Something to keep an eye on

tonyb

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-right-to-resell-your-own-stuff-is-in-peril-2012-10-04

The Supreme Court will soon take up the issue of your right to sell your own stuff, particularly foreign stuff. Given back in 1908, they decided copyright laws applied to the first sale only but it appears that is now within the realm of faultering. Should their decision go the wrong way, sellers such as Ebay, Amazon, you even, would have to fork over a share of that sale after getting permission in the first place to even sell it from the original copyright holder.

On a seperate issue, and if that 1908 ruleing on only the first sale applies today, how does this affect the music industry with all the file sharing should this decision go the other way ? How would this affect so many other industries.....seeing that pretty much alot of what everyone owns is foreign made in whole or in part.

treitz3

This could have huge implications. Thanks for posting this, Tony.

Tom

obieone

IF, repeat IF it goes the wrong way, this will have a weird impact on certain brands. Apple, Polk, Deftech etc. are US brands, made overseas. The opposite is true for VW, Nissan, Toytota, Honda, BMW which all have plants over here.

It'll be interesting to see which lawyers are where, in this BATTLE: Apple(iTunes) in one corner, Sony music in the other.

I hope SCOTUS can see how much of a mess this would make, and rule accordingly.

EndersShadow

Very interesting and to the person at the heart of the actual lawsuit, more power to you. You found a way to legitimately purchase items cheaper and sell them higher.

That sounds a bit like capitolism to me.....

amulford

Both Ammori and Band worry that a decision in favor of the lower court would lead to some strange, even absurd consequences. For example, it could become an incentive for manufacturers to have everything produced overseas because they would be able to control every resale.

That point has me thinking. Like there hasn't been enough of our manufacturing shipped overseas.

The complainant's don't have a leg to stand on, IMHO. Once an item is sold, then it becomes the private property of the buyer to do with as they wish. It isn't copyright infringement unless the are actually manufacturing the exact same product.

Wiley, which admitted that it charged less for books sold abroad than it did in the United States, sued him for copyright infringement.

This is a prime example of the rampant greed inherent in our society. The books were sold, but because they didn't get the gouge for a domestic sale, they are pissed. Eff that. That is not copyright infringement. He legitimately bought something and sold it for a profit. Sounds like a pretty smart kid to me.

obieone

It proves something else: American higher educations required reading is WAAAAAAY overpriced! That kid made $1.2M from USED books.

tonyb

obieone wrote: »

I hope SCOTUS can see how much of a mess this would make, and rule accordingly.

That was my thinking on it, however, I'm not so sure anymore about the SCOTUS. Could go either way with some caveots thrown in for good measure.

amulford

obieone wrote: »

It proves something else: American higher educations required reading is WAAAAAAY overpriced! That kid made $1.2M from USED books.

Course curriculum is changed just about every year to require the students to buy new books at cut throat prices. It's almost a joke.

No, he found books sold overseas, had other people straw buy them, shipped them to the US and STILL made $1.2M. Now what does that tell you about the US market?

gdb

While looking for a shop manual for a vintage Yamaha dirt bike, I came across several online book rental companies. They wanted approx $26 to rent me my shop manual for a semester. :eek:

SDA1C

This isn't just about books, however. There are many products that could easily be in the group of massive profits if found at the original manufacturer in China and bought at large quantity then resold in the states. I am working on one such product that will reduce my purchases cost from get this $45 each to an unbelievable $3.50 each. I still have a month to wait but it looks very promising. This is about greed as stated earlier and nothing more. Just like Union contracts and people that think they need to make 50 bucks an hour to stand along side the road on a guaranteed contract waiting for another union to show up to drive a few nails. Dont you dare say the capotalism haha. The new catch phrase is socialism pal lol. Our society is being driven by greed and until it caves for a better purpose it will continue to get worse...Isn't it like 12 12 2012 already? lol

On a lighter note. if this does pass then it is safe to say the retail will drastically reduce. Those that are in essence renting and not buying will not pay the higher price if they are not buying outright and have little to no financial recoup ability (sp?). Just building another black market and another race of criminals to further bolster the income into the justice system.

tonyb

SDA1C wrote: »

Just like Union contracts and people that think they need to make 50 bucks an hour to stand along side the road on a guaranteed contract waiting for another union to show up to drive a few nails. Dont you dare say the capotalism haha. The new catch phrase is socialism pal lol. Our society is being driven by greed and until it caves for a better purpose it will continue to get worse...Isn't it like 12 12 2012 already? lol

Wow, hope you aren't serious.One things for sure, you don't know much about the construction industry.

rpf65

I think many people who actually know this case even exists, haven't thought about what could really be at stake here. I look back a few years when this case actually started, even though nobody recognized it at the time. I think it was in the 90's when a salvager found a sucken galley carrying treasure, I believe it was Spanish. ANyway, that country convinced the world court that since it was originally Spanish property, it should still be their property. Sitting at the bottom of the sea, pretty much forgotten, shouldn't really matter.

What of those that find a treasure at a yard sale, flea market, or consignment store. Who gets the reward. The original owner, the store/property owner, or the person who realized what it really was? Look online, can the person who sold you something, not really knowing what he/she had, come back 5 years later, and demand you seel it back to him/her for the price you originally paid? Could any of these people,plus the original artist/manufacturer deserve any further compensation for the item?

As is always the quetion, where does the leach chain stop?

Simple. If you bought an item, it should be yours to keep, sell, or destroy as you see fit.

SDA1C

Please enlighten me my friend.

SDA1C

rpf65 wrote: »

Simple. If you bought an item, it should be yours to keep, sell, or destroy as you see fit.

Holy Crap! Done let H9 hear you say that!!!! You'll be wiping **** off your leg for a week.

txcoastal1

First of all thanks Tony

OK now way to much Gov't....so if I go to Fry's buy a hard drive resell the drive to customer 10% higher than purchase I will be violating copy right laws. This is inline with a stupid piece in the Obama Care bill that I must 1099 "all" vendors purchases .i.e. home depot, wal-mart, fry's etc...this creates excessive paper work and getting every vendors info is like pulling teeth and makes for way to much transparency and includes excess waste of info that the gov't can't even handle.

tonyb

SDA1C wrote: »

Please enlighten me my friend.

About what ? The construction industry.....or you being serious in your comments ?

If the construction industry....where would you like to start ? Your supposed theory on gauranteed contracts ? 50 bucks an hour to do nothing ? I'm all ears bro ?

If about your comments on socialism or capitalism......we can do that too but I'll lay odds we won't get far before the big kaboom happens to the thread.

amulford

SDA1C wrote: »

Please enlighten me my friend.

Well for one thing that guy standing there most likely isn't making as much as you think, and that guy probably only gets to work part of the year. I have been in construction for over 25 years, both union and nonunion. The people making the lion's share in that industry are not the people actually doing the building, though they should be. The best analogy I can remember is when I saw a contractor come to a contract negotiation complaining that we made too much money. He had driven from his $2.5M estate in his $225K Lamborghini Diablo...

I am working on one such product that will reduce my purchases cost from get this $45 each to an unbelievable $3.50 each.

Now I ask you this: will you reduce the retail price for this product to reflect your purchase cost? For some reason I don't think so. Hell, I wouldn't complain if you even turned 100% on it. But it would hurt you if someone cut into that 1200% your thinking you should get from the American consumer...

C'mon man.

tonyb

Why ......Antny.....that sounds like, maybe it could be......Greed !!! Same thing that the rest of the world is guilty off ? Nah....can't be.

SDA1C

tonyb wrote: »

About what ? The construction industry.....or you being serious in your comments ?

If the construction industry....where would you like to start ? Your supposed theory on gauranteed contracts ? 50 bucks an hour to do nothing ? I'm all ears bro ?

If about your comments on socialism or capitalism......we can do that too but I'll lay odds we won't get far before the big kaboom happens to the thread.

Yea I know you're right about the kaboom lol. best leave the idea of making a buck out of the forum. As far as construction...I have been a union and non union ironworker since 1991. I think I said 25+ in the other post but I was thinking about a thread on how long for audio..i have been the one on overtime (38.87x1.5 do the math there Halo!) waiting for a concrete/rebar when the tool is in my truck and ties are on my hip. Don't tell me about waste in the union and the government contracts with colleges and schools. We can go to school on construction real quick if you like.

SDA1C

Amulford,

Though I appreciate your enthusiasm and faith in my decisions about sharing the wealth...If it does go through, the forum will be the first to know...stay tuned.

When it comes to who is standing around waiting, making too much money waiting on something dumb.... I mentioned that in another response, been there done that partner.

yeahbuddy

My Mechanics of Materials book is a "Wiley Asia Student Edition" paperback, purchased for $20 when the US hardcover (only edition) sold for better than $140. Guess I contributed to that $1.2MM.

The irony is that when I took a course on globalization, there was no Asian edition textbook to be found. Guess Wiley isn't releasing those textbooks abroad for fear that they figure it out.

tonyb

SDA1C wrote: »

Yea I know you're right about the kaboom lol. best leave the idea of making a buck out of the forum. As far as construction...I have been a union and non union ironworker since 1991. I think I said 25+ in the other post but I was thinking about a thread on how long for audio..i have been the one on overtime (38.87x1.5 do the math there Halo!) waiting for a concrete/rebar when the tool is in my truck and ties are on my hip. Don't tell me about waste in the union and the government contracts with colleges and schools. We can go to school on construction real quick if you like.

School ?? LOL....bro, been there too, still am. Building trades are a different animal, that I can agree. Waste ? absolutely....but thats a very broad brush you painted with that 50 bucks an hour to do nothing comment. Actually, i'm pro union to a point, and that point ended a long time ago. Now, I'm against most unions including my own. If ya want to talk shop we should probably do so in PM's because this subject can get testy....political, and offend a few.
Incidently, I had to laugh at your analogy with the tool on your truck and the ties on your hip.....so true in the real world.

tonyb

Back on subject.....does anyone stop and ask why the markup is so high on these books ? If these publishers can supposedly make money at what they sell for overseas, why by the time it gets to a consumer here does the price skyrocket ? Is it because thats what the market dictates and we will pay ? Seems to me anyway when looking at ways to make higher education more affordable to the masses, this is one thing that could easily be considered and not cost anyone a dime in higher taxes. Just a thought is all.

heiney9

tonyb wrote: »

Back on subject.....does anyone stop and ask why the markup is so high on these books ?

Because you can't take the class without the proper materials and I liken it to Ticket Master. They can charge it because they can get it and there is very little in the way of competition and what competiton there might be keeps the price at the same level. There is ZERO incentive to sell at a lower cost to th student.

It's ridiculous to pay $100-200 for a book that is used a semester, then you get $20 back when you sell it back and usually within a year or two the book is outdated.

H9

nooshinjohn

Bill O'Rielly is doing a segment on this tonight....

EndersShadow

Tony, my assumption would be that its got something to do with the schools purchasing the books at x and selling them at y, adding yet another profit margin to them.

Personally I always bought my schoolbooks from ANYWHERE but the school bookstore as normally there was at least a 10% minimum markup.

Another thought would be that and if you sell a book at X price overseas and the price is too high (due to the economy, currency rates, ect) so no one buys it, you eventually have to lower the price to make sure you are actually selling them. Those same conditions may not exist in other markets, hence the price desparity.

Also factor in some companies charge a ridiculous amount of shipping and you can see how there can be a big difference in price. If you buy closer to the manufacture you cut out their shipping costs which normally probably are a bit padded for extra profit.

heiney9

Too bad, I wouldn't pour water on Bill O if he was on fire let alone watch anything he has to say. Completely useless human being.

IMO, of course

H9

amulford

Back on subject.....does anyone stop and ask why the markup is so high on these books ?

Because you can't take the class without the proper materials

That's a big part of it and strengthens my point. Curriculums are changed and thus the materials will change. Now, granted, there are subjects which will dictate such rapid changes to reflect technological advancements, such as software engineering or biomedical sciences. But how about mathematics, languages, or history? Have the laws of calculus changed? How about the rules of language usage? I am pretty sure time travel hasn't been invented to rearrange the facts of our historical record.

Add to the fact that alot of the time the course materials, IE books, are paid for with the grants and loans, so the funds are available at no immediate detriment to the students, and you have a system ripe for the picking...

SDA1C

amulford wrote: »

Add to the fact that alot of the time the course materials, IE books, are paid for with the grants and loans, so the funds are available at no immediate detriment to the students, and you have a system ripe for the picking...

Precisely! When the Gub is there to blithely give stuff away there will always be someone in line to exploit it.

The books for my classes are available as downloads and you would think they should be on the cheaper side. I get the idea of SOME cost increase when it is printed material as there are much higher costs involved in manufacturing but to charge the same price for a book whether it is no the shelf or on disc or site is just downright gouging.

tonyb

That works for some, like government subsidizing the costs of books, and that gets into another subject having to do with government subsidies that actually increase costs. Still others who get no grants, pay for this stuff out of pocket. The kid in the story was pretty dang smart imho. He saw a market and was able to secure a great price and made himself alot of coin. Nobody was hurt in this scenario so I don't see the hupla over it.

My faith in the SCOTUS is somewhat shaken lately. I'm hoping they toss this one out but I have a feeling in part they will allow certain things to happen. How does this get to the SC anyway ? Seems to me the lower courts could have handled it....and that makes me nervous.

EndersShadow

tonyb wrote: »

Seems to me the lower courts could have handled it....and that makes me nervous.

Technically the did handle it, but were dumb

From the article:

That’s being challenged now for products that are made abroad, and if the Supreme Court upholds an appellate court ruling, it would mean that the copyright holders of anything you own that has been made in China, Japan or Europe, for example, would have to give you permission to sell it