Another ruined one (MartinLogan demo)

Serendipity

So I finally got to hear a pair of MartinLogans for the second time (first time was at Magnolia's in a Best Buy) and thought wow... these are really fatiguing to listen to after a while. Thought that these would be great for Jazz and Classical but for anything that already has a "hot" high-end, I didn't think they would work great. The song used for the demo was The Script - Hall of Fame and I didn't think much of it until I got home and heard the exact same thing on my rig (granted, I was just listening to a YouTube recording) but the mids and highs are so "crunchy" the song is impossible to listen to in its entirety:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jukv9Q1eR2g

So moral of the story is, I guess I'll have to keep this in mind when demoing high-end speakers, to check the source material myself (especially if it's a song I never heard before). Who knows, they might have sounded great, but the source pretty much ruined the demo of what the speakers could actually do.

YMMV...

deronb1

In home demos are the absolute best way to choose a new speaker system. Unfortunately, at least around here, there are not too many places that will do that.

Serendipity

It was an in-home demo, at the owner's home. The problem was that the recording used was too harsh and fatiguing and this transferred over to the speakers. I had not heard this song before, and didn't know what was going on (except my ears were not liking the crunchy, fatiguing highs) and thought these speakers were too "forward" sounding for my liking.

deronb1

I understand. I guess what I was trying to say is that the best way to demo a speakers is in your house, on your gear, with your reference material. I can be vague at times.:redface:

maximillian

At the very minimal step, bring your own source material. Aplle iPods have some good quality DACs or simply bring a CD. Of course the typical electronics used in BB is an AVR so you still have to consider such demos accordingly.

Serendipity

The funny thing is, after I heard the song I ended up really liking it and playing it everywhere. It's listenable on my HTiB system, and sounds pretty good in the car, but is absolutely fatiguing and distorted sounding on any of my serious rigs. Oh well, guess that's why I still have the HTiB set up and my car stereo is quite forgiving (head unit and amps are both warm sounding)...

treitz3

Serendipity wrote: »

The funny thing is, after I heard the song I ended up really liking it and playing it everywhere. It's listenable on my HTiB system, and sounds pretty good in the car, but is absolutely fatiguing and distorted sounding on any of my serious rigs.

Welcome to a great example of dynamic range compression, Serendipity. Here's a video that clearly illustrates what's happening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ

Tom

Serendipity

Interesting. I watched the video and it seems like dynamic range compression is used to make a song sound louder, which may be to stand out from other CD's in a jukebox or for radio play, but it almost seems as if The Script chose that level of compression to convey a level of emotion and energy in the song.

Let's face it, Hall of Fame is about achieving your goals, not giving up in life, and living your life to the fullest. It has a level of energy that confirms the meaning of the song and is very different from your typical pop song today. The drums are forward sounding, the lyrics are powerful, everything about the song makes me want to get out and do something that I never thought I would do before.

Interestingly, in the first MartinLogan demo at Best Buy, the salesman used Coldplay - Paradise and it's a similar type of song, very powerful, very emotional, highly compressed with loud guitars and lyrics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G4isv_Fylg

Right now I am listening to Jazz on the Polks and they sound great at higher volumes, because the CD does not have excessive dynamic range compression. So maybe it's a stylistic thing and part of the song?

Interesting...

treitz3

The hottest selling album of last year, Adele's 21 has the same issue. Sounds great in the car with the windows rolled down but if you put in any type of worthwhile system, it sounds horrible.

Tom

Serendipity

So what's the solution? I built my car stereo around this premise (warm speakers, warm sounding head unit, and warm sounding amps) and use a treble cut of -2dB whenever listening to the radio. For CD's, I can run the tone controls flat because most of my recordings are Jazz or instrumental or classical.

At home I find I am listening to my background music (BGM) system more often because the Polk inwall speakers are great for listening to this kind of music at low levels.

I've pretty much stopped listening to my serious rigs for any of this stuff and only use them for audiophile recordings such as those produced by labels such as AIX, Chesky, etc. and well-recorded classical and instrumental CD's. For example Enya - Watermark sounds great on any of my rigs.

treitz3

The solution? I don't think there is one. Petitions to the recording industry have proven futile. Until the loudness wars stop, mainstream music will continue to produce bad recordings. Other than concentrating on purchasing well recorded music, I think you have found the best solution.

Tom

Serendipity

Well, the solution for me right now is multiple rigs. For me 2013 is going to be the year of inwalls installed all around the house (Polk Vanishing RTi and LSi series), garden speakers and planter speakers all around the yard, distributed audio everywhere from the kitchen to the dining areas, all powered by audiophile (Class A or D) amps. I've already started and can say that high power, Class D amps sound great and run cool.

tonyb

what....did the guy play one song on this demo ? Surely you heard others I hope. Any comments on these speakers with other material ?

Face

deronb1 wrote: »

I understand. I guess what I was trying to say is that the best way to demo a speakers is in your house, on your gear, with your reference material.

+1...

Given the conditions of your listening room, I would look into something with a waveguide loaded tweeter, coax, etc... As your room is somewhat lively, and this will help keep coherence.

Serendipity

tonyb wrote: »

what....did the guy play one song on this demo ? Surely you heard others I hope. Any comments on these speakers with other material ?

I listened to the one song and quickly lost interest. For the demo at Best Buy, I couldn't stand being in the room, had to walk out and tell the salesman "sorry" because it was too fatiguing.

treitz3

Hey, just an FYI. Even though I'm not the biggest fan of ML's, the ML's shouldn't be bright or confused sounding. Given the right gear and recording, they can be a pleasurable speaker.

Tom

Strong Bad

This is why you ALWAYS take your own music with you to a demo. 99.9% of the time, some Best Buy person will simply choose the latest mainstream garbage to demo. ALWAYS take your own music!

Serendipity

Strong Bad wrote: »

This is why you ALWAYS take your own music with you to a demo. 99.9% of the time, some Best Buy person will simply choose the latest mainstream garbage to demo. ALWAYS take your own music!

Which is fine, until you bring them home and hear the radio through a high-end tuner and can't stand to listen for more than 5 minutes. Then wonder why a pair of $600 inwall speakers sounds better. I think someone here once posted that the Polk XRT12 tuner sounds best on a cheap pair of Yamaha outdoor speakers, but terrible on their rig.

treitz3

Serendipity wrote: »

So what's the solution?

Well, I don't know if this is a solution or not but I figured that it wouldn't hurt. I just joined a group called Pleasurize Music Foundation and will be an active contributing member here within the week. Their website can be accessed by clicking the link below.

http://www.dynamicrange.de/

From that website;

To become Active Member just tick the "Active Member" box when signing up. Than just go to menu "Active Member" and klick the donation button. As soon as we?ve received the donation we will change your member status and you will have access to all areas including the download area (up from 1 July 2009).

A Sign Up is also possible without becoming an Active Member. Just don?t tick the box when signing up. You support the PMF on a "moral" base in a sense of a petition.

Please note that which has been highlighted in bold.

Tom

Serendipity

Tom,

I understand your premise, and that overcompression is ruining the sound quality of music these days. However, modern music has a sort of "energy" to it and emotion that comes with the compression. Right now I have a Liebermann piano concerto playing on the main rig and it sounds amazing. Does it have the level of emotion that The Script - Hall of Fame has? Probably not, but that's not why I listen to classical. I do it because I was classical trained and grew up understanding and appreciating classical music.

So I guess there is no "right" or "wrong" in selecting the level of compression - in some cases music that is powerful like Bon Jovi needs the compression to conevy a level of impact, and emotion. For those I'll enjoy my background music rigs and car stereo. For critical listening, that's why I have the HiFi.

treitz3

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree with that one. IMO, there should be no reason for any dynamic compression. Every time they compress the dynamics, you end up losing the impact and clarity which when you think about it....it's energy. I have a volume knob and if I want it loud, I'll turn it up.....but destroying the music just to make it loud for others forces me to do the exact opposite. Turning it down or like you, not even playing it unless the volume is low and even then, on a sub par system.

Tom

Serendipity

By compressing the overall waveform there is more area under the curve, therefore, more overall acoustical energy. I understand that the peaks will be chopped off and not have as much impact; however, there is simply more energy in a compressed recording. Just listen to a modern rock radio station. The guitars are loud, the vocals are louder, the overall background level is raised, and there's more emotion.

Serendipity

Oh and BTW. There is a technical reason for the need for dynamic range compression on the radio. In the early days, someone in the radio station performed manual gain-riding, which was to make sure that the peaks of the recording didn't cause the transmitter to go into overmodulation or blow up equipment. The goal was to have the level as loud as possible before overmodulation or very bad things would happen.

Later on, as multi-band limiters, compressors, automatic gain control circuits became popular, manual gain riding was replaced by radio processors such as the Orban OptiMod series which would allow the radio signal to be as loud as possible without going into distortion. This allowed for the best coverage range and best signal to noise ratio without pushing the transmitter into overmodulation.

treitz3

Yeah, it sounds good on a modern rock station. Thing is, I don't listen to the radio much. Mainly because they tend to put all of the songs on fast forward when they play them. That's annoying but not as annoying as going out and spending your hard earned money on some great music, only to find out that it has been permanently ruined just to sound good on the radio, an I-pod or MP3 player. At that point, you can't recover what has already been destroyed. Try bringing the dynamics back and it sounds worse than the dynamically compressed original.

This is why I'm a little perturbed at the "convenience" crowd and the recording industry. The recording industry caters to the convenience crowd and completely ruins great artistic talent for the sake of the radio. What about the proper preservation of that musical talent from a historical point of view? I have recordings from as early as the 50's that sound wonderful on the radio and my reference rig. As a lover of music, I'd like to have the choice of where to listen. I don't want my music confined to a convenience playback method.

Tom

Serendipity

For example, if I were listening to The Script in a Jeep Wrangler, top down, music cranked with big offroad tires on the Jeep, I would prefer the radio version simply because of the area under the curve principle. There's more acoustical energy to get over the road noise, wind, and engine noise vs. a dynamic recording. I guess it's really about enjoying the music - I have different rigs to enjoy the music in different ways. When I have a quiet listening environment I'll put a quality classical recording from an audiophile label such as AIX Records and enjoy the music. If I am working on the yard or mowing the lawn, I'll have the Polks in the backyard playing as a background music system. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Just have to build a different rig for each purpose, and then sit back and enjoy the music.

polkfarmboy

I just listened to that youtube song and I dont find it crunchy or fatiguing? What logans where they ?

Who goes for a demo of high end speakers and listens to a you tube song anyways ?

scottyboy76

Serendipity wrote: »

For example, if I were listening to The Script in a Jeep Wrangler, top down, music cranked with big offroad tires on the Jeep, I would prefer the radio version simply because of the area under the curve principle. There's more acoustical energy to get over the road noise, wind, and engine noise vs. a dynamic recording. I guess it's really about enjoying the music - I have different rigs to enjoy the music in different ways. When I have a quiet listening environment I'll put a quality classical recording from an audiophile label such as AIX Records and enjoy the music. If I am working on the yard or mowing the lawn, I'll have the Polks in the backyard playing as a background music system. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Just have to build a different rig for each purpose, and then sit back and enjoy the music.

i think the prob is the industry does not believe as you do.

If they believed as you, they would say different strokes as well, and give people the chance to play the recording as they wish.

Im not nearly as well informed as tom and probably you, as well as a lot of others here, but i remember when you could turn it up or not, it sounded good in the car or at home.

Face

polkfarmboy wrote: »

I just listened to that youtube song and I dont find it crunchy or fatiguing? What logans where they ?

Who goes for a demo of high end speakers and listens to a you tube song anyways ?

Different room, different gear, things won't sound the same. Plus, Alex is more sensitive to high frequencies than anyone else I've met.

Serendipity

treitz3 wrote: »

The hottest selling album of last year, Adele's 21 has the same issue. Sounds great in the car with the windows rolled down but if you put in any type of worthwhile system, it sounds horrible.

Tom

Well, there you go... dynamic range compression doesn't seem to affect record sales, at least with the above example. I've known many wtih high-end rigs (Martin Logans, McIntosh gear, B&W's, etc.) who listen to just cable box music or satellite radio. And are perfectly happy with what they hear. So that's why I've learned to change the gear to accomodate the music, and that's what works for me.

treitz3

Serendipity wrote: »

Well, there you go... dynamic range compression doesn't seem to affect record sales, at least with the above example.

You are right. That's the problem. The power of Adele and this young lady's talent is what is driving the sales for her album and unfortunately, the mainstream recording professionals are looking to her album with the thought that this is the way recordings should be. That's a big problem because the album, from my standpoint, sounds like (fill in the negative adjective) and is not musical at all. The mainstream public is so "dumbed down" about how good music can sound, they think it sounds great when in reality, this couldn't be further from the truth.

I'd like to share something with you about folks that like good sound. They want the best. I know there are many on this forum and many multiple tens of thousands of others that have one or two copies of particular albums. Perhaps more. Some even have 10 or 12 of the same album in every format available just looking for the absolute best sounding album there is. Just a couple off the top of my head would be Dire Straights "Money for Nothing" and Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" albums. You would be hard pressed to see anybody purchase a better copy of Adele's 21. It's just too far gone. You can't even recognize that the drum is, in fact a drum, it's so far gone. Point being that if you think sales aren't affected, look at the long term and not just the short term.

Serendipity wrote: »

I've known many with high-end rigs (Martin Logans, McIntosh gear, B&W's, etc.) who listen to just cable box music or satellite radio. And are perfectly happy with what they hear. So that's why I've learned to change the gear to accommodate the music, and that's what works for me.

That's cool for you.....but I will not change my gear to accommodate the music. To me, that's just silly talk. IMO, music should be made to play in a high fidelity system first. The convenience crowd second. My reasoning?

One can always take a well recorded album and rather easily through programs, dynamically compress the heck out of it so that they can enjoy it in their Jeep. However, one can not take something that has been dynamically compressed and make it to where it will sound good on a high fidelity system. Once the recording has been dynamically compressed, it's ruined and the end result is what you heard on your latest Martin Logan demo.

Tom

Nhpm510

As the owner of ML electro-stats I 'll say they are very revealing and enjoyable speakers for music.
Source material is important, garbage in, garbage out.

Today's over processed "music" is designed for listening with .25 cent earbuds over the rush hour commute.