Conversation Starter

Tornado Red

My son loaned me Looper and The Amazing Spiderman on blu to watch this weekend. In front of each movie were the obligatory trailers for either "coming to blu-ray or theaters". Sony (Spiderman) presented MIB 3 and Total Recall. Alliance (Looper) presented Dredd 3d, Django, and The Last Stand. I know I'm about to watch an action movie, so I understand that's what they're likely going to push in the trailers. I'm looking at the guns, bigger guns, and weapons almost beyond description. Since the happening in Connecticut, it seems I'm looking at things in ways I never did before. The violence seems to be everywhere, including tv. I guess it's always been there, but to this extent? And I'm not pointing fingers at the film studios, they're just giving us what we want...right? I can't say I don't like some of it either, I didn't set up a 7.1 system to watch "My Dinner With Andre"....
This isn't a rant either pro/con gun control or any kind of political statement, just a dialog. I remember serious conversations taking place back in the '70s about whether to outlaw boxing or not. And now we're all UFC. I guess the question I'm asking in all of this is, and we all have our own thoughts that differ from each other I'm sure, are we heading in the right direction for the future? Is what we're engaged in watching these days a good thing? Okay, you all have your assignment: solve the world's problems in a paragraph or less...

rpf65

I've never been on the movies/video games are responsible bandwagon. I'm just convinced it's a combination of tings. Can violent movies effect some people? Sure, but I think there are other things also.

soundfreak1

They effect those whome are already messed up to start with, mental health issues are ignored in this country. Sane people and john q-public gun owner are not the problem its the unstable amoung us that are at issue. These are the people we need to track and identify. And there is the "rub" they cant be identified if ignored.

Nhpm510

Humanity has made "progress" over the past million years. Slow and bloody progress. The past 50 years technological progress has
not changed or altered humans that much. Give it another thousand years or so.

maximillian

My random thoughts (just my opinion so no need to go crazy if you disagree)...

We love violence for some reason. We go all crazy and fine the networks for a brief picture of an old hack's breast that is accidentally showed on live TV due to a wardrobe malfunction. But accidentally show someone getting killed live and nobody cares (recently FOX news aired someone killing themselves after a police chase).

One of my pet peeves is how parents don't care about letting their kids be exposed to tons of violence. When I saw Transformers 3 there was a 2 year old accompanied by his dad in the theater. That movie was pretty much non-stop violence and had lots of blood in it. No way I would let my kid see that until they are much older. I have filtered their access to violence as much as possible. When they are older I will allow them to choose to see it. However, I have introduced my kids to shooting sports and archery. They know how to handle guns and responsibly because I taught them. And they don't equate these weapons for use in violence due to my training.

Biden's task force on violence was asked by media companies not to address violence in the media. Just goes to show what political hacks he and Obama are. I wish this country would engage in a better discussion of violence in our every day lives. It's just my opinion, but I think it needs to be addressed. I don't want to see the 2nd amendment adversely affected, but the 1st shouldn't either.

tonyb

Eh, nothing new. We are a society of extremes. Someone will always blame someone or something else for what ails todays society. Person responsability has left the building. Hollywood will do what ever sells. Violence and sex sells, and thats all they do these days. Is anyone going to watch a show like Leave it to Beaver anymore ? Play a video game about finding Waldo ? One can argue it's a reflection of society, but one can also argue who influences who.

In my humble opinion, it comes down to the family unit being destroyed, pulled apart, for various reasons. Always best to use the shaving mirror first before pointing fingers. Just my .02, as these subjects usually can go on for pages without any real problems adressed. Which is of itself another problem, we never deal with the problem only the symptoms.

mrbigbluelight

I agree that a LOT of society's problems lie with the family, or what's left of it.

When I was growing up, there were a lot of TV shows that, by today's 'standards' had a ton of mayhem.
For example, The Rifleman.
From a lower-estimate blurb off of a Rifleman blog:

""I think Lucas killed 109 people with 2 gunfights being too close to call. I would credit him with 2 of the 4 in Long Gun from Tucson and 2 or 3 of the 5 from The Retired gun, a total of 113 or 114...which is more than all the other gunfighters in the real west and probably more than any TV hero including the Matt Dillon and the Lone Ranger who were around for quite a while including radio and TV...but still far less than 2 and 1/2 per show. I broke it down by year and Lucas killed":

1. about 30 in first season (figuring 2 in the Retired Gun)
2. 24 in season 2
3. 14 in season 3 (interesting that the least violent season did poorly in the ratings)
4. about 29 in season 4 in 32 shows, the most violent season per show at least for Lucas (figuring 2 killed in Long Gun from Tucson)
5. 16 in 26 episodes in season 5"

Others have estimates of 245 killed, with a lot of arguments over whether Lucas McCain should be credited with a certain shot.

Point being, this was a very popular show. We (kids) watched it all the time. Never a case of myself or my friends saying, "Hey, let's go out and shoot up the joint !".

Throw in "The Untouchables", "Gunsmoke", "Cheyenne", "Sugarfoot", etc and there was a lot of lead slinging in those days.
On TV. Not in real life.

Now it's different. The decline of the family structure is one big factor. The rise of Big Pharma is another, IMO.
"Sometimes Lil' Billy seems distracted in class. He'll occasionally stare out the window. With his lack of attention, we feel it is best if we get him on medication for ADD."
More income for schools for kids diagnosed with ADD, more profits for Big Pharma.
And the kids are placed on drugs that Big Pharma admits, "We're not sure how these work, but ..." and "may increase thoughts of suicide", etc.

Just my opinion.

bikezappa

Love is the topic of most songs.

I don't see much love going around however.

tonyb

Big Pharma....yeah man, I can go along with that. I know soo many kids on meds since kindergarden it sickens me. Alot of problems in young kids stem from lack of attention with 2 busy working parents and the TV or computer are the convenient babysitter. It all starts at home, like most of us probably agree. Again, it's treating a symptom rather than dealing with the problem at hand.

Kinda goes back to my assertion that we need to build better quality people. Chasing that almighty buck is one thing, but it should never take such control that everything else becomes irrelevant. Yet, thats a personal decision we all must make on our own.

I remember as my daughters were growing up, they would get mad at me for punishing them for things they did wrong, or riding shotgun over them too closely. As they grew, they told me the worst things that I could have said to them. It wasn't what I would take away, or forbid them to do. They said whenever I told them that I was disappointed in them or their decisions, it was the worst thing they wanted to hear. I felt then....I did my job as a parent.

deronb1

Bad or neglectful parenting does not cause ADHD. It is a real thing and has been around for a long time. Before meds, the kids were labled as "bad eggs" or just a distraction and thrown out of school or put in some alternative ed program.

Now, are some kids misdiagnosed? Certainly, and its easy to lable a kid with attention issues as "hyper", but I work with these type of kids every day and I have seen them on and off their meds. Huge difference with most of them.

The goal of Special Ed today is to provide the best education possible in the least restrictive environment, based on EACH childs individual diagnosis. ADHD meds have kept a lot of kids in traditional schooling.

Msabot1

Seems like a lot of people can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy anymore.....sadly!

deronb1

Msabot1 wrote: »

Seems like a lot of people can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy anymore.....sadly!

Not really sure what that is supposed to mean.

Msabot1

Blaming media sources for the actions of a few is like trying to tell the sea not to come in at high tide! Actions weather real or imagined begins with the individual,the right versus wrong argument!

deronb1

ah, gotcha....indeed.

KellyMic

I have a fairly different take on this than many people...

Human's are no stranger to violence, the middle ages were violent, as was the roman empire. They use to gather to watch lions and gladiators do horrible things for entertainment. The Spanish inquisition was terrible as well as the christian crusades. Even the wild American west was a place of often violent behavior. It has always been accepted by many cultures. There are countless more examples. Now days we go to watch it done in movies and on TV for entertainment. Which is worse, seeing fake glorified violence or going to watch it for real, have things really changed that much?

We as a species have a long way to go before violence will be gone. I don't see it happening in my life time.

tonyb

I doubt we will see that ever Kelly. Violence is inherit to our species. You can try and limit it as best any normal society can, but it will always be around.

As far as Kids and ADD meds, of course there are real kids with real problems, nobody is saying different. Thing is way too many have taken the easy route in diagnosis to cope with a kid rather than dig into the real problems of some. Much easier to toss meds at them and then use it as a crutch for their whole life as well as any critique of a parents parenting skills.

deronb1

tonyb wrote: »

I doubt we will see that ever Kelly. Violence is inherit to our species. You can try and limit it as best any normal society can, but it will always be around.

As far as Kids and ADD meds, of course there are real kids with real problems, nobody is saying different. Thing is way too many have taken the easy route in diagnosis to cope with a kid rather than dig into the real problems of some. Much easier to toss meds at them and then use it as a crutch for their whole life as well as any critique of a parents parenting skills.

Agreed Tony, but ADHD meds dont do much for kids who don't need them. I think a more contraversial affliction is ODD (Oppositional Defiance Disorder). There are medications for that as well, but are mostly sedatives. Many kids diagnosed will ODD just suffer from ****! Here, the upbringing and lack of boundries is in many cases similar with their behavior.

tonyb

LOL !!
Chill man.....your hinting on extremes. Point taken....but seriously, you gonna deny the over medication of children today ? Most common are kids with bad behavior are almost always put on meds because parents can't/won't adress why they are acting out. Schools actually require it. I've seen it in my own immediate family, my friends and relatives too. It's sad in a way because these poor kids are never expected to achieve because of the label slapped on them. Guess what ? They don't achieve and become a drain on society. I'm not talking about the ones that truely are in need, God bless 'em, and I'm thankfull help is available for them. On another note, how many more parents are on meds these days ? If you blink more than x amount per minute there's a med for you. If you sleep 9 hours a day, there's a med to keep you awake or just the opposite, to make you sleep more. Big Pharma has convinced people that even some normal behavior needs to be medicated.

This can also lead into disability....a whole nutha ballgame. Saw a story the other day about a guy who got disability because he can't keep a job because of his addiction. Whats his addiction ? Heavy metal music....

tophatjohnny

bikezappa wrote: »

Love is the topic of most songs.

I don't see much love going around however.

Exactly! Love is the drug the world needs to embrace, practice, drill and rehearse on a daily basis! It's kept me in a great marriage for 20 years, and 30 years all together with the same partner. She believes the same, The family that prays together, pretty much stays together. This practice can be extended to total strangers as well, and those who believe and practice this life style, usually have a reason to wear a smile!

Nhpm510

KellyMic wrote: »

I have a fairly different take on this than many people...

Human's are no stranger to violence, the middle ages were violent, as was the roman empire. They use to gather to watch lions and gladiators do horrible things for entertainment. The Spanish inquisition was terrible as well as the christian crusades. Even the wild American west was a place of often violent behavior. It has always been accepted by many cultures. There are countless more examples. Now days we go to watch it done in movies and on TV for entertainment. Which is worse, seeing fake glorified violence or going to watch it for real, have things really changed that much?

We as a species have a long way to go before violence will be gone. I don't see it happening in my life time.

Totally agree. If man has walked for 8-900k years, it should only take another 300-400k to reduce or eliminate the violence.

Nhpm510

tophatjohnny wrote: »

Exactly! Love is the drug the world needs to embrace, practice, drill and rehearse on a daily basis! It's kept me in a great marriage for 20 years, and 30 years all together with the same partner. She believes the same, The family that prays together, pretty much stays together. This practice can be extended to total strangers as well, and those who believe and practice this life style, usually have a reason to wear a smile!

This type of radical thinking doesn't fit into the hyper marketing and commercialism lifestyle Madison Ave is pushing.
For those not into the praying part, it can be shown in other ways.

Msabot1

I do not think as a species humans are drawn to violence, usually it is thrust upon us out of duty or survival or both. Anyone that has been in a truly violent situation will tell you it is not a very pleasant experience and you do things that in normal times would never be contemplated. One thing for certain though....If there was a lot more love in the world there would be a lot less dying!

deronb1

tonyb wrote: »

LOL !!
Chill man.....your hinting on extremes. Point taken....but seriously, you gonna deny the over medication of children today ? Most common are kids with bad behavior are almost always put on meds because parents can't/won't adress why they are acting out. Schools actually require it. I've seen it in my own immediate family, my friends and relatives too. It's sad in a way because these poor kids are never expected to achieve because of the label slapped on them. Guess what ? They don't achieve and become a drain on society. I'm not talking about the ones that truely are in need, God bless 'em, and I'm thankfull help is available for them. On another note, how many more parents are on meds these days ? If you blink more than x amount per minute there's a med for you. If you sleep 9 hours a day, there's a med to keep you awake or just the opposite, to make you sleep more. Big Pharma has convinced people that even some normal behavior needs to be medicated.

This can also lead into disability....a whole nutha ballgame. Saw a story the other day about a guy who got disability because he can't keep a job because of his addiction. Whats his addiction ? Heavy metal music....

I'm good Tony! I am not arguing about the over medication of many of our kids. Many are medicated and all they might need is stronger parenting, therapy or even just a diet adjustment. And don't get me started on physical activity. Too many are sitting on their butts playing video games, sitting in front of a computer or watching T.V. 10 hours a day. You gotta be at least 30 to start that crap!:rolleyes:

cnh

tonyb wrote: »

Big Pharma....yeah man, I can go along with that. I know soo many kids on meds since kindergarden it sickens me. Alot of problems in young kids stem from lack of attention with 2 busy working parents and the TV or computer are the convenient babysitter. It all starts at home, like most of us probably agree. Again, it's treating a symptom rather than dealing with the problem at hand.

Kinda goes back to my assertion that we need to build better quality people. Chasing that almighty buck is one thing, but it should never take such control that everything else becomes irrelevant. Yet, thats a personal decision we all must make on our own.

I remember as my daughters were growing up, they would get mad at me for punishing them for things they did wrong, or riding shotgun over them too closely. As they grew, they told me the worst things that I could have said to them. It wasn't what I would take away, or forbid them to do. They said whenever I told them that I was disappointed in them or their decisions, it was the worst thing they wanted to hear. I felt then....I did my job as a parent.

I couldn't agree more! And also agree with most of what you've said above and below this. Which is good, because I don't have time for another TOME on this site tonight, I have to grade papers!

Thanks, tony!

cnh

tonyb

I hear ya bro.....always look forward to our conversations anyway. Give 'em all A's. Kinda like Fred Clause when he stamped all the kids "Good".

cowtrimmer

Lack of personal responsibility leads to chaos.

wayne3burk

I don't know if being exposed to movies or video games correlates to a one to one relationship with violent behavior, if it did then we'd all be out committing violent deeds, based solely on our movie and video game consumption. Those who pointed out that we don't have a good mental health system in our country that provides "real" treatment, counseling, treatment, follow-up, etc., should also look more closely at their own opinions visa vie nationalized health care, government intrusion into the their personal life, individual liberties and freedom. One could make the argument that providing mental health care would be an intrusion into persons, or the public's individual and collective liberty.

I looked up the comparative murder rates of countries on wikipedia - to see how different countries murder rates compare. In doing so it occurred to me to also look up the comparative suicide rates between countries. Seems like an inverse relationship exists here. Those countries with the highest murder rate have the lowest suicide rates and vise versa, hte countries with highest suicide rates have the lower murder rates.

Maybe taking a closer look at the differences in the cultures at the opposite ends of those scales could give us a clue as to factors that give a prominence to one type of violence over the other.

Clearly someone who commits murder and someone who commits suicide are both fundamentally disturbed. There is no excuse in my opinion for either, but in my book the person who chooses suicide and doesn't take out a McDonalds full of patrons with them is preferential.

tonyb

Comparisons to other countries is fine but also must be taken with a more casual approach. It's hard to compare apples to apples as no other country is like ours. Different cultures breed different emotional problems that can induce such behavior. I'll stand by my comments of it all starting at home. If parents didn't buy their kids violent games, they'd make something else. If they stopped letting them see violent movies, they'd make others. Don't get me wrong, I'm not professing we revert back to a 1950's mentality, but kids need constant supervision and a keen eye on what they are being exposed to. Internet supervision is another. I know so many 10 year olds who have zero supervision. Parents buy them a cell phone with internet, say happy birthday, and it ends there. Ocassionally I'll even ask the parent who I may be friends with if they supervise their activity on the internet. Ya know the answer I get 4 out of 5 times.......whats the big deal, all the kids have access these days. Most of the times these parents are usually not computer savy either so their knowledge of whats out there is limited. Some are though, and simply don't care, and thats scary to me. But....what do you do ? Can't legislate moral behavior or how to be a good parent. That comes from within. Which again, I'll go back to building better quality adults by building better quality kids.

Tornado Red

Some great points. I've raised my kids, now I watch as my daughter and her husband raise their's, a 9 and a 6 year old. I see them do things I wouldn't necessarily do, but I only offer advice when asked, it's their family to raise. I love that they have this great dialog with both kids, that's so important but...they try to talk across to the kids, try to reason with them from an adults point of view. Maybe that's okay sometimes, most times I think you just need to parent up, tell them right from wrong and that it's not up for discussion. Or maybe I'm just old fashioned. I mean, kids try to control their parents from the time they pop out of the womb kicking and screaming. I don't really envy my daughter and son-in-law, raising kids today is no mean feat. I see peer pressure as being the ultimate fight for parents. Trying to tell your child they can't do or have something that their 5 friend's parents say is okay. You can't bring them up in a bubble, but some days are tough having to wear the black hat.
There's an infamous saying that goes something like this "The No.1 job of every parent (and I think this transcends species) is to make their child independent." Seems like some animals are doing a better job than us at times...

tonyb

Tornado Red wrote: »

Some great points. I've raised my kids, now I watch as my daughter and her husband raise their's, a 9 and a 6 year old. I see them do things I wouldn't necessarily do, but I only offer advice when asked, it's their family to raise. I love that they have this great dialog with both kids, that's so important but...they try to talk across to the kids, try to reason with them from an adults point of view. Maybe that's okay sometimes, most times I think you just need to parent up, tell them right from wrong and that it's not up for discussion. Or maybe I'm just old fashioned. I mean, kids try to control their parents from the time they pop out of the womb kicking and screaming. I don't really envy my daughter and son-in-law, raising kids today is no mean feat. I see peer pressure as being the ultimate fight for parents. Trying to tell your child they can't do or have something that their 5 friend's parents say is okay. You can't bring them up in a bubble, but some days are tough having to wear the black hat.
There's an infamous saying that goes something like this "The No.1 job of every parent (and I think this transcends species) is to make their child independent." Seems like some animals are doing a better job than us at times...

Good points...make them independent ? I'll agree to an extent, but look around. Everything our society teaches is to be dependent, totally opposite. Dependent on government for a paycheck, healthcare, security, for college, a job, food stamps, to help pay for raising your kids, to buy you a cellphone, pay your rent or utility bills. Our society teaches that their poor lifestyle is of no fault of their own, no personal responsability. We reward failure and penalize achievement. An uphill battle for any parent trying to raise decent kids....wouldn't you say ?

I've never had a problem wearing that black hat. Believe me, many times I had a very rough go of it. I knew what the goal posts looked like down the road however and stuck with it. Today, their joined at my hip.

Part of being a parent also is to prepare them for when the day comes and they venture out on their own. Never sugar coated anything, reality is a huge wake up call for most kids as it was for some of us too. Sadly, alot of young adults today come out of school with certain ideals, then get pissy when the rest of the world doesn't conform to their way of thinking. I guess that could be said for many over generations, not just today. I stay out of my kids buisness on raising their kids. I will point out certain things that I feel are detrimental but never forcefull on my opinions. So once again, we come back to ..... it starts at home. Now the question is, how do we as a society improve on that ? Suggestions ?