So whats the deal with bass

scottyboy76

It seems to be very difficult for a speaker to achieve quality bass reproduction, even from the higher end makers.

The first that comes to mind is magnepan, im not an expert, but from my reading here and elsewhere, many are still trying to find satisfactory bass response to go with the incredible reproduction in the other parts of the spectrum from their speakers.

Also, if im correct, you will spend a great deal of money to get a sub that comes anywhere near the sound quality and musicality of even good quality speakers.

One thing that got me thinkin about this is polks new 707s with the oval driver.

I first saw these in the older kef speakers, im sure its in others as well.

I truly dont know how well polk has managed bass with this driver in the 707s, have not read reviews or anything, its just the photos i have seen made me remember the kefs and its intrigued me.

Any thoughts would be interesting, you will never know how informative some of your conversations about your experiences with our hobby have been to me.

F1nut

It was Mr. Grand that once said something to the effect of, it takes a large radiating surface and a man's amp to get good bass.

transmaster

Check this one out from parts express. I am really thinking about getting one. It might be overkill but still. a 1000 watts and a pair of 12 inch drivers.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-766

SCompRacer

I think there are plenty of speakers that do deep and clean, articulate bass well. Do you have any acoustic treatments in your listening room? If not I'm gonna play the acoustic treatment/bass trap card.:cheesygrin: Before I added four, four foot tall GIK Tri-Traps in my listening room, I had added subs to speakers that didn't need them...all due to bass cancellation issues. Vamp and Sofi Needs a Ladder sounds damn good here, and that's with only two long excursion 10" SEAS woofers in 8 foot long folded transmission line bass modules. I'm talking bass you can feel, that makes the floor and things on tables vibrate. Of course, a good amp is also needed.

A real ear opener for me was hearing speakers like mine in a small listening room. Powered by the same 600WPC @ 4 Ohm amp. The guy had Owens Corning 703 on all walls, floor to ceiling and felt that was all he needed cause his speakers sounded good in there. There was no decent bass in the room with the speakers like mine, so obviously my speakers "sucked." But outside the room in the hallway, there it was, that great bass. I'll never forget that experience and continue to preach 'treat the room.'

tonyb

Scotty,
There are many speakers that do bass well, or are at least capable of it. The trick is matching the speaker with the room and electronics. Some people demo a speaker, like the sound, get them home in their room and it sounds like crap. If you take a big floorstander and put it in a room thats over dampened with heavy carpets, furniture,drapes, or against a wall sandwiched in, it's going to sound way different. Next, some don't power them properly either resulting in lackluster performance.

Now if your a bass head, many speakers also do exceptionally well in that dept too or you can get a subwoofer or 2 to pound you into the next room. The right tools for the right room as I like to say.

mhardy6647

F1nut wrote: »

It was Mr. Grand that once said something to the effect of, it takes a large radiating surface and a man's amp to get good bass.

...and it was Col. Paul Wilbur Klipsch who said, in essence, "You cannot miniaturize the wavelength of the fundamental frequency of a 32 foot organ pipe" (16-ish Hz, in case anyone was wondering) The Col. wasn't a big believer in small speakers (the Heresy notwithstanding).

EDIT: Heh, OK, die Urquelle :-)
http://www.fritsdevries.info/historie/heritage/reviewsHERITAGE/hohumFF.html

...it seems that every year someone "reinvents" one of the discarded speaker designs of the past. Or they purport to modify the laws of physics by miniaturizing a 32-foot wavelength.

tonyb

As we like to say.....go big or go home.

mhardy6647

tonyb wrote: »

As we like to say.....go big or go home.

I'd concur.



(and the nature of these drivers is such that they need a subwoofer to go deep - but what they do, they do with beaucoups impact)

falconcry72

As for Magnepans, I'd like to add that Maggies have some of the BEST BASS of any speakers I've ever heard... the problem is that they don't go super low..... but the bass that's THERE, is EXCELLENT, articulate, textural, extremely well-integrated bass.

My 1.6's roll off around 40hz, but above that, they're great. You may be surprised at the bass I get out of them with my VK-500. I used to have a pair of 3.6's, they rolled off around 35hz, but again, the bass that was there was excellent. I don't know any speakers that will give you great bass and be flat to 20hz, excpet maybe the Focal Grande Utopias or something along those lines. So, if you HAVE to have bass in that 10hz-35-hz region, then you HAVE to run an external subwoofer, so you might as well get a speaker that does everything ABOVE 35hz very well.

One sub that I'm very much interested in is the HSU ULS-15. Sealed box 15. Flat to 10hz in most rooms, with real extension to 5 hz, and you know that thing has got to sound clean. Only about a grand new.

SCompRacer

But as Rich started moving the treatments around, everyone could very clearly hear the difference in sound. It was like alternately throwing a blanket over the speaker and then taking it off. Everything changed! Soundstage, bass, resolution, imaging... all those words we audio people love to use changed in a snap. I was sold.

An older thread but it still applies. Blake (blakeh) treated his room after hearing what they did in mine. So did Duell (lessisnevermore). And I used to think my large room with high ceilings was immune to acoustic problems.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?86154-Room-Treatment-Revelations

mhardy6647

No enclosed space is immune to acoustics problems... it's a Helmholtz thing :-(

transmaster

I will probably end up with a Polk subwoofer. There was another thread where somebody asked what the best Polk Subwoofer to go with a Monitor 10B the model sited at the time is not longer in production, so I don't know which one it might be now. As I recall the model picked had a 10" driver. What I am wondering is the Polks, as so many other subwoofers, have the option on switching from down firing to front firing. When is one better then the other?

jbooker82

DSW Pros can be set up as ethire front or down fireing. You can get the 660 (12") sub for $359 on sale from new egg.

scottyboy76

Lasareath wrote: »

I love me some good Bass

http://bbq.about.com/od/fishseafoodrecipes/r/bl50716a.htm

good ol sal, dont be so scarce big guy

skrol

Lasareath wrote: »

I also like to drink some Bass every once in while when I find it on Tap.

Fresh from the Bass-O-Matic?

astar13656

Lasareath wrote: »

I love me some good Bass

http://bbq.about.com/od/fishseafoodrecipes/r/bl50716a.htm

That's what I'm talkin' about!

snake1

I would also comment that, good amplification notwithstanding, source content is a big player in the bass dept. Even before an external amp, I remember watching Terminator Salvation and my walls shaking with each big robotic movement. I'm beginning to understand that quality of media for music will also play a big role in bass production as well. Ahhhh, just how deep does the rabbit hole go?????

Face

The room is bass reproduction's worst enemy...and treatments only go so far. If you want clean bass, unless you're very fortunate and have near perfect room dimensions and an ideal sweet spot location, multiple subs and/or dipole/ripole/OB bass can fix most bass issues.

logo896

I used to have a pair of rti12"s and the bass was amazing and tight. I went through a huge amount of test subs between mid level energy mirage klipsch and of course Polk. I had the psw10, psw505, and the bipolar digital subs I don't remover what model it was but it was like 1200 rms. What I found was, I love Polk speakers and with a proper amp they really open up. I also found the only subwoofers that are both musical for things like daft punk, but dynamic for movies are the specialty brands of subwoofers. I had the hsu vtf 3 but ultimately found higher powered sealed subwoofers met my needs best. I have been most happy with dual svs 400rms dsp subs. I think they are sb12 nsd"s. there is something to be said about dsp subs that don't really get a chance to distort. Consider figuring out if you need a ported or sealed subwoofer for your needs.

Msabot1

Feeling bass response is infinitely better than hearing it....right?

logo896

Msabot1 wrote: »

Feeling bass response is infinitely better than hearing it....right?

+1


I'm not concerned aBout feeling it. That's why i have not invested in a subwoofer that hits in the low teens. I can say the dual sub setup helps with the funny acoustics of my room.

Face

You don't need response in the low teens to feel it.

logo896

Mine is a very solid 21 Hz and I am happy with it.

PrazVT

I've refrained from using subs with my tower speakers the last few years. But the last month or so, I've added an Epik Legend into the mix w/ the Q900s. I'm still outputting full range on the Q900s, but I've given the sub 60Hz and below duties. Bass response is clear and effective w/ the towers alone, but the sub picks up some of the details that drop off on the towers at the very low end. Plus the extra thump is nice without being obnoxious.

Also, it does depend on the recording. There are certain albums (like Phoenix's 'Wolfgang Amadeus' or The Strokes' 'Angles') where the Q900s kick **** regardless. But again..it's more about the quantity of thump than missing details for me. I may very well remove the sub from the mix though - philosophically, it's bothering me to have it there lol.