The best speakers I have ever heard, hands down.

kuntasensei

As some of you know, I have had some serious bad luck with buying used amps. Eight months ago, I picked up an Adcom GFA-5503 off of eBay that worked for about 6 weeks before it flaked out and started giving me noise in the right channel that my only local shop could not track down. In the last few weeks, I've bought both a Parasound HCA-2003 and HCA-1206 from forum members here, with the 2003 randomly flaking out in a different channel every time you cycle the power and with the 1206 having a blown 5th channel and constant low-level hum, despite both amps being very well packed by the sellers and being in working order when shipped.

Sadly, there are no shops around my hometown of Mobile, Alabama that seem to do work on these sort of amps other than the one place that failed miserably with the Adcom. A friend who does studio work hooked me up over Facebook with a guy by the name of Bill Roberts over in Pensacola, Florida. A quick search for "Bill Roberts audio" turned up tons of interesting info on the guy (including that he used to work for Warner Bros., turns up on all the usual audiophile boards, etc.), and from talking to him on the phone, he seemed to know his stuff and claimed he could fix all three amps... and if he had any trouble with the Parasounds, he said he knows John Curl. People say things like that... but from talking to him, you could tell he wasn't blowing smoke.

With some trepidation, I decided to load all three of the amps in the car and take a quick hour-long drive to Pensacola. I arrived at what was basically a trailer home with a few additions. Inside, the place was wall-to-wall with audio cabinets, parts, wires, a workbench with some very nice Yamaha monitors and various other test speakers, etc. After discussing the issues I was having with each amp, Bill took me back to his mastering room - an addition to the back of the trailer home. Inside, there was everything you'd expect - old reel-to-reel, a mixing board, several PCs chock full of mastering files, etc. And then there were the speakers that Bill Roberts designed. You can see them here:
http://www.ontrackaudio.com/directorate.html

The setup consisted of Belles amps, a custom Belles tube pre, and outboard crossovers for the speakers, with everything connected by Kimber Cables. Audio was fed from his PC to an outboard Belles DAC. So then he pulls up some of his files and gives me a demo. First up was a remaster of Sammy Davis Jr.'s Mr. Bojangles. The next few minutes were pretty much audio nirvana, with every detail imaging perfectly in thin air between the massive speakers. Over the next 45 minutes or so, we went through a wide array of music, including Madonna (in Q-Sound, which was interesting) and (the highlight for me) Tower of Power. As we sat there listening to Tower of Power, he pulled out a SPL meter and set it in front of us. It was registering 105dB C-weighted... and yet, we were still able to hold a conversation. Simply the cleanest sound I have heard from a set of speakers. He pulled up a song that he mastered that had an intentional 5Hz punctuation to the kick drum on occasion... and it was like nothing I have ever accomplished in my home theater. You could feel it in your stomach, and throughout, highs and mids remained perfectly solid.

So now, though I'll certainly be happy next week when he finishes checking/repairing my three amps (fingers crossed), I'll always know that my modest little setup just can't achieve nearly the sound that I heard in that patched-in section of trailer. If I lived the kind of life where I could just plunk down $30k on a set of speakers, you can bet your sweet **** I would own a set of those Directorates. Regardless, from talking to him in-depth about audio and amp design, I feel pretty confident that he's going to get my amps back in working order (though the Adcom will likely end up for sale here once repaired). My excursion into the world of separates has been kind of a rough ride so far... but if it hadn't been, I would never have gotten to hear those speakers, so... in a weird way, it was kinda' worth it!

mhardy6647

FWIW, John Curl is, IME, a pretty easy person to get to know. He used to be quite active at audioasylum and, consequently, I have corresponded by e-mail with him several times.

Cannot speak to the loudspeakers. FWIW, they're antithetical to my philosophy of effective loudspeaker design (I like them very, very simple - even crossover-less when appropriate)... but they could sound fine (and "my philosophy" is worth about as much as the bits used to transmit them via the world-wide web).

drgalexo

Sweet!! You say he designed the speakers, the write up sounds as though he built them as well. They look awesome, would love to hear them. I think you can be condfident he will fix your amps.

BlueFox

kuntasensei wrote: »

, he pulled out a SPL meter and set it in front of us. It was registering 105dB C-weighted... and yet, we were still able to hold a conversation. Simply the cleanest sound I have heard from a set of speakers.

105 db is still 105 db, distorted or clean. It is nice to listen to music that loud when it is as clear as in the 70db range. However, conversation is in the 60db range, so it would seem that a conversation is not possible in the middle of 105db music. Maybe if you are shouting at each other. When I crank my stereo it amazes me when I think it is not loud because it sounds so good, and then somebody talks and while I see their mouth move, there are no words. Oops, we are in the 90-100db range. Time to back off. Sorry officer.

mhardy6647

Absolutely true. 105 dB is very, very loud.


source: http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/noise/health_effects/soundpropagation.html

cnh

Sorry about your amp misfortunes. I have almost no experience with anything but two channel power amps, "none" have failed me so far?

But I love stories about guys like this, out there, middle of nowhere, his makeshift home/repair shop (that you'd probably never know was there. And to experience a totally high end system in the back. lol It all sounds like an Indie movie--where is it "playing", I'm there!

One thing that is not clear to me is, who designs and produces those speakers? Bill or someone else?

Hope it all works out for the best. Cool experience!

BTW, my daughter's loudest scream as measured by my Rat Shack SPL meter almost hit 120! The girl's got some "pipes" as well as a phenomenal singing voice (only 15).

cnh

kuntasensei

Apparently, he builds them. One room was filled with cabinets, and he showed me boxes of parts. He explained how the cabinets were built - with sheets of wood bonded together and milled out to create the internal chambers - resulting in a sealed speaker that ends up being like 200 pounds.

And I'm just tellin' ya... We were having a conversation with the meter bouncing around in the +100s - maybe talking a bit louder than if the room were quiet, but not shouting at all. And after some time listening at that level, I didn't feel any listening fatigue whatsoever. Not a level I would listen to on a regular basis by any means (and I was getting kinda' nervous about it, honestly), but it was pretty impressive to experience and not feel like it was all a distorted mess. And it's one of the few times that speakers truly disappeared and it just sounded like you were in the room with the band. Best reproduction of piano that I've ever heard. Well, short of being in the room with someone playing a piano, naturally.

Here's hoping the amps are in good hands. From the equipment he had on his bench, I feel fairly confident. But ultimately, if it all goes to hell, I think I'll just stay away from trying to go separates for now. It sure has been problematic! I'm hoping that it's just minor shipping-related issues that can be easily repaired, but I'll update when he tells me more. He had the 1206 on the bench last night and had already printed out all the schematics for the three amps, so I'm hoping he'll knock them all out by next weekend.

Oldfatdogs

Good story I hope he gets you squared away.Don't give up on separates yet,they opened my ears to what things should sound like.
Dan

Devlon

kuntasensei wrote: »

As some of you know, I have had some serious bad luck with buying used amps. Eight months ago, I picked up an Adcom GFA-5503 off of eBay that worked for about 6 weeks before it flaked out and started giving me noise in the right channel that my only local shop could not track down.

Just for sake of information:

Tom Brucker
Hi Tech Service
2934 Nolensville Pk.
Nashville, TN 37211
615-331-9241
hitech@BIRCH.net

Is authorized on just about all brands of home audio. They are a little slow, but my god, they have rooms and rooms full of gear to repair. They are great on Adcoms. I've used them myself. Great bunch of guys to deal with.

kuntasensei

Good to know, Devlon. I was actually gonna send the Adcom off to Big Sky Audio to do a full restoration, but then the Parasounds went up for sale and that seemed like a better plan. Had it been anyone but me, I'm sure it would have worked out. :cheesygrin:

EndersShadow

LOL.... sorry about your luck.

Once you get it sorted out I am sure you will be grinning ear to ear and it will be well worth it. I know I have had a couple issues with some amp purchases myself but I fully believe that once working I will be thinking I would do it all over again.

halo71

Wow those are sexy! I figured those middle columns would be OB's?

SugarmillMan

Devlon- Like you, I have an older Adcom GFA 7500 and like it very much for my speakers. However, one channel is also starting to develop that slight hum sound. Is this likely the end of it?

4406bbl

kuntasensei wrote: »

Good to know, Devlon. I was actually gonna send the Adcom off to Big Sky Audio to do a full restoration, but then the Parasounds went up for sale and that seemed like a better plan. Had it been anyone but me, I'm sure it would have worked out. :cheesygrin:

NO, it would not have worked out any different for anyone else, you can bet those amps were bad when shipped to you. I bought 2 Adcoms off this board and both had the hum and high dc in the outputs. Shipping damage my rear. I had 1 of them fixed and the repair guy claims he has shipped hundreds of amps with never a DOA unless it was smashed. I guess buyer beware on a used amp here, I have never had a problem with other used gear just the amps.

Face

When you combine high efficiency, high quality drivers with a good design, you can listen at higher SPL's due to less power compression, distortion, etc... A downward tilt in response helps too. But, as others have advised, you have to be more cautious with the volume.

SCompRacer

Sorry to hear about your amp troubles but congrats on your recent listening experience.

Fortunately I became aware of hearing loss early and took precautions in my profession and loud hobbies. I have very good hearing for my age. My wife blindsided me with a hearing test recently when she took her hearing aides in for adjustment. The tech (female) showed my wife that it was selective hearing as I can hear the frequencies of her normal vocal range very well.:cheesygrin:

Still, every now and then I love to spin something like Smells Like Teen Spirit and crank it way up. Then I'm fine for a month or so until the next fix.:twisted::cheesygrin:

kuntasensei

Oh, I would never listen that loud on my own setup. Hell, I usually don't go above -15dB from reference (which is why the amps are more about sound quality than being able to crank it up to crazy levels). But how often do you get to hear speakers that nice?

kuntasensei

Just an update: We're on week 11 of waiting on my amps to be repaired. Every time he fixes one problem, it ends up exposing a weakness further down the signal chain. My Parasound HCA-1206 and Adcom GFA-5503 are supposedly in perfect working order now, but when he got the voltages back to spec on the Parasound HCA-2003, he tested it under load and two of the resistors on the board for the center channel amp burned out.

He consulted some guy named Thorsten Loesch (who shows up as an audio guy in the UK if you Google him) and is now replacing all of the resistors on all three boards with a different rating because (from what he told me) Parasound is running too close to the tolerances in their design, and as the capacitors settle in, it stresses the system. He's also replacing some of the weaker wiring and patching up some of the connectors that could potentially cause issues.

He's supposed to be bringing them to my house tomorrow, after apologizing for taking so long with them because his dad was in the hospital. So either his "improvements" are actually going to pan out... or I've just wasted a lot of money trying to get into separates with used gear. Guess I'm gonna find out!

leroyjr1

You've had a rash of bad luck. Hope everything works out for you.

kuntasensei

Yeah, the bad luck continues. My two 3-channel amps (the HCA-2003 and the Adcom GFA-5503 that I'm not using) are now working... but the HCA-1206 still has a very low-level hum and any speaker I hook to channel 5 sounds like it's crackling with high frequencies. The tech is stumped, because his bench tests show all channels identical with the same signal. Something odd is going on. I tried swapping interconnects (brand new BJC cables), tried hooking other speakers to that channel (which then make the crackling sound), tried plugging it straight to the wall instead of through my Belkin PF60 (which made no difference). He's gonna come back out to my house and listen to the problem, but I imagine it's going to end up with him again.

I'm sure when he figures it out, it's going to be something ridiculously simple. :P

timalan

Wow. Crazy frustrating. Sorry to hear about all the troubles... hopefully it works out. (Crossing my fingers) so far I've done pretty well with used gear, but I always know its a gamble. With older gear, it either needs to be thrift store/yard sale prices, or I try to get it AFTER someone else has spent the time/money doing the refurb... good luck.

Bigerik

I've gone through times like that when it really seems like nothing will ever work again. A Bose Wave radio starts looking very attractive....

Best of luck with it.

mhardy6647

Duuude! Fancy running into you here...

inspiredsports

kuntasensei wrote: »

Yeah, the bad luck continues. My two 3-channel amps (the HCA-2003 and the Adcom GFA-5503 that I'm not using) are now working... but the HCA-1206 still has a very low-level hum and any speaker I hook to channel 5 sounds like it's crackling with high frequencies. The tech is stumped, because his bench tests show all channels identical with the same signal. Something odd is going on. I tried swapping interconnects (brand new BJC cables), tried hooking other speakers to that channel (which then make the crackling sound), tried plugging it straight to the wall instead of through my Belkin PF60 (which made no difference). He's gonna come back out to my house and listen to the problem, but I imagine it's going to end up with him again.

I'm sure when he figures it out, it's going to be something ridiculously simple. :P

Since it was pure on Bill's bench, could it be something as simple a cable TV ground loop in your home? Seems to me I remember something a bout a different grounding scheme in that amp.

kuntasensei

inspiredsports wrote: »

Since it was pure on Bill's bench, could it be something as simple a cable TV ground loop in your home? Seems to me I remember something a bout a different grounding scheme in that amp.

Nope... I've got an isolator on my cable TV for that reason ('cause it played hell with my projector). And I'm running everything through the Belkin PF60, which should cover my bases there (though I did try straight to wall and disconnecting cable). Bill actually double-checked and reinforced the grounding while he had it apart.

Interesting thing happened last night: I pulled my heights off of channels 5 and 6 and put them back on my AVR, leaving my four surrounds on the working channels of the HCA-1206. The hum wasn't there anymore for some reason... but then, something didn't sound right. So I pulled out my SPL meter to do a level check. Without me changing anything else, the left surround that was on channel 2 of the amp had dropped +8dB in level. Gain knob still maxed out, same level trim on AVR. I start poking around on the net to see if there are any common problems with the HCA-1206, and what do I find? John Curl (the amp's designer) saying that Parasound used under-rated capacitors (i.e. 63v caps on a 65v rail) and that they fail in less than 10 years. So I keep digging... and find that the caps are wired in pairs, feeding channels 1+3, 2+5, and 4+6. See what I see? The two channels that are giving me problems are served by the same pair of capacitors. Currently running the four surrounds off 1, 3, 4, and 6 with no hum and no sound issues.

Could be a coincidence... but I figure at least this gives us a direction to look in. Wouldn't be the first time caps have tested okay and shown no external leakage but still been in failure. Gonna get it back to Bill and have him check those caps out again, and if that's the problem, he's gonna go ahead and do all 6 (since replacements have to be soldered with wires, because the screw-in type at that rating don't exist anymore). This may well turn into a full restoration! Heh...

ddsski

:exclaim:Try listening to a new pair of Golden Ear Tritron 2's You may be surprised!!!

kuntasensei

Just a follow up:
Parasound's service techs said the issue with the 6-channel doesn't sound like the caps, but they gave us some ideas of what to check. The guy is coming back to the house this week to pick it up.

Unfortunately, last night the HCA-2003 started having crackling in the left channel when I was watching a movie. Turned the amp off and back on and it cleared up. 30 minutes later, crackling came back. Turned it off and back on again, crackling was gone... until 10 minutes later when the RIGHT channel started doing it. The tech's gonna come to the house and check the whole signal chain to figure out what the hell is going on here, but I can't imagine it's my AVR (Onkyo TX-NR1007) or interconnects (brand spankin' new Blue Jeans Cable BJC-1s). Gonna hook the Adcom GFA-5503 that he (hopefully) fixed to run until he can figure out what's going on with my HCA-1206 and HCA-2003.

So basically, I am cursed... and despite the tech going over everything circuit by circuit, the problem has reappeared for no apparent reason. And if the problem with the 2003 is intermittent, it's going to be a pain for anyone to troubleshoot. Bought both of these amps from Polkies (swegyptian and Inspector 24)... and I totally believe both of them when they say they were in working condition when they shipped them. Kinda' kicking myself for trying to get into GOOD amps on the cheap... and thinking that if these are just a lost cause, I'm gonna' buy a damn Emotiva XPA-3, run my surrounds off the receiver and throw these stupid amps in the Gulf of Mexico.

bigskyaudio

Don't give up on those amplifiers as they can be repaired and are worthwhile keeping to restore & upgrade.

Face

Want something that sounds good, is reliable, and gives off very little heat: http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/339143 or http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/339145

kuntasensei

I e-mailed Parasound and they said the problem with the 2003 sounds like defective speaker output relays. Parts should be cheap and it's supposedly fairly easy to replace them, so fingers crossed. Tony with Parasound also gave me a few things for my guy to check based on what I told him the 1206 was doing, so maybe the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train.

And Face, neither of those are remotely in my budget. I was trying to do this on the cheap. That'll teach me! :cheesygrin: