Recevers

Fireman99

Any sugestions on a replacement Recever for my h/k 8000. I'm a little disapointed with h/k right now! thinking of returning the recever. Got a h/k recever and a h/k cd player and both have problems already (under a year old) cd is only 3 days old. not to impresed with the Quality.

Atleast I made the right choice with the Polks extreamly happy with their performance.

Dan

phuz

I started with HK and was a little disappointed as well. Moved to Rotel, haven't looked back since.

PolkThug

I picked up my Onkyo 700 for $525 from onecall.com, and don't have any complaints.

phuz

If you are looking for something in the same class (or a notch up in class) and price range as the 8000, look into Rotel, B&K, Sunfire, Outlaw, Adcom, NAD, Arcam, etc. All make seperates, most with the exception of Adcom make recievers.

There are lots of good options. Those are a few personal favorites of mine and other members on the forums.

Fireman99

That's the options i'm exploring not gona go backwards only way to go is up.
dont think it will be a rotel nice piece but i dont care for the look personaly.
Dan

bigsexy1

What don't you like about the 8000? I have one, and have had no problems with it. I feel that it's definitely a step or two up better than a Denon 3802/3 (both of which I've either had or have). I notice that you have 150s. Are you running them set on large, or full range?

Fireman99

Bigsexy I like the 8000. Mine is having some problems. I have talked to the h/k techs and they "never heard of one doing what mine does" so I need to send it in ( 3months old ), and I just picked up a h/k CD player and it already needs to go back for service (3 days old) just a little disapointed the the quality of my h/k's is why I'm considering replacing the recever and returning the CD.

As for the 150's they are set to large.

that is also a consideration when i'm looking to replace the recever (without multiple amps) they require 50 - 500 watts.
Dan

Ceruleance

Dan,
it seems like H/K has problems with quality sometimes, but if you get a good unit then the performance and features usually will beat what the competition has to offer. My suggestion is just wait till you get your H/K fixed, or hope they will give you a new one that works, and then you should be in the clear.

dorokusai

The Sony ES line is a great suggestion by ATC. The previous models are being closed out at great prices....I would only suggest the STR-DA4ES/ 5ES or the 7ES for your needs.

The new ones, 1000ES-5000ES, are using a different type of amplification, so you should certainly listen to one, before you buy it. It may not be the sound you want, coming from HK.

bigsexy1

The 8000 and it's succesor, the 7200 are among the most powerful non digital receivers on the market, if not the most powerful with the possible exeption of the Sunfire. However, they are not enough for a set of 150s set to large. You will need an absolute minimum of a seperate 200 watt per channel power amp for the 150s, and over 300 would be prefered to show just what they are capable of. Is your 8000 going into shutdown protection mode when driven hard? If it is, then there's nothing wrong with it. It's just doing what it's supposed to as it it simply isn't enough for the 150s run on large.


I understand that HK cd/dvd players have more reliability issues than the average manufacturer. I personally wouldn't buy one of theirs myself.

Fireman99

Bigsexy No the 8000 has never shut down on me (I was planing to get another amp to Biamp the 150's) the 8000 has a constent Hiss comming from the speakers on any Analog input including ones that have nothing attached to them (ie input 5 the front one) It also on occasion will start to play a movie and have no voices but all other sounds. Press Stop and play again and the voices come back on. Also running the optical connection for the DVD if I pause the movie and step frame advance then press play to resume the movie there is a noticable timming diffrence in the voices and the lip movements. Just a pain in the butt to have 2 NEW components in my system both h/k 8000 3 months and 8380 3 days and both need service already.
Dan

PS Going to return the CD player any sugestions for a GOOD one that plays HDCD?

bigsexy1

F99, First off, I may be wrong, but as I understand it, your 8000 receiver will decode HDCDs, so you don't even need a cd player that specifically decodes them since your receiver does. If I were going to buy a new CD only player though, I'd have Adcom and NAD on my short list. I've also read about how the Sony DVP S7000, their very first generation DVD player from about '97 or so is now in very hot demand as a CD player because it was/is so good on CDs.

As far as the hiss, I have a B&K receiver that has audible hiss even when in the sleep mode coming from the center channel.
My Adcom seperates also have some. I don't know how bad it is with your HK, but I wouldn't freak out too much if you can hear a little hiss with your ear right next to the speaker when the whole house is dead silent.

Besides, put on some AC/DC or U571, and trust me, you won't hear any hiss then.

As far as the other issues, I'm at a loss. As Ceruleance, said, if you have a good HK receiver or amp with no QC problems, then you are usually set.



Doro, I highly doubt any of those non digital Sony ES receivers could handle a set of 150s. They would shut any of then down so fast it would make your head spin.

danger boy

sorry to hijack for a minute.. but aren't all DD/DTS receivers digital? what's the difference between analog and digital receivers? Which are and which aren't digital? How can you tell?


thanks.. now we'll take you be to our program already in progress.

dorokusai

BigSexy - I have not personally heard a RTi150/Sony configuration ...neither have you, so I would have to say, who knows.

My 2ES ran my SDA1C's, and thats more than a couple drivers....no protection mode, but you could tell the speakers needed more power. It just "felt" like it did, you know?

Is it possible for protection mode issues like on other AVR's? Sure.

If I find out I will let you know either way, good or bad, its still information.

bigsexy1

Doro, I was basing that on the fact that when S&V reveiwed a 4ES, Sony flat out requested that they not do their infamous actual power rating with all channels driven test on it. Sony flat out admitted that the 4es doesn't even come close to actually meeting spec, which was surprising to me because it is so heavy weight wise and is supposedly rated to drive 4 ohm speakers.

Don't get me wrong, for the money, the 4es would make a great pre/pro though, probably the only real competition at all in the same price range to the Denon 3803 in that regard, but a set of 150s on large would manhandle the amps in it.


BTW, you are right, as I've never heard a 150/Sony ES combo, but you didn't know that until I just stated it. How can you go making blanket statements about what others have or have not heard before when you have no clue as to if they have or not? I could have lied and said that I have just to prove my point, but it's not even neccesary.




DB, I meant digital amp receivers.

dorokusai

Originally posted by bigsexy1
Doro, I highly doubt any of those non digital Sony ES receivers could handle a set of 150s. They would shut any of then down so fast it would make your head spin.

The above comment is a blanket statement. A comment like "highly dought" means a "No"...if you had heard the combo, you probably would have chosen different verbage. Well, I don't belong to the psychic friends network, so no, I did not know before you said you didnt know....that you didnt know. :rolleyes:

I don't know how it would do, and that is clear in my previous post.

You need to read more about that review, and infer less. Don't add comments to a review that is simple and flawed in its application. Also, there are some other AVR's that were suprising in their results, both good and bad...but still the test is generic. It makes me laugh when I see this review referenced every month, like it is word of God.

Sony ES does indeed drive 4 ohm speakers, simple fact. I have heard LSi9's on a STRDA1ES, the baby ES, and they sounded just fine. The Sony has a kind of "clinical" sound, not a huge amount of "life" per se, but they did drive the 4 ohm load fine. I have not seen any Sony ES AVR's driving a 4 ohm 5.1+ system....so there's probably a reason for that....but still, who knows? Not me, you? Wait...lemme get my psychic mantra going.........No.

Fireman99

Big you do need a cd player that can read the HDCD I tried had the same thought process as you but doesnt work. the H/K switches to HDCD mode automaticly now that I have a HDCD player. It wouldnt do it before tried two diffrent players as well.
As for my H/K I think your right I'll send it out and see if they can repair it or replace it. Just hate the thought of going without for a few weeks. Dont think the RCA home theater in a box amp I have sitting around is gona power the 150's LOL.
I was thinking of the NAD cd player as well gona have to go and look at one.
Dan

bigsexy1

dorokusai:

"You need to read more about that review, and infer less. Don't add comments to a review that is simple and flawed in its application."


So where did I add any comments to it? Also, why is the review simple and flawed in your view?

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"Also, there are some other AVR's that were suprising in their results, both good and bad..."


True, such as the Marantz 7200 specing out a whopping 20 some watts per channel with all driven, while some others, such as the HK 7200, actually exceeded spec, by a wide margin at that.

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"but still the test is generic. It makes me laugh when I see this review referenced every month, like it is word of God."



It also makes me laugh how if the review had been overwhelmingly positive with hardly any negativity whatsoever at all, you'd damned well better bet your ****$ that Sony ES4 owners would then be trumpeting this review as if it was the word of God.
As it was, the review was pretty much positive on it, but then again, they never say anything entirely negative about anything they review.




I just want to make it clear, I'm in no way, shape, or form trying to bash or diss the 4ES. As I've already stated, it makes an awesome pre/pro for movies, for the money.

Bottom line however, it'a amps wouldn't be strong enough for a set of 150s set to large. Just try it and see what would happen. 150s have sent more powerful receivers than a 4ES retreating.

dorokusai

It's flawed and unfair to every amplifier tested IMO.

Most publications measure the "Max" power output, which is, the most power it can produce without exceeding a "pre-determined" distortion level. Most of them use a far too-low figure for that distortion limit. Most of them also don't even use the SAME distortion level that was used by the original manufacturer either. What does that mean? Well, basically, that you will NEVER get the same results when conducting a test, if from the start you change variables like THD.

A continously variable % that changes from publication to publication. That sounds like a real industry testing standard doesn't it? Unfortunately for you and I, no standard exists.

The closest you could get would be to use a Fidelity Firewall type test, the maximum amount of wattage without audible distortion. If you test a amplifer at a value other than its rated distortion level, lower in this case, its unfair to say that it "doesn't reach its rated power". Just think about that for a minute. You could raise the distortion levels, still inaudible to you and I, and reach different power levels on ALL amplifiers.

HCC uses FF for testing and the 4ES is rated quite nicely. It also happens to be rated nicely into 4ohms.

There is more information regarding testing such as this that is available on the internet. S&V should not be the stand alone reference point for anyone, especially that contrived test. Try http://www.rane.com/par-f.html for definitions of audio terms. The explanations often contain some real good links to even further correct information.

We will never know if it can handle the RTi150, until someone tests that function. To say that it cannot whatsoever, is another blanket statement. I don't care either way, I own neither. What larger units have been sent retreating? Just wondering.

The 4ES has received great reviews in HCC, its recommended, and Stereophile also rated it nicely. I don't think that a single 4ES owner from this board has ever "trumpeted" its accomplishment in a thread to date.

The S&V publication is as full of **** as the space cadets from Stereophile. They all pander and shuffle things around until it looks good, bad or ugly. You know that too.

Fireman99

Big my mistake on the HDCD player I got rid of my 8380 and got a CDR 26 It does not play HDCD and the recever Is able to pick up the HDCD signal and use it. Thanx for the Tip
Dan

bigsexy1

Originally posted by dorokusai
It's flawed and unfair to every amplifier tested IMO.

"Most publications measure the "Max" power output, which is, the most power it can produce without exceeding a "pre-determined" distortion level. Most of them use a far too-low figure for that distortion limit. Most of them also don't even use the SAME distortion level that was used by the original manufacturer either. What does that mean? Well, basically, that you will NEVER get the same results when conducting a test, if from the start you change variables like THD.

A continously variable % that changes from publication to publication. That sounds like a real industry testing standard doesn't it? Unfortunately for you and I, no standard exists.

The closest you could get would be to use a Fidelity Firewall type test, the maximum amount of wattage without audible distortion. If you test a amplifer at a value other than its rated distortion level, lower in this case, its unfair to say that it "doesn't reach its rated power". Just think about that for a minute. You could raise the distortion levels, still inaudible to you and I, and reach different power levels on ALL amplifiers."




Doro, I actually agree with you, but at the same time, doesn't S&V use the same standard in all of their tests? It's not like they are changing the method or standard at random on each and every single receiver that they test. They are all measured the same way, even if it was different than how each manufacturer did it (which obviously explains why some of S&V's measurements were far different than some of the manufacturer's), so it does give at least a good baseline as to how the receivers stack up against each other, even if it isn't the be all, end all final standard. Besides, at Sony's own request, the 4ES was never even measured in the first place, so it doesn't even apply to it specifically. Sony is one of their biggest advertisers, if not THE biggest, and they certianly aren't going to try to go out of their way to alienate Sony.

---

"HCC uses FF for testing and the 4ES is rated quite nicely. It also happens to be rated nicely into 4ohms.

There is more information regarding testing such as this that is available on the internet. S&V should not be the stand alone reference point for anyone, especially that contrived test. Try http://www.rane.com/par-f.html for definitions of audio terms. The explanations often contain some real good links to even further correct information.

We will never know if it can handle the RTi150, until someone tests that function. To say that it cannot whatsoever, is another blanket statement. I don't care either way, I own neither. What larger units have been sent retreating? Just wondering.

The 4ES has received great reviews in HCC, its recommended, and Stereophile also rated it nicely. I don't think that a single 4ES owner from this board has ever "trumpeted" its accomplishment in a thread to date.

The S&V publication is as full of **** as the space cadets from Stereophile. They all pander and shuffle things around until it looks good, bad or ugly. You know that too.

Again, I stated that the 4ES is a fine machine. I can also state pretty much irrefutably that a HK 8000 like F99 already has is a more powerful receiver than a 4ES is. As for a 4ES driving 150s, I really don't care either, as I will probably never own a 4ES, plus I'll soon be trading my 150s up for 12s (which will be an even harder load to drive than the 150s) and this will be my final post on this particular subject.

dorokusai

BS - WE weren't even talking about the HK8000, what's that have to do with it. No kidding, that is a nice, strong piece. I agree that it is more capable than the 4ES.

S&V picked a value which they felt was fair across the board. It wasn't, period. It's not about "Fair". Some won, some lost, its a given, considering the fact that no manufacturers rate their equipment in the same manner. We, the consumer lose in this whole process, because the information contained in ratings is sometimes highly suspect. Sony is unfortunately a notorious number fiddler.

"They did not release the figure they obtained for the 4ES all-channels test, although they did release some 2-channel and 1-channel numbers, both of which far exceeded its specifications for both power output and low distortion." - Aaron B/ Sony Forum

I will refer to you as Mr. Backpeddler from now on. I would hope that the forum can see the difference between our posts. You state your like of the 4ES for a pre-pro, then run around in a circle screaming RTi150. Whatever, I should have known this wouldn't end up being constructive.

Fireman99 - I apologize for getting way way off track. It was not my intention to hijack your thread and it turn out to be Sony on trial issue. Your HK is nice from what I read. Rotel, NAD, Outlaw and the like minded animals may be your best bet if it is not performing to your expectations.

Grimster74

Can't beleive I've missed this post. I currently own a 4ES receiver, and my neighbor currently owns the RTi150's. Sounds like I have something to do over this 4 day weekend coming up.

bigsexy1

Doro, I honestly wasn't planning on another single post on this particular subject after my last one, but now I feel compelled to after the uncalled for part of your last one.

First off, we were talking about the HK 8000, as that is what F99 said he already has in his very first post (even though he was having issues with his), so it was/is relavant and valid. There are only a very, very few receivers with enough drive to even have a chance at handling a set of 150s, and the HK8000 is definitely on that short list.

Second, if you already realize that a HK8000 is superior to a Sony 4ES, then why did you recomend something less than what he already had in the first place, a step or two backwards, so to speak. What sense does that make?

As for S&V's test, no it isn't perfect by any means, but at least it is a uniform standard that will show you at least a basic idea of how the manufacturer's true power ratings stack up against each other. Isn't it fair if each receiver is subjected to the same criteria? If nothing else, it is a first stepping stone starting point at the very least. Usually the ones who did poorly on it are the ones who criticize it the most, as the ones who did well praise it. That is only natural and to be expected.

As for your little "back peddeler" remark, well, it's not even worth responding to, except that I will say that I thought that we were pretty much having a good, positive, constructive discussion here without making it personal with any negativity, but you were the one who decided to throw that all out the door now. Why, I don't know. My best guess is because of frustration, but I'm not going to respond in kind. My posts have been consistant in praising the 4ES's pre/pro section, while stating that it's amps would not really be strong enough to drive a set of 150s set on large at loud volumes.

And yes, I also hope the rest of the forum can see the difference in our posts.

dorokusai

F99 was not pleased with his current choice, regardless of it being a very nice AVR. It was not performing to his expectations.

I responded originally to ATC's comment on the digital Sony line. And it is not a step or two back. F99 asked for suggestions, I offered two suggestions of my own. As stated before, I said what WE(meaning you and I) were talking about, not the original thread that was derailed, with no help from me.

Perhaps the backpeddling comment was unwarranted, but you also bowed out of the "good, positive, constructive" conversation we were having. I thought that you would offer a little more on the subject, other than it being your last comment. That is what prompted my statement, sorry. Frustration? Yea, maybe...I don't even know.

We will just have to agree, to disagree. I value your comments on the forum, and did not intend to offend you or drive you away from what was/is a good thread.

Fireman99

WOW didnt see this post going into this direction. As BS had sugested to me I think I will sent the 8000 out for service and see if it performs a little better after it returns. I supose performance Isnt the problem it was a few other little things it is doing the drives me nuts. the performance I'm getting out of it in Movies and music Is what I expect of it but a little short on the power for the 150's. This I hope will be solved soon I'm going to get another straight power amp for the 150's and biamp the highs and lows and just use the 8000 as a preamp for the 150's and run the rest from the 8000's power.
Thanks to all for the recever help and input it is all valued information. I beleve that there is no better sorce of information then from people who own the products.
As for my 8000 this post started cause I was a little pissed at h/k I got the 8000 and a 8380 cd and both need service 2 strikes. The CD was an open box maybe not h/k's fault. I returned it for a full refund and upgraded to the CDR26 and I'm much happier now.
just got to fix the 8000
thanx again to all for the help!
Dan

dorokusai

F99 - Good luck, BS's advice was sound advice. Let us know how it turns out.

bigsexy1

Doro, no problem, we're cool. And if anything I wrote served to set you off like that in the first place, I apologize, as I assure you I didn't intend for it to if it in fact did.

F99, definitely don't give up on the 8000 just yet. HK seems to be hit or miss as far as quality control these days (probably because they are now made in China, but then again, so is Rotel, and they don't seem to have quite as much QC problems), but if you get one with no issues, then you are pretty much well set. The 8000 is right up there with other brands flagships such as Denon 4802/5803, etc. IMHO, it is even better than the HK 7200 that replaced it. You can do better than a HK8000, but you would be very hard pressed to do so though, and for a lot more cash at that, so much so that it probably wouldn't be worth the price difference.

dorokusai

BS - I am 100% cool, same apology goes here, no harm intended at all.