Faking It

sntnsupermen131

taken from the December 2003 Car and Driver Magazine about the "Superfour Challenge" article in the September edition
pg. 23 under the "Backfires" section
"I really enjoyed reading about those modified four-bangers. Why? Because it has proved once again that you cannot substitute beef for rice. None of these mega-modified midget-mobiles could beat a stock '03 Ford SVT Cobra. C'mon! A $35,000 Jackson Racing Ford SVT Focus?! Sure, some of that cost went into suspension, brakes, and tires. But if you put real horsepower into a Focus, you'd have to modify the rest of it. And the $42,000 'Honey-I-shrunk-the-minivan' Civic SI? This car is destined to have that annoying muffler that sounds like a hole's been punched in it.
What's the lesson? You can talk 'fourgasm' all you want. But we, the V-8 enthusiasts, know you're faking it."
I saw this article and had to read it again because I thought it was so funny, yet so true.
-Cody

Wolfmag

4 bangers have their purpose. From what i've heard, they're not so self-destructive and in general, more efficient. Look at Rally cars! What better example of durability can be shown compared to the cars that compete in Rally championships. There's a reason why nearly all rally cars use turbo'd 4 & 6 bangers.

Anyways, check out this website if you'd like to see some quick 4 bangers in action. Go to his download section. He has a few videos of riced out cars racing america's favorite muscle cars: cameros, vipers, etc.


http://www.cheesefrog.com/

Keske944

The reason that you never see a v8 in a rally race is because of the restrictions that were put on rally racing. These restrictions were much like the ones that were put on the NHRA when they no longer allowed Hemi engines to compete. Dodge was winning everything so they said "No more Hemis." I believe that this rule has now changed and Hemi's are once again allowed to dominate the field. In the late 80 Porsche was winnning everything in rally racing with it 450 hp twin turbo AWD 959. This car used a horizontally opposed boxer six cylinder engine and it was fast. So the powers that be decided to restrict rally engines to 2.0l. Porsch had not made a 2.0l engine since the late 60's and they weren't going to make one speciffically for rally racing either. If this restriction was not put into place Porsche, BMW, Ferarri, Dodge, and Chevy would be running thier 6, 10, and 12 bangers to victory every time. Not to mention blowing away any previous record held by a 4 banger. I drive a 4 banger. I have a Porsche 944 with a 2.5l inline 4. The 944 and the 968 4 bangers are still considered some of the best 4 bangers ever made. EVER. However, I cannot stand seeing these rice boys and thier sooped up hondas. 99% of them have just put on a loud exhast, a fancy paint job, new wheels, and a body kit. If you add up all the cosmetic changes that they have done to thier cars plus the cost fo thier car, these looser could have gone out and bought something decent like a Corvette or a Porsch Boxter.

Bottom line is this...

99% of all rice boys will be a quick snack for all the 944's, vette's, BMW's, and Stratus's that are out looking for a littel something to munch on. Save your money and buy something decent. If you want a 4 baner that badly there are better ones out there than what honda puts out. Look at the used 944's and 968's you can pick one up in good condition for 5-25k. Now if you will excuse me I'm a little hungry and a honda or two is on the menu tonight...

Wolfmag

Ok so maybe that's true about Rally cars, honestly, I don't keep up with Rally Car history...

But,

Don't get me wrong. It's not that I'm entirely against 8-mpg gas guzzling large american engines with wheels on them. Hell, we got our man, Bush to get us that oil! And it's not that I'm a Honda fan boy even.

What do I drive? I drive a cute little, Nissan 1990 240sx. I bought it for $3800 bucks back in 1999 w/ 90k miles and since then I've added another 70k plus miles. Besides my driver seat eventually wearing out, it has been the most reliable son of a **** I've ever had. And don't think it's because I keep it well maintained, lol - quite the opposite. The poor thing has been, to say the least, neglected. You can literally count the number of times my car has seen the inside of a shop on one hand, and that's including tire replacement/oil change shops. Hell I've even gone 17k miles once without EVER changing the oil. I didn't even change the brakes until I started to hearing grinding noises, lol. The poor car is being driven in to the ground but he just won't die! However, the 1989 Chevy S10 that I bought back in 1994 w/ low miles even, fresh out of high school, was an ABSOLUTE NIGHTMARE! Pure American made, junk. The thing constantly needed repairing - the **** was falling apart at the seams! My father had similar experiences with his Fords during his life time. My father & I are damn proud to be an American but we had no choice but to admit, that even to this day, American cars are seriously lacking in quality. I haven't riced my car though, my car is my little work horse.

Where do you think most of these rice boys get their cars? They're hand me downs from their parents. And instead, rather then dumping it for a muscle car, the idea of fixing it up and customizing it, is appealing. The Rice Boy market has exploded and the options are nearly endless as to the details of what you can do. Just like in an RPG PC game, improving your avatar (I'm a PC gamer so I had to use this analogy, ) , it adds alot of sentimetal value and attachment when you continously upgrade it peice by peice, eventually customizing it in to something you can be proud of, something that's unique to the individual choices you made, an extention of your personality if you will. Like when I was a kid and bought an Elf BMX bike, i'd strip the stickers off since I didn't want others to know what exactly I rode. I wanted to add some wonder to my image. Just like those Rice Boy cars, you never quite know what to expect, he just MIGHT actually BE fast, and not all flash. The idea of that is frigin' awesome.

If you go out and buy a Corvette, it's just that... a Corvette. Someone rolls up with the same model and there is no substantial difference between you and him. Just like a Mac, you both went out, bought a large engine with wheels on it, and eventually, maybe, you'll one day get a Chevy's new model.

Furthermore, because of the huge market for Custom Mods and bolt ons for these Rice Boy cars, the cost isn't as much as you assume. Take for example, my car. A perfect display of how simple it is to make my car cute little car in to a little speed demon can be found here:

http://www.240sx.org/links/installs/turbo240/240sx.htm

Seriously now, read that short little project's web page. Don't just skim through it. You can see what I am talking about with the appeal of mod'ing an inconspicous little commuter car in to someting quite zippy. Check out what his project eventually turned out to become. It probably cost him around 2-3k to do that. Just like me (almost the same year and miles when I purchased my car), he probably paid only 3-4k for the car. Chump change when you look at the big picture. And fun & unique to boot.

Anyone can go out a buy a cheap, poorly built, gas guzzling mustang and smoke a few amature, flashy, Rice Boys...
for a while at least, until you can't drive the thing longer then 10 mins without it having some sort of electrical, mechanical problem, or overheating, or the million other problems my friends complain about, lol.

Every young, shaved head, kid with pantara blaring out of the windows of his camero will give you a bunch of stories of how he smoked this import or that import... but he won't bother telling you the stories of when he got smoked or when he was on the side of the road waiting for triple A.


-k

sntnsupermen131

my 96 gmc 2500 truck has 175k miles on it
i got this truck from a company that was getting rid of their older vehicles for 2k
so it was a company truck
much less this truck was a brush company truck
it probably spent almost half those miles off road
then i got my hands on it
this truck has been air born 3-4 times, almost been rolled once, and just put through the day to day **** that i put it through
i take care of it in the sense that i change the oil, change the brakes, essentially, i do anything i have to now so it wont cost me money to fix later
the only thing ive had go out is the air compressor for the a/c and the alternator
now i admit, chevy doesnt make the greatest small trucks, but their large trucks are simply the best
as far as cars go
you could buy the same yr model corvette as the car you linked to for just as much as they spent for the car and modifications, and that corvette will get more respect and be faster
plus, if something breaks down on a full size american made car, chances are you can fix it
everything is so crammed together in those 4 bangers id be lucky to stick my hand in there
-Cody

Keske944

Once again I must interject (need a break from my english paper). I did not say that 4 bangers cannot be made to go fast. I am just saying that if you want to do it pick a sports car to begin with not a glorified grocery getter. These kids with their "fast looking hondas" are everywhere. How often do you pull uf to a light and see one?? Three, four times a day???? Now how many times do you pull up to a light and see a Corvette, or a Porsche???? Other than Porceh Club activities the most Porsches I have seen in one day (not including mine) is 4. Plus when you drive a car like a Porsche there is a certain brotherhodd you enter into. It is an unwritten rule that you acknowledge the other Porsche driver with a wave, a nod , and maybe even a "Nice Car." You will never see two Porsche owners racing down the street. The only place they complete is a a closed circuit. I ran into a 996 Carerra S and all that we did was acknolwedge each other and cruise down the same street taking our sweet time until I came to my turn. It wasn't planned but racing was the last ting on my mind. had a "fast" honda pulled up, we would have pulled out the stops and left him wondering what just happened. I am also not saying that my 944 has never been beat. It has. Once by a 1999 Mustang Cobra R and once by a Honda Civic CRX that happend to be sporting a 20lb bottle of nitrous (which is definitly illeagal for street use). I am indeed a foriegn car fan, however, I stay far away from the aisian markets. There are only two Aisian cars that I would even consider buying. Thoes being the Skyline and and NSX. Other than that, I stay in the German market. The Germans build the most reliable engine on the market. Most people don't know this but they also design and build about 90% of the Japanese engines as well. The reason that American cars are not built up to German standards is because of the way that our economies differ. American car companies have the ability to build an engine that will last 300,000 miles. If you don't believe this look at the old MOPAR slant 6. They stopped making the engine because tehy realized that if they kept making it people would not need a new car every three years. The American car industry expects teh average car buyer to lease a vehicle, drive it for awhile, and trade it in for a lease on a newer model. Thats way american car companies are constantly changeing the spahe of the autos that they make. However, the Europen market is much different. People there only buy a car once every ten years or so. For that matter European car makers focus more on quality rather than quantity. They don't build as many because they don't need to. They also make changes a lot less often. For example the Porsche 911
1963: 911 Introduced
1973/74: New body style indtoduced 2.7 l engine introduced
1974: First trubo introduced
1977: new engine introduced body remains the same
1982: Same body style but now with integrated bumbers introduced
1991: AWD model introduced
1993: turbo gets larger more powerful engine
1995: New turbo AWD model introduced new body introduced
1998: 50th anniversery. It is said that over 1,000,000 Porsches have been built and that 2/3 of them are still on the road.
(Honda eat your heart out)
1999: New body introduced with new engine.

As you can see there have really only been four body chages to the 911 since its birth in 1963. How manyy times has the honda civic body stlye changed in the last decade??? I bet its right around that same figure.

Quality over quantity. If you want a 4 banger to turn into a sentimental thing... buy a VW

PoweredByDodge

Originally posted by Keske944
These restrictions were much like the ones that were put on the NHRA when they no longer allowed Hemi engines to compete. Dodge was winning everything so they said "No more Hemis." I believe that this rule has now changed and Hemi's are once again allowed to dominate the field.

... i dunno the nuts and bolts of it, but mopar as a whole was black listed from racing for a long time there.

i was told there was actually a legal battle regarding it in the last few years that led to mopar being re-allowed into racing.

sadly the old hemi motors aren't used... its the production 360 magnum (HEAVILY modified) that's been used in recent year stock cars... as far as drag racing, i dunno, they probably use "Mopar Performance Replica Hemi" motors i would assume.

there's talk of the 5.7 hemi going into the newer stock cars, but its not meeting with much agreement. the dual plug setup makes for more **** to worry about, and its still to be shown whether all the bugs are worked out... putting aside the fact ath a nascar motor is pretty much stripped down to bare bones and rebuilt to suit their needs, they still want to start with solid product, as they are limited in what they can and cant screw with. i give it a year and u'll see 5.7's in race cars, or a modified version of it... unless they find a way to somehow get the older motors in there. but putting EFI on an old hemi would be tough i think. the new fuel injected setups will get much better mileage which is good for the track - less time in the pits.

Wolfmag

"you could buy the same yr model corvette as the car you linked to for just as much as they spent for the car and modifications, and that corvette will get more respect and be faster"

Not to mention get a 3rd of the gas mileage, handle worse, and look ugly (subjective reason I know, :P). Especially the gas mileage, right now I commute 60 miles to work each way, every day (Cali: Santa Clara to Walnut Creek). Right now I pay about 200-300 dollars a month, depending on gas price hikes.

And "More Respect" you say? LOL just because someone saw and advertisement that said, hey if you buy this car, it will be fast, doesn't make him earn any respect. Hell, I respect and admire someone more who *did* surpise me and make an unsuspecting car haul ****. (I've always thought it would be funny if someone snuck in a porche engine in to a pinto, lol ). That's like respecting some huge, genetically gifted, big framed with guy with a green substance oozing out his eye balls he's so juiced up on HGH & roids at the GYM who gained 40 pounds of lean mass in 6 months. What I respect is the little hard gainer, who went *against* his genetic hurtles and gained only 20 pounds through years of detirmination, dedication, and sheer will. THAT's who I'd respect.

Anyways, your missing the overall point. Just like i said earlier, to some people the idea of moding/sup'ing up a car that isn't *suppose* to be fast is more appealing then buying a car that is advertised as fast. It's the project itself, not just the end result. It's custom. Each peice individually hand chosen from varying brands you trust. That and Import cars tend to just... look better, lol. Nissan 350z, Skyline, Evo 8, WRX anyone?!?!

"plus, if something breaks down on a full size american made car, chances are you can fix it
everything is so crammed together in those 4 bangers id be lucky to stick my hand in there"

Well I suppose they had that in mind when they put together those quality american cars. Yo bob! Ya' don't need to torque that nut down, if it comes loose, they can tighten em themselves!

Ok look, I guess what it comes down to is, yes, there are Rice Boys who give the whole hobby a bad name... but equally so, I've had enough smug punks roll up in their Mustangs and start flexing their cars, talking **** from their rolled down windows, trying to taunt me in to racing them just because I just had my car cleaned and it *looks* sporty. Needless to say, those experience(s) reinforce a stereotype that I just don't want to be a part of.

-k

Keske944

A Porsche motor in a pinto... Do you even know teh mechanics behind it all?? I would gues not. 99% or Porsch engines are rear or mid mounted and rear wheel drive. The few that are front mounted are all inline 4's (way too long for a pinto and) or v8's. It would never work... trust me. However, you can put a Corvette engine in a 944 and more than double the hp in a car that weighs much less than a vette and handles a lot better. The 944 is still considered one of the best handeling cars in teh world, and believe me that handleing has saved my life about three times. The most notable when an accident happend right in front of me on teh San Antoino loop 410. I actually fishtailed at 60mph on the highway wehn i swerved to avoid it and the back end cut right back in and the car acted like othing ever happend. On the ohter hand I just about **** my pants. Not everyne is looking for good gas milage. I know I'm not but than again I don't have your commute either.

I also noticed that you constantly used mustangs for your comparison pourpose. If you are talking the regular ho hum 6 bangers i can understad your frustration. I have taken out my buddies 1992 5.0 as well. However, if you continue to use mustangs as a comparison tool please specify what kind. Are you talking about the Stock, GT, SVT, Cobra, Rousch, or Saleen??? Without specifying what model you are speaking of the only argument that you have is that a 4 banger will get better gas milage than a v8. And lets face it, no one is arguing about that.

Systems

"everything is so crammed together in those 4 bangers id be lucky to stick my hand in there..........."

I'd take it that whoever said this probably has never worked on a sports car before. Ive worked on a 5.0 mustang, and i own a 94 camaro and an 84 nissan 300zx turbo, none of these cars have much space to work on....
"if you wanna talk about a full size car"
if youre talking about a full size american car how can you even begin to compare it to a honda civic, integra, etc?
compare apples with apples....

sntnsupermen131

ive most likely worked on a lot more cars than you have
ive worked on v-8 camaros, mustangs, a corvette once, plus many more
the manufacturers who make these cars are usually smart enough to make stuff easy to get to
ive seen an 80s model honda where i had to disconnect 3 hoses to even be able to reach my hand to get to the oil filter
much less i had to take off some other parts to actually be able to screw it off and a new one on
theres a huge difference b/t a ricer sports car and a camaro
maybe youre the one that doesnt know too much...i dunno
but dont attempt to accuse me that i dont know what im talking about
if i didnt know, i wouldnt post
and when i say full size american car...for this particular post, i refer to a full size sports car...not one where my head is touching the roof...lol
-Cody

Keske944

have any of your ever even apttempted to sit on the inside wheel well of a Hondas engine compartment to change out the lifters??? You can't do it so you have to contort your body in all sorts of unccomfortable positions to get to them (provided you can get to them in the first place). Now try sitting on the engine compartment wheel well of a american car to change out the lifters... it is possible. Which in turn means that you can sit and try to fish thoes lifters out rather tahn standig for however many hours it takes to get the damn things out. Much easier to work on, unless the Honda engines that you are refering to are on your work bench and not on in the car.

Systems

well it sounds like i pissed some people off.... anyways i guess i'd have to say that any vehicle has its potential problems or challenges when it comes to maitenance etc. the plain and simple fact is that a sports car will tend to have much less space because of the design of the vehicle. This is from my experience, and yes i have worked on many a car. and none of them have enough space fore me to work comfortably unless i take the engine out!!!!!!!! lol i guess i wish i had it that easy, anyways yah its true though, theres no replacement for displacement........

Keske944

Ahhh... the light bulb has finally come one.

My work here is done.

Wolfmag

"A Porsche motor in a pinto... Do you even know teh mechanics behind it all??"

No I don't. But when I said that, the point wasn't about the technicalities in fitting a Porsche engine in to a Pinto... the point was the idea of having this beater, everyone laughing at you, but little do they know what lurks under the hood. It's the idea of watching their jaw drop as they just got owned... by a Pinto.

Every point of my post was not to argue the technicalities of it all but the "idea" of taking the quality of an import car, a car that is manufactured, advertised as a simple, reliable commuter car, and turning it in to something quick and fast while not loosing all the properties of it's original reliability. It's the idea of not just going with whatever the manufacture decided/advertised you should have and doing your own thing. The appeal, I must compare again, is similar to playing a Role-playing game. Your avatar starts of weak but eventually over time, through dedication from the user, becomes something the user can be proud of. It seems like this idea cannot be grasped or accepted by certain people. Some see that as silly. Which is fine. Whatever floats your boat.

Of course, the other factor is image. And obviously there are two very distinct sides. The competitiveness of each side is what causes these types of conflicts. Half prefer this image and find the other image boring, or distasteful. Just like a Football game, those fans can go overboard with their fanboyism. Raiders fans anyone? lol.

"I also noticed that you constantly used mustangs for your comparison purpose. If you are talking the regular ho hum 6 bangers i can understand your frustration. I have taken out my buddies 1992 5.0 as well. However, if you continue to use mustangs as a comparison tool please specify what kind. Are you talking about the Stock, GT, SVT, Cobra, Rousch, or Saleen??? Without specifying what model you are speaking of the only argument that you have is that a 4 banger will get better gas mileage than a v8. And lets face it, no one is arguing about that."

Again the technicalities wasn't the point but in general I was referring to the GT variety of varying years, from the boxy stock car looking 5.0s to the newer Sedan looking 4.6s. The reason why I use Mustangs alot in my comparison is because they are quite common on the road, just like civics. They are dirt cheap and epitomize the image of the common American muscle car. It's the most common, most easily attainable muscle car for bobby teenager who wants that certian image. The image that comes to my mind is something out of Grease, with a Fonds looking guy with a cigarette pack rolled in his sleeve, trying to portray his macho-ness. This image, although not quite accurate anymore, still retains *some* of that older stigma which alot of people who like imports don't like. But like i said, just a preference, are you an AFC fan or an NFC fan?

MTXMAN

what you can do is build a custom frame and make everything in the car different from the origional pinto while keeping it roughly the same size, sit the pinto shell on top of your frame, weld where needed and you have a bad **** "pinto" I'd love to make my Saturn into a 4 or rear wheel drive SHO... it'd be fun as hell, take a hell of a lot of custom work though.

Keske944

It would be cheaper to buy a 1978-85 Porsche 911 with teh 3.0l anyway. You can get one with about 100-150k miles (nothing for thoes engines) for about 10-25 grand. That is definitly my next move when it comes to buying a car.