You may not like the sound that Klipsch offers, many don't like the horn drivers. Denon generally produces a warmer sound.

    In most cases Klipsch are one of the easier speaker lines to drive, IMHO you have a speaker your not happy with and an amp may not resolve the issue.
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • dkoutnik
    dkoutnik Posts: 6
    edited March 2013
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    You may not like the sound that Klipsch offers, many don't like the horn drivers. Denon generally produces a warmer sound.

    In most cases Klipsch are one of the easier speaker lines to drive, IMHO you have a speaker your not happy with and an amp may not resolve the issue.

    Let me try this again lol, i worded it completely wrong, I replaced my RF82's with the Polk LSIM705 speakers, and im looking to get some better sound out of the polks, im running a pro660 sub with the set-up currently and am running it as a 2.1 system b/c i dont want to drowned out the polk's with the horn tweeters..
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited March 2013
    dkoutnik wrote: »
    Your 100% sure on that?

    Without a doubt.
    So, with that said, what would you suggest for an amplifier? Ive got access to just about anything i need through work

    Ok, what do you have access to and how much do you want to spend?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,302
    edited March 2013
    Sorry my bad got caught up in post#6.

    Surprised you are having harshness from the 705's, as I have listened to the whole LSiM line several times and actually the 705's are my favorite.

    refer to what F1 asked

    Welcome to CP
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • dkoutnik
    dkoutnik Posts: 6
    edited March 2013
    I have access to Integra, Macintosh, Rotel, sony, and a few others, ive worked in the business for 2 years, but ive never dealt with "Higher End" just the simple denon, yamaha, HK, etc.. pricing isnt much of an issue, but i dont want to spend 20k or 10k on a macintosh system. looking to spend no more then 2500.00
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  • dkoutnik
    dkoutnik Posts: 6
    edited March 2013
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    Sorry my bad got caught up in post#6.

    Surprised you are having harshness from the 705's, as I have listened to the whole LSiM line several times and actually the 705's are my favorite.

    refer to what F1 asked

    Welcome to CP

    As far as harshness, the speakers are great with most of my music, but i also use some streaming services and thats typically where i have the DAC coming into play..
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited March 2013
    Ok, not on your list, but I'm going to recommend it anyway. Bel Canto and LSi M's go very well together. Add some MIT cables and you're in for a real treat.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • David7544
    David7544 Posts: 52
    " as loads increase(by adding more speakers) power( delivered) decreases"
    "you cannot bi-amp with an AVR"
    Both false. The spec for my Denon AVR X 1100-W reads:80 watts continuous rms per channel with all channels driven into 8 ohms from 20-20,000 khz. with 0.05 thd.
    You absolutely CAN bi- amp with an AVR. I bi amped my Rti a5 speakers using the front right and left and the surround back right and left amp outputs, just like the owners manual says, and the speakers sound awesome. Audibly better than with one amp driving each speaker. The amps actually deliver MORE power in this hookup because the individual drivers present a simpler lower load impedance.
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  • deronb1
    deronb1 Posts: 5,021
    You can bi-wire and bypass any jumpers altogether.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    David7544 wrote: »
    The spec for my Denon AVR X 1100-W reads:80 watts continuous rms per channel with all channels driven into 8 ohms from 20-20,000 khz. with 0.05 thd.
    You absolutely CAN bi- amp with an AVR. I bi amped my Rti a5 speakers using the front right and left and the surround back right and left amp outputs, just like the owners manual says, and the speakers sound awesome. Audibly better than with one amp driving each speaker. The amps actually deliver MORE power in this hookup because the individual drivers present a simpler lower load impedance.

    Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    At 18lbs. your AVR doesn't have a power supply capable of delivering 80wpc to 5 never mind 7 channels. H e l l, my CD/SACD players weigh more than that. Anyway, study the post by ZLTFUL above to see what bi-amping really is.

    Any improvement you are hearing is because you have removed the c r a p p y stock jumpers and would get the same result by simply replacing the jumpers with high quality cable.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Msabot1
    Msabot1 Posts: 2,098
    F1.....you can talk about this till you are blue in the face...yet some people never learn....like talking to a wall....Bel Canto is excellent gear...never heard it mentioned here before...Buddy owns some..swears by it...and I'm a believer...my next buys will be this line....very good match with LSim as you said...
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  • slk55amg
    slk55amg Posts: 305
    He means " Bi wire"
    Emotiva XPA5, Sony ES 5300,: Lsi 15,s LSIC, Monitor 70,s, ( side surrounds) FXI 3,s, (rear surrounds)Micropro4000, Velodyne DEQ 10, Sony 55inchXBR 930D Sony BDP 790 Bedroom rig SonyES 3200 RTIA1,s CSIA4 FXI3,s polk PSW 10 SONY 34inch XBR960:cool:SONY BDP550
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  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,465
    Hello,

    Yes you can bi-amp with an AVR but why? I have a Sony STR-DA5700ES AVR pushing RTi8's tried to bi-amp, did it sound any better? No! A friend was trying to sell me some RTi12 and said if I bi-amp my receiver could push them. I still have my RTi8's. The 5700ES is a very good 40lb AVR

    Funny F1nut said to remove the jumpers. when I took the bi-amp off I flattened the jumpers a bit and used silver audio solder (so I would try to bi-amp again). Sounds much better now.

    If you want to make the LSIM 705 sing you will need an amp. Emotiva XPA to start.
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
    Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
    Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
    Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    NO, you cannot bi-amp with an AVR, period.
    when I took the bi-amp off I flattened the jumpers a bit and used silver audio solder (so I would try to bi-amp again).

    Sorry, I'm not understanding what you did there.
    If you want to make the LSIM 705 sing you will need an amp.

    Agreed.
    Emotiva XPA to start.

    That would be a poor start.




    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,465
    edited November 2014
    RTI use a gold looking steel plate for a jumper. I noticed they were not making the best contact. So I used a little solder and a hammer to make them have the best contact.

    Emotiva is not the best but its better than trying to dive them speakers with an AVR. If they have the money then a parasound halo would do the trick
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
    Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
    Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
    Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    RTI use a gold looking steel plate for a jumper. I noticed they were not making the best contact. So I used a little solder and a hammer to make them have the best contact.

    Got it, thanks. Even better, dump the plates and replace with high quailty speaker cable.

    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,981
    Solder and a hammer ?? What ??
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,465
    Polk uses a piece of steel as a jumper on the RTi line. When I tried out bi-amp my RTi8 and my friends RTi12 I noticed the plate are not machined very well. They had a cup affect in the area around the post. I would take a picture but to ensure they are tight I solder them in. After a little engineering (hammered flat) they are now making perfect contact.
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
    Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
    Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
    Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
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  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,465
    http://s005.osstatic.net/s/polk/store/productimages/details/1055_cherry_c.jpg
    that's the steel plate going from the bottom post to the top. It's not machined very well
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
    Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
    Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
    Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
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  • voltz
    voltz Posts: 5,384
    edited November 2014
    43stluepuwm7.jpg
    You had me worried for a second that you soldered your binding post together or something LOL. now I see what you meant. but I would recommend getting rid of them completely and going with some jumpers instead as others have said.
    2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge

    HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited November 2014
    Who resurrected this old thread!
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 7,658
    The binding post jumper plates are not made of steel, they are gold plated nickel. Many RCA connectors use the same combination of materials.
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  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,465
    cfrizz wrote: »
    Who resurrected this old thread!

    sorry I did. I lurk around this blog for the past 8 years. I see people who want to bi-amp with an avr and have to toss in my two cents
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
    Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
    Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
    Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
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  • Top Dog
    Top Dog Posts: 4
    Per my post in the bi-wiring thread, I tried this yesterday, I think. Or is Yamaha fooling me in their instructions for my RX-V675? It is a fairly simple setting in the set-up menu.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,981
    When you bi-amp....you remove the those brass plated jumpers, not solder them in place. Just sayin'.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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