Onkyo vs. Denon

dave shepard

I was at CC the other day and a customer was asking me my opion on the polks for music and was showing him the 70's. The salesmen put in a JVC demo disc with classical music on it and boy did the Onkyo and the 70's (by themselves) really sound great. It just about knocked me over. The sound was very full, mids were hitting perfect and the highs were excellant not too bright at all. The Onkyo sounded better then my Denon with a higher degree of detail and a fuller sound and can't figure why when the only speakers on were 2-rti 70's. What is the difference between the two and why can't I get that fuller more detailed sound through a reciever that cost almost twice as much? I can't make mine get there. The sound isn't bad comming for the 3803 it just isn't as full and detailed sounding as the Onkyo.

Dave

Dr. Spec

Have you compared the two AVRs under the same conditions (room, speakers, other gear) at the same playback volume?

I'm sure you heard a difference - but what caused the difference is the real question to answer.

It's hard to definitively say one AVR sounds better than another until you do a more scientific double blind test with all other variables eliminated.

shack

Dave, just face it...you don't like the Denon...and you probably never will. I know you had to buy it without listening first and several of your threads have indicated that it has never seemed to live up to your expectations or satisfy your ears. Maybe it's just time to cut your losses and run. Many folks have had excellent experiences with Denon (including me) and recommend them highly. However Denon may not be for you. Everyone is different. This is a classic case of only buy online if you can listen to the gear first OR there is a generous return policy like SVS or Outlaw. I hope you find the sound you like.

dave shepard

While I have had coincerns about the SQ of this reciever I have also had coincerns of interfance also. The noticeable one being the humm I am getting from the speakers with no sound being played, it gets louder when the volume is turned up. I did unplug the sat. while listening to the humm and the speakers let out a even louder deep pop and the humm got quieter when I plugged the sat. back in the humm got louder again. Could this be part of the problem?, what would cause this?, what can be done? The sound I'm getting through the speakers when playing is as though there is only one mid, and is kinda flat, almost to the point of sounding like a bigger tv speaker rather then a high quality sound system. It has to be something spupid I'm sure because the sound at CC in my opion should not be that drasticly better.

Dave

dave shepard

It seems that the impression I'm giving is that I'm not happy with the Denon and that is not true at all this reciever has alot to offer that others don't. The issue for me is the SQ that I'm getting compaired to what I hear at CC. I went back to CC and finally got somebody after confusing the hell out of the other two salesmen with my coincerns. He new the Denon and new them to be of the quality all have mentioned here. We came up to the conclusion that the humm could be resonating through with the sound tracks which in turn could be the cause of the issue. He didn't know about the cheeter plug (as did noone else in my area) but did recomend a Monster Cable power box ($300) which they have in there sound room for filtering the power and is used for a surge protector also and all AVR's are connected through it. What I'm experancing is when the diff. sounds that come through there is no seperation (or very little) between the highs and mids there is always something inbetween causing what I feel to be a muddy or flat sound (my discription). When things are suppose to be quiet (such as no sound or wispering or a dramatic pause in sound) there seems to be something there. I can hear it at low volume with nothing being played and it gets louder when turned up to listening levels (I can hear it at 25ft away in my chair at listening level) seems to be more prodominet through the 70's. Does this seem to be a better discription as to my coincern and issue? I try not to wright very long posts but I guess I should try to give a little better discription even if it causes a long read. Would the Monster Cable box eliminate the humm (ground loop) and give clean power to the system like he said?
To make things clear I'm not sorry for getting the 3803 by any stretch of the imagation even the wife thinks it was a good buy and she's not as into spending the money as me.

Sorry for the confusion
Thanks

Dave

Dr. Spec

You might have a defective AVR, or a ground loop, or some other problem.

Is it possible the 6th Ave units are refurbs?

My 3803 is dead quiet, has never given me an ounce of trouble, and is clean, accurate, and dynamic.

For your own sanity, I would take the AVR into another environment altogether and set it up and listen to it. A nearby friend's house maybe, with just the 70's. See if it still sounds like there is a problem.

Also, make sure your dynamic limiters or compression circuits are not running on the 3803 or the DVD player.

dave shepard

Well I spent the better part of the day fiddleing around with my set-up and came accross two problems. The first is a ground wire that is part of the sat. cable was not connected to anything. The second is the Panny DVD player set-up has a DVD video on/off switch and it was off. I have no idea why or how it happened but when I switched it to on and put in a DVD-A it came to life. Everytime I played it before it just sounded like a CD with little effect and I was not overly impressed now I have a different opinion. Apperantly with the dvd video switched to off it will still play DVD's & DVD-A's but will not let the good multi part (DTS, DD etc) out and I thought NEO-6 or PL II was the only choice I had and that was all I used for the best sound. When I put it to on and the reciever automaticly went to DTS and it read so on it's front screen for the first time all I can say is OH MY GOD!!! that was very nice and gave it a whole new sound and feel. The speakers came to life with a fresh full sound that I knew I was missing. I appoligize if anybody was getting tired of my coincerns but I just knew there was something missing and knew that it was something stupid and it was flusterating. I guess I now have to go back and rewatch all the movies I rewatched (and thought was better) when I first recieved the Denon .
Sorry again guys this was a bad oversight that I can assure you will not happen again. I can say that the 3803 after watching Anger Management with all this straightened out is put on my "A" list. Boy what a differance a day makes.

Dave

Emlyn

We all live and learn Dave. That's what makes this hobby fun and frustrating at the same time. When I bought my turntable and a separate phono amp, I took my time getting everything set up perfectly. After an hour or so, I put some vinyl on and....nothing. No sound other than a low rumble coming from my subwoofer. I disconnected everything, checked all the connections, cued the turntable up again after half an hour of head scratching. Nothing. Cursed. Cursed again. Got a drink. Noticed the light wasn't glowing on my Rotel amp. Duh. Realized yet again that although my receiver was on, I'd forgotten to turn on the separate amp and didn't have it hooked up to the receiver's 12 volt trigger to turn on when I turned the receiver on. The amp is on a trigger now.

Incidentally, I still have an older Onkyo amp around. It sounds great for music with RTi speakers with the trilaminate tweeters. Nothing wrong with matching Onkyo and Polk at all. The conveniences and features plus great sound quality of Denon's 3803 swayed me though.

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by dave shepard
The second is the Panny DVD player set-up has a DVD video on/off switch and it was off. I have no idea why or how it happened but when I switched it to on and put in a DVD-A it came to life. Everytime I played it before it just sounded like a CD with little effect and I was not overly impressed now I have a different opinion. Apperantly with the dvd video switched to off it will still play DVD's & DVD-A's but will not let the good multi part (DTS, DD etc) out and I thought NEO-6 or PL II was the only choice I had and that was all I used for the best sound. When I put it to on and the reciever automaticly went to DTS and it read so on it's front screen for the first time all I can say is OH MY GOD!!! that was very nice and gave it a whole new sound and feel. The speakers came to life with a fresh full sound that I knew I was missing. Dave

Dave:

The DVD player is often the culprit in these things - that is why I suggested (in previous threads) you go through the DVD player very carefully to check all of the audio settings.

For DVD-A, the decoder is on-board the player and you need to use the external outputs and the Ext. In. function on the 3803. This will require calibration of all the speakers, including the subwoofer, and will possibly also require you to mess around with the Ext. Sub Level on the 3803.

For DVD-V, use a digital feed (coax or fiber optic) from the DVD player to the 3803 and use the 3803 for decoding. For movies, the decoder in the 3803 is superior to that in the Panny.

You need to select the proper digital input on the 3803 and make sure it is set to Auto Decode and it will read the signal and automatically decode it.

Your 3803 should be able to read, decode, display, and play any of the following formats (as long as they are on the DVD itself) - DD 5.1, DD 5.1 EX, DTS 5.1, DTS 5.1 ES, and DTS 6.1 ES Discrete.

reeltrouble1

Dave,

Dont want to confuse this issue further but in theory the video off position is supposed to make your DVD-A discs sound better. If I read your post right you are saying turning it to video on made it sound better?

dave shepard

Originally posted by reeltrouble1
Dave,

Dont want to confuse this issue further but in theory the video off position is supposed to make your DVD-A discs sound better. If I read your post right you are saying turning it to video on made it sound better?

I have to go through the settings and take a better look, the manual is saying the samething . I don't know why but it did work that way lastnight but the manual says it will return to the off position when you change the disc or turn the player off. Any suggestions on the bitstream/pcm setting for DD&DTS? Both are set to bitstream. It was DD--bitstream, DTS--pcm until I changed it.

Dave

dave shepard

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
Dave:

The DVD player is often the culprit in these things - that is why I suggested (in previous threads) you go through the DVD player very carefully to check all of the audio settings.

Sorry I must have somehow overlooked something somewhere, I have checked the progressive out (disable), Dynamic range compression (off) as previously suggested, can you help with other settings to look for and where to set them for the best performance? I also have a fiber cable for the signal. I don't need something else for DVD-A do I?

Thanks

Dave

reeltrouble1

Dave,

Since I am running an Onk, Doc would be far better at helping with your Denon, I have listened to the Denon and find it to be at least equal if not surpassing my Onk, they are close.

On the Onk I have to physically select multi-channel to send the analog signal from my pioneer dvd to the six channel inputs of the onk, see if you have something similiar, it seems to me you have your settings set correctly with bitstream on your dvd.

dave shepard

Thanks Reel for at least bringing it to my attention. I have been hunting all day and have not had a chance to play with it as of yet.

Thanks again

Dave

RVJII

Originally posted by reeltrouble1
Dave,

Since I am running an Onk, Doc would be far better at helping with your Denon, I have listened to the Denon and find it to be at least equal if not surpassing my Onk, they are close.

On the Onk I have to physically select multi-channel to send the analog signal from my pioneer dvd to the six channel inputs of the onk, see if you have something similiar, it seems to me you have your settings set correctly with bitstream on your dvd.

Nice to see another Onkyo user. I myself went back and forth between Denon and Onkyo. The network capability of the TX-NR900 finally got me though. I agree though, it is a close call between the two.

Nice to see someone else with the same problem. I too finally realized that I had the settings on my DVD wrong. Really made a huge difference when I figured that one out. Gone are the days of "plug and play".

Dr. Spec

OK, let's try this again:

For DVD-A, the decoder is on-board the player.

In order to get the proper sound, you must use SIX separate analog interconnects between the DVD player and the 3803.

If you are routing the signal through a digital cable (coax or optic) you are not hearing true DVD-A.

Many DVD-A discs can also be played in regular DVD players. This is possibly what you are doing.

For regular DVD-V movies, I do suggest the digital connection to the 3803 and letting the 3803 decode the movies. The 3803 can decode DD-EX, DTS-ES, and DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete.

Your DVD player cannot decode these more advanced DVD-V sound formats, even though it has a basic DD and DTS 5.1 decoder on board, as well as the DVD-A decoder.

You can leave the six analog interconnects and the single digital interconnect connected to the 3803 all the time and it won't hurt anything. Just select the 3803 input you need for the format you want to hear (i.e., external inputs for DVD-A, and digital input for DVD-V).

Regards,

Doc

dave shepard

Thanks Doc,

I have been looking at the on-screen settings and the manual after reading your post and in doing that guess I will need to get more cables to run DVD-A. The owners manual is alittle confusing and less then informative in that the discription of connections lead me to think that it is to be hooked up one way or the other not both. That in turn made me look at the other settings as well the audio speaker setting was on multi-channel and looking closer in the manual says to put it on 2-channel for use with a amplifier w/Dolby Pro Logic decoder. Is that the norm? When I changed it to 2-channel the sound was increadable, it would still play as sourround the other way but much more detailed and seperated with the DVD set to 2-channel. I am very impressed with the sound I got with it after the setting changes made. You were right on the money about the detail and neuance of the 3803, impressive!!

Thanks for all your help

Dave

Dr. Spec

Yes, you need a set of six analog cables for DVD-A. No other way to do it.

The DVD player has a hierarchy. If you set it to multi-channel, it will look for that first. If it doesn't see a DVD-A disc, it will then go into 2 channel stereo mode.

When playing a 2 channel source, it will output sound to both the analog pre-outs and the digital pre-out.

If you use the analog pre-outs for 2 channel, you need to make sure the DVD player has 2 channel bass management and retains the subwoofer with high and low pass filters, just like your 3803 does for 2 channel music.

If the DVD player lacks a BM circuit in the 2 channel mode, then I would use the 3803 for 2 channel music via the digital output of the DVD player.

My DVD 2900 does 2 channel BM, so I use it for ALL my music through the analog outputs, and I only use the digital feed for DVD movies.

For an analog feed via the 6 cables, you need to use the Ext. In. function on the 3803. It will also require calibration of all the speakers and sub through the DVD player, and not the 3803.

The only thing the 3803 will affect on the Ext. In. is the Ext. Subwoofer level, which is preset at +15 dB and can be adjusted downward. Use this control, in combination with the DVD player sub level control, to calibrate the subwoofer for both DVD-A and regular 2 channel music.

Are you sufficiently confused yet? :eek:

dave shepard

Originally posted by Dr. Spec

Are you sufficiently confused yet? :eek:

Oh yea There sure is lots more to learn and understand about this new found hobby for me that's for sure. Any "understanding HT" referance books you can recomend?

Thanks for all you done for me

Dave

Dr. Spec

Try HTF FAQ - that's a nice primer.

Also, just stick right here. Electronics can "stick it to you" if you are not careful and understand how they all work. Setting up stuff totally wrong is very easy these days.

danger boy

for DVD audio you need 6 RCA analog cables.. using a digital coax or optical will NOT give you true DVD-a. yes you can run both analog and digital from one player.


BUT you need to switch over to the analog outputs in the player menu to listen to true DVD-audio.

dave shepard

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
Try HTF FAQ - that's a nice primer.

Also, just stick right here. Electronics can "stick it to you" if you are not careful and understand how they all work. Setting up stuff totally wrong is very easy these days.

I will try the FAQ, thanks.

I just don't want to sound like a pest if I ask questions that come so easly to some here. There are some very bright people here that have a very good understanding of this hobby. I'm just tring to understand why and how things work and act (both good and bad).

Thanks for all your patients

Dave

dave shepard

Originally posted by danger boy


BUT you need to switch over to the analog outputs in the player menu to listen to true DVD-audio.

I assume I will have to do that manualy each time I go from a DVD-movie to DVD-A?

danger boy

Originally posted by dave shepard
I assume I will have to do that manualy each time I go from a DVD-movie to DVD-A?

yes, at least in my set up which is normal.. i do have to go into the menu and switch between analog out and bitstream outputs

Dr. Spec

As I stated above, you can leave both the 6 cable set and the digi cable connected to the AVR at the same time.

The only thing you have to "manually" do, is hit an input button on your remote.

At least on my 2900, the output hierarchy is SACD/DVD-A multi-channel analog first, and then if that is not deteted, it will output any other signal (redbook, DTS, DD) to both the analog and digital jacks simultaneously.