Polk SDA-CRS+ vs SDA-2B comparison --> winner is SDA-CRS+

Mystery

Polk SDA-CRS+ vs SDA-2B comparison --> winner is CRS+

Both have silver dome SL2000 tweeters.
I haven't opened them up so no idea what mid drivers they have.
CRS+ is pin/blade so from specifications of 1987, it should have Stereo Driver MW6503 and SDA Driver MW6511.
2B's are blade/blade so from specifications of b/b version of 1987, they should have the same MW6503 and MW6511.
That's a perfect match except PR and cabinet.
If CRS+ is from 1989, stereo driver is MW6510 with everything else same but that driver will have different mid range.
Even crossover looks same.

Amp: Pioneer SA-1040 (100wpc integrated non-switching amp).
Source: FM, Laptop, CD player.
CRS+'s are on top of 2B's.
Distance: 6 feet between speakers and 7 feet to listening position.

SDA-CRS+:
CRS+'s are louder at same volume than 2B's.
More musical, highs/mid have very slight metallic/nasal tone compared to 12B's but much better than 2B's.
CRS+ sound open/free/joyful and fuller overall than 2B's but still have little bit hollowness compared to 12B's.
Nasal vocalists are not that off. They do have metallic tone but still sound natural.
They don't sound dry/thin like 2B's but do have slight metallic tone probably due to SL2000 compared to 12B's SL2500.
Both SDA's have that hall/echo like enveloping sound compared to non-sda 12B's.

If 12B's are out of the picture, CRS+'s sound open/free compared to 2B's that sound slightly thin/dry.

No complain on lows. CRS+ are so tiny compared to 2B's but bass is amazing with that soft sub like thump.
2B's have deeper/more low bass but it's exact same bass sound on CRS+ as well, me likey.

However, SDA effect is amazingly better/more in CRS+'s than 2B's.
I played many tracks that have SDA effect, put some sections of song in loop to listen SDA effect on both.
SDA effect in CRS+ are more prounounced, farther to sides and back, wider, higher, overall more enveloping sound all around than 2B's.
For example, in few songs that have sound in left side to the ceiling in 2B's, that sound is in the left back side to the ceiling instead of just to side.
Similarly, right sound few feet wider in 2B's sound like they are way farther to right side in CRS+.
In some stereo sweep sound, 2B's sound they come up to my listening position and go to other side while CRS+ come all the way to back of my couch and go to other side.
Music is floating everywhere in CRS+'s.

SDA-2B:
You already have read 2B's vs 12B's but the difference here is that 2B's don't sound that different from CRS+ except that CRS+ don't have that much thinner/hollow sound.
Also, 2B's sound slightly recessed/veiled and constrained as if the singers are not singing to their fullest compared to CRS+'s.
Slightly dry and thin compared to CRS+ but they do have more/low/deeper bass.
Overall slightly darker/sad and cleaner sound than CRS+. (same will go from 12B's to CRS+'s)
Bass is one volume level up in 2B's than CRS+'s.
I think that more bass is changing the sound in 2B's by overwhelming mid range as CRS+'s have similar mid driver with less bass that brings more mid resulting to fuller sound.

******************************************

Listening to CRS+ doesn't feel like it's missing much. Ears don't struggle to find all music in a song.
2B's sometimes needs focussed ears to listen to some mid range sound.
When switching from 12B's to CRS+'s it's not a drastic change like switching from 12B's to 2B's.
12B's still have more mid resulting in more open, fuller sound and CRS+ sound slightly veiled/darker but not that much.
After first few minutes of switching from 12B's, CRS+'s start to sound very nice that I forget a need to switch to 12B's.
However, after first few minutes of switching from 12B's to 2B's, 2B's do start to sound better but still not as good as CRS+ and I change back to 12B's or CRS+'s.
2B's have big hole in mid range same as 10A's that CRS+'s almost don't have or very little if they have.

So to conclude, between CRS+'s and 2B's, CRS+'s are clear winner over 2B's.
2B's have deeper/better bass but everything else goes to CRS+'s.
All time hippop/rap listeners may prefer 2B's due to deeper bass.

I'm not deciding between 12B's and CRS+ yet as I'll be keeping both and I like both.

Those who have had both CRS+' and 2B's, chime in.
I read a thread (I forgot Tennman, Polkieman or Tophatjohny) where going from CRS+ to 2B was huge improvement and going from 2B to 1C was another improvement but for me, CRS+'s are improvement over 2B's unless of course bass is the only preference.:rolleyes:
*********c'est fini************

Test setup below: Both SDA's are few inches in front of everything.

zarrdoss

Nice writ up and review. The 2b was my introduction to SDA's so when I first got them going my jaw hit the floor. I never have heard any CRS but have had several opportunities to buy a pair. I did notice that mids tend to be a bit laid back on them and just about all SDA's for that matter when compared to other speakers even other same time era Polks.

DarqueKnight

Some suggestions:

1. Can you repeat the CRS+ and SDA 2B tests with only the speakers under evaluation in the room? All those speakers will cause sympathetic vibrations that can muddy the sound.

2. The CRS+'s are way too high, placing the tweeters far above your listening position. The tweeters should be close to ear height at your listening position. The original CRS+ stands were 26.5" high. I use 30" stands with my CRS+'s.

3. It appears that your SDA's are too far from the rear wall. SDA's are designed to be placed close to a rear wall. The rear firing passive radiator of the CRS+ usually requires closer placement to the rear wall than a larger SDA in the same room.

heiney9

I hope that pic isn't how you tested them. That is a horrible set-up for proper acoustics, simply dreadful. The larger speakers never had a chance!!

H9

gudnoyez

Does look a little cramped in that room. I can say that after I got my 2B's, I listened to them 3 months non stop, but after I was lucky enough to get the original CRS+ stands from Neil And set them up and its a toss up I like the sound of them both but they have room to breath. That space you got to test them in is to cramped, do you even get any of the SDA effect?

PolkieMan

Yea I only have 1C and 2.3tls but I thought the 2B were suppose to be pin/blade like the Crs+? If they were both pin blade then the only difference would be the cabinets and the PR right? So they would sound alike down to about 200hz when the larger cabinets would give the 2B (pin/blade) a slight advantage in bass?

TennMan

Here is what differences my 2Bs and CRS+ besides what you mention.

2Bs: 6503 stereo MW and 6511 dimensional MW
CRS+: 6510 stereo MW and 6511 dimensional MW

Both are pin/blade and use the same crossovers.

soundfreak1

Wish i was able to articulate my experince with the 2b's as well as ypu did, however i compaired them with my rta 12c's and felt it was no contest as the rta's smoked them imho.

Mystery

zarrdoss wrote: »

...I did notice that mids tend to be a bit laid back on them and just about all SDA's for that matter when compared to other speakers even other same time era Polks.

Yes they do except the big ones that I yet have to listen.
3.1TL's did have a lot of midrange.

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Some suggestions:
1. Can you repeat the CRS+ and SDA 2B tests with only the speakers under evaluation in the room? All those speakers will cause sympathetic vibrations that can muddy the sound.
2. The CRS+'s are way too high, placing the tweeters far above your listening position. The tweeters should be close to ear height at your listening position. The original CRS+ stands were 26.5" high. I use 30" stands with my CRS+'s.
3. It appears that your SDA's are too far from the rear wall. SDA's are designed to be placed close to a rear wall. The rear firing passive radiator of the CRS+ usually requires closer placement to the rear wall than a larger SDA in the same room.

Good suggestions DK.
1. No can do. Not enough space here to move all of them out of the way.
2. Yes, tweeters should be ear high but CRS+ sound better regardless of improper setup.
3. There are Boston A400 and JBL L100T behind the SDA's and 12B's so they are around 1.5 feet from wall but only few inches from those speakers.

heiney9 wrote: »

I hope that pic isn't how you tested them. That is a horrible set-up for proper acoustics, simply dreadful. The larger speakers never had a chance!!
H9

Yes, not enough space and not good setup. That's the reason to sell speakers.

gudnoyez wrote: »

...do you even get any of the SDA effect?

Yes, I mentioned that in my original post.

PolkieMan wrote: »

Yea I only have 1C and 2.3tls but I thought the 2B were suppose to be pin/blade like the Crs+?

I thought wood version of 2B's are supposed to be pin/blade as well but these are blade/blade.

TennMan wrote: »

Here is what differences my 2Bs and CRS+ besides what you mention.
2Bs: 6503 stereo MW and 6511 dimensional MW
CRS+: 6510 stereo MW and 6511 dimensional MW
Both are pin/blade and use the same crossovers.

I see. My 2B's are blade/blade.

soundfreak1 wrote: »

Wish i was able to articulate my experince with the 2b's as well as ypu did, however i compaired them with my rta 12c's and felt it was no contest as the rta's smoked them imho.

I had RTA-12C's and they did have good mids and very good sound.

*******************************
I am confident that given enough space and proper setup, 2B's SDA effect will be at least that of CRS+'s but I don't have space for perfect setup for 2B's.
However, proper setup will change/enhance their bass and SDA effect/imaging but I don't think it'll bring out more mids than what they have now. I still believe CRS+ will have much better mids than 2B's as it is.
Both/all my Polks may need upgrade but I'm not upgrading anything at this point until I trim my collection down a bit.
I really would have passed on 2B's even if they have sounded better than CRS+'s due to their size but they don't in my room that is good thing for me.

gudnoyez

I'am glad your having luck with those crs+s setting up that high up on top of the others before I got mine on stands and set up in a room by themseleves, that's when I really noticed the SDA effect before the stands it was only minimal on the effect if you like them now wait till you get them in room on thier own you will really be surprised.

audiocr381ve

I found almost the exact OPPOSITE with my modded 2B's and CRS+'s heh. Have fun!

F1nut

I own the 4.1TL (CRS+ pin/blade) and the 2BTL (pin/blade). Both are modified exactly the same way with all the usual suspects. Both have been set up properly and tested in the same room, using the same gear. The 4.1TL's are collecting dust, the 2BTL's are in use daily. Don't get me wrong, the 4.1TL's are damn nice speakers, but.

nspindel

F1nut wrote: »

I own the 4.1TL (CRS+ pin/blade) and the 2BTL (pin/blade). Both are modified exactly the same way with all the usual suspects. Both have been set up properly and tested in the same room, using the same gear. The 4.1TL's are collecting dust, the 2BTL's are in use daily. Don't get me wrong, the 4.1TL's are damn nice speakers, but.

4.1TL's collecting dust. Breaks my heart....

Mr. Bubbles

Thanks for the write up. I appologize if I missed some ifo in the thread. I didn't thoroughly read the entire thread. If I repeat something already mentioned, again I appologize.

I agree 100% with DK. The comparison is not truly accurate with the setup shown in the pictures. The 2B's will not give you proper sound for a few reasons; (don't get me wrong, I understand completely about working with what you have to work with.) Too far from back wall, though this will effect the CRS+ to a similar degree, other speaker directly beside these cabs will cause interaction to a greater degree than the sympatheic vibrations will to the CRS+ that are not directly beside them, At least one of the other speakers is in front of the 2B's and if I remember correctly you have stairs on the other side with rails along the stairs and landing. The open rails will be kin=der to the CRS+'s at the higher elevation that the wall of the stairs/landing. These things closing in on the 2B's will limit their dimensional effectiveness compared to the CRS+'s at the higher leve where they are more open to thier surroundings. The CRS+'s do seem to be a little high but in this case it propbably helps them in comparison the the 2B positioning. The CRS+'s have a some inherrant advantages and also in their positionijng here. The driver spacing is wider similar to the larger SRS versions. This suposedly creates a better dimensional effect. They also have the rear firing passive to couple with the rear wall to help with room gain for the low frequencies. The smaller cabinets will tend to load the drivers in such a way as to make them loader as you describe, in the midbass/ mid region.

For a proper comparison, move all speakers except for the ones you are teasting at that exact time into the kitchen/ bedroom, etc. (bring them back when done). Position each model with the drivers at simlar heights, and keep as many aspects identical to each as possible, except for finally adjusting exact placement for final listening as each model will probably like a slightly differnt positioning, though I wouldn't expect much with the limited area that you are working with.

Either way thanks for the write up and opinions. keep having fun.

Toolfan66

That room is a mess for any speaker vs speaker comparison.. Move the extra out of the way, set them up properly, then come back and tell us the CRS+'s are better then the 2B's..

I do agree with Mr Bubbles. Either way thanks for the write up and opinions. keep having fun.

TennMan

Thank you for doing the writeup. I enjoyed reading it and I appreciate you taking the time to do it. I won't be critical of your room setup because that has been covered. I realize you have to make do with what you have as far the room goes. I'm in the same situation. I only have room for one pair of speakers and I find myself with three. I'm going to have to get rid of at least one pair.

The title of your thread is "Polk SDA-CRS+ vs SDA-2B comparison --> winner is SDA-CRS+" but you seem to be using the 12Bs as a baseline for your testing. That's OK if the purpose of your test was to decide which speakers to keep and which ones to get rid of. If the purpose of your test was to do an honest comparison of the CRS+ and 2B SDAs I think you should have left out comments about how the 12Bs sound.

Just reading between the lines... I get the feeling that when you did the comparison your mind was already made up to keep the CRS+ and you were justifying (to yourself) why you should get rid of the 2Bs. There's nothing wrong with that. I will probably be doing the same thing very soon but I'm certain the 2Bs won't be going anywhere. :biggrin:

Mystery

Thanks for comments...

F1nut wrote: »

I own the 4.1TL (CRS+ pin/blade) and the 2BTL (pin/blade). Both are modified exactly the same way with all the usual suspects. Both have been set up properly and tested in the same room, using the same gear. The 4.1TL's are collecting dust, the 2BTL's are in use daily. Don't get me wrong, the 4.1TL's are damn nice speakers, but.

I believe crossover upgrade is due for the 2B's more than CRS+'s in my pairs.

Mr. Bubbles wrote: »

...These things closing in on the 2B's will limit their dimensional effectiveness compared to the CRS+'s at the higher leve where they are more open to thier surroundings. The CRS+'s do seem to be a little high but in this case it propbably helps them in comparison the the 2B positioning. The CRS+'s have a some inherrant advantages and also in their positionijng here...keep having fun.

Thanks.
Yes, I agree on position and setup of 2B's are not good and also agree that proper setup will definitely improve their SDA effect however I don't believe just proper setup will make their mid range better than CRS+ without crossover upgrade.
I've tried them both before in another wall (also not proper setup for both) but still the CRS+ has much more/better/forward mids and vocals. So regardless of where I put them, 2B's have less mids as of now.
Even though I am 100% sure crossover upgrade on both will result in similar sound except 2B's will have more bass, I have two issues with 2B's currently, too big, not better than CRS+. Even if they sounded better than CRS+ now, I still would consider selling them as you see how crammed my place is already. CRS+ can be put on top of another speaker (a no no) or just tucked in a closet easily if needed.

Toolfan66 wrote: »

That room is a mess for any speaker vs speaker comparison.. Move the extra out of the way, set them up properly, then come back and tell us the CRS+'s are better then the 2B's..
I do agree with Mr Bubbles. Either way thanks for the write up and opinions. keep having fun.

I believe you guys opinion so 2B's should be good if upgraded, setup properly but that can't happen here.
In fact, I may not have 2B's after today evening.
The whole length of that wall is less than 11 feet including TV/stand etc... so not much breathing room.
I'm not saying 2B's are bad. I enjoy listening to them but they do lack mids when compared to other speakers.
You've had both so if you say 2B's are way better, they should be.
There are few owners here who feel like 4.1TL's are better than 2B's.
In any case, both of them should sound good after upgrades and setup.

[QUOTE=TennMan;1895967
The title of your thread is "Polk SDA-CRS+ vs SDA-2B comparison --> winner is SDA-CRS+" but you seem to be using the 12Bs as a baseline for your testing. That's OK if the purpose of your test was to decide which speakers to keep and which ones to get rid of. If the purpose of your test was to do an honest comparison of the CRS+ and 2B SDAs I think you should have left out comments about how the 12Bs sound.
Just reading between the lines... I get the feeling that when you did the comparison your mind was already made up to keep the CRS+ and you were justifying (to yourself) why you should get rid of the 2Bs. There's nothing wrong with that. I will probably be doing the same thing very soon but I'm certain the 2Bs won't be going anywhere. :biggrin:[/QUOTE]

Well I covered 12B's in another thread but since all these are currently switchable for listening, I put that in the mix. I did comment just for 2B's vs CRS+ taking 12B's out of the picture in my original post in few places.
Yes, I need to have 2B's gone for their size but I'm not biased at all.
As I mentioned, I'd pass on 2B's even if they sound good but from my so so A/Bing, CRS+ come out ahead except on the bass where 2B's simply are way ahead.
It's fun but my limited space is limiting my fun here. :rolleyes:

naturallight

I have a set of 1C's, and i will be honest with you. If put MY 1C's in YOUR room the way you have the 2B's set up..they would sound like junk...period. The only reason the CRS probably work some what even tho there not at the right hight, is because at least they seem to have a somewhat clean shot at the back wall.
My 1C's in MY room set up right, have none of the problems you say you have with the 2B's.

Untill you clear out that whole back area of the room, and put the 2B's were they are supposed to be. You will never know what they really sound like.

Mystery

naturallight wrote: »

I have a set of 1C's, and i will be honest with you. If put MY 1C's in YOUR room the way you have the 2B's set up..they would sound like junk...period. The only reason the CRS probably work some what even tho there not at the right hight, is because at least they seem to have a somewhat clean shot at the back wall.
My 1C's in MY room set up right, have none of the problems you say you have with the 2B's.

Untill you clear out that whole back area of the room, and put the 2B's were they are supposed to be. You will never know what they really sound like.

Educate me here, doesn't the back wall distance affect bass and imaging only and not mids/highs?
I've tried these both pairs right against wall and a foot out of the wall without anything in the back in another part of living room and mid range/vocals still are forward/better/more/open in CRS+.

1C's are completely different. They have more mid drivers and I believe they'll not lack mids.

I agree on space, I had 3.1TL's in this room before and they sounded over crowded.

nspindel

One thing that should be obvious to the OP right now is that these sorts of comparisons aren't as easy to do as you might think. Not only are you dealing with issues of room setup, but if you haven't redone the crossovers then it really is an apples to oranges comparison. You don't know the conditions that those speakers were kept in, nor do you know anything about how much either pair was used during their lifetime before you owned them. So the crossovers can be in completely different states as far as the degradation of the caps. To do your comparison right, you really need to bring the crossovers of both pairs to an equal state, break them in similarly, ensure that the drivers are the same, etc.

I will say this much. I've owned pin/blade 2B's that I TL'd with Sonicaps, and now I own 4.1TL's also done with Sonicaps. I used an Erse inductor in the 2B's and a Solen in the 4.1's, I used the stock small inductors in the 2B's but Jantzens in the 4.1's. I used Mills resistors in the 2B's but Duelands in the 4.1's. And I used the stock boards with the 2B's but Tony's boards for the 4.1's. While I haven't owned the 2B's in some time, I did have them in the exact same room in the exact same location, and my room (while small) is set up pretty well. It's close. Real close. I suspect that in a true, well-configured head-to-head, with identical crossover components, the 2BTL's would likely edge out the 4.1TL by a small margin. For me, though, the difference in size between the two tips the scales in favor of the 4.1TL's. I know I'll be moving house, likely more than once, in the coming years. Being able to move these speakers easily is definitely a factor for me, and with the sound so bloody good I really don't feel like I'm sacrificing anything.

As I've said many times, pound for pound the CRS+/4.1TL is really the darling of the SDA line. Sure, you can get better/bigger sound, but size does matter and the little guys definitely rule in that category.

Mystery

nspindel wrote: »

...So the crossovers can be in completely different states as far as the degradation of the caps. To do your comparison right, you really need to bring the crossovers of both pairs to an equal state, break them in similarly, ensure that the drivers are the same, etc.

Agreed and from my tests, 2B's are in need of crossover upgrade more than CRS+.

Mr. Bubbles

I don't think your "educate me" reply was intended for me but positioniing can greatly effect the mids and highs. Not so mutch the distance from the rear of cabinet to the wall but when speakers are placed around other items especially other non functional speakers. This was a big reason for DK (i am only assuming and not speaking directly for DK here) and myself mentioning removeing the other speakers. Non driven speakers will resonate with the soundwaves of the driven speakers (very much like a passive radiator.) and create out of phase cancellations or in phasde peaks and can throw the original sound off tremendously. The positioning is not set in stone but the closer they are the more prblematic this usually is. hence the 2B's right next to the 12's. The CRS+'s were much more open. Also Diffraction and reflection play a significant role in highs and mids. Lowering reflections/ diffraction help greatly to smooth the sound, again reducing the aforementioned peaks and nulls. Bringing the speakers closer to the wall will dirctly effect the bass form the boundry effect of the speaker coupling to the room differently. It can also indirectly effectthe mids and highs by placeing them in a less advantageuos position for reflections due to positioning of other items in the room.

I do not own the CRS+'s and can't be a judge as to which i would like best 100%. But all of us have different preferences simply due to our taste in music and what we like. We alos have different hearing curves due to genetics and lifestyle. With my background in car audio and my two best friends growing up as drummers my hearing curve favors mid frequencies somewhat making my choice in speakers more for one with the mids a little more laid back. i like a little more volume in the bass and highs since my hearing naturally picks out the mids easiser. This combination smooths the sound to my ears where it will not look perfect when measured.

Anyway i know we all keep harping on your room and setup. But it's yours. Work with what you've got and be sure you enjoy it. Just be aware that one day you may want to try (just for your own knowledge) emptying the room of all unncessary gear and starting very simple just to test the same speakers you are already familiar with so you can hear what we all are saying. we're not trying to knock it. Just help. Enjoy.

intangible

Mystery wrote: »

CRS+'s are louder at same volume than 2B's.

Did you level match the speakers at the listening position? Simply switching back and forth with the volume control in the same position will lead to many of the observations you describe (fuller sound, larger sound stage, etc.) in favor of the louder speaker. Ideally you would want to use a dedicated AB switch with independent level controls, but you can approximate the same thing with zone 2 on an AV receiver and a quick muting finger.

Mystery

intangible wrote: »

Did you level match the speakers at the listening position? Simply switching back and forth with the volume control in the same position will lead to many of the observations you describe (fuller sound, larger sound stage, etc.) in favor of the louder speaker. Ideally you would want to use a dedicated AB switch with independent level controls, but you can approximate the same thing with zone 2 on an AV receiver and a quick muting finger.

Yes, volume is taken into account.

naturallight

OK..this may be my fault, and maybe confusing the 2B's with another speaker. The 1C's have 4 drivers 2 tweeters and the 12 passive. Now if the 2B's don't have that..my screwup.



As far as being "upfront" type speakers...I would say no they are not, but they are not lacking in mids or high end. Mine work best about a foot off the back wall....BUT they need room on the sides to "breath" The problem with larger SDA speakers is they just don't like small rooms.

If the speakers are confined by whatever happens to be on the side of the speaker..the SDA "effect" is then confined, and with the 1C's thats half the speakers in 1 cab..so yes it could well have an effect on the mids. Now thats just a guess on my part. What i will say is my 1C's don't like a small room...

In say a 12x12 room...they are passable, but don't sound all that great. You put them in a larger more open room...then they open up and shine. This becomes worse as you go to the bigger SDA's



Not sure thats a great answer for you. But if you would rather have a more "upfront" speaker, the 2B' s are probably not what you want..at least my 1C's are not that way.

Mystery

naturallight wrote: »

OK..this may be my fault, and maybe confusing the 2B's with another speaker. The 1C's have 4 drivers 2 tweeters and the 12 passive. Now if the 2B's don't have that..my screwup.

No problem... 2B's only have 1 stereo and 1 dimensional driver in each cabinet.

naturallight

Sorry..my fault, guess i was thinking of 1B's which i think have the same number of drivers.
Don't know what to say about those, don't have them and never heard them, so that renders my opinoin Invalid on them...LOL

nspindel

Those 2B's look like they're in beautiful condition.

DarqueKnight

Mystery wrote: »

CRS+'s are louder at same volume than 2B's.

I think the CRS+'s may sound louder because they are exciting more resonances with their forward firing drivers and rear firing passive radiator.

F1nut wrote: »

The 4.1TL's are collecting dust, the 2BTL's are in use daily. Don't get me wrong, the 4.1TL's are damn nice speakers, but.

Well of course those little CRS+'s were outgunned by the much large 2B's. If a smaller speaker that moves less air sounds louder than a bigger speaker moving more air, then something is wrong with the speakers or the room.

westmassguy

nspindel wrote: »

Those 2B's look like they're in beautiful condition.

They look like my 2As with Slab Top and Bottoms applied, and Grill Cloth Applied to the sides.

sda2mike

Mystery wrote: »

No problem... 2B's only have 1 stereo and 1 dimensional driver in each cabinet.

they are capable of very high volume levels with clarity...i've reached the slightest hint of distortion only twice in 10 years of ownership..i doubt most people would have heard it...i don't go that crazy anymore...but still, pushing that throttle and feeling th speakers open up, is a thrill...they have no business digging that deep with only 1 full time bass-driver..clean up your testing area and give them another shot;)

mike