3803 and sub not good!!!

dave shepard

We watched 2 fast 2 furious and tonight we are watching Charies Angles and the bass sucks! I don't know what is going on but the sub is not responding as good as it did with the Panny when we watched K-19 it shook the whole house at the 16/3, half gain it is at now. What could be the problem?, does anybody have any setting suggestions for me to try? I can't seem to find them.

Thanks

Dave

gatemplin

You have a PB2+ right? Have you calibrated and experimented with positioning?

dave shepard

Yea I've calibrated it (Avia) and the sub plays good but when the movies are in there is hardly any sound and surely can't feel a dam thing like I use to. Also after the movie I put in the Avia to double check and no sound at all just picture I put Charlies angles back in and there is sound, now I'm back to watching Avia with no sound:mad: :mad: . Whats with that?

dave shepard

Originally posted by gatemplin
You have a PB2+ right? Have you calibrated and experimented with positioning?

Everything (speakers) is in the same place the only thing that was changed was the Panny for the Denon.

Dr. Spec

Dave:

I had the same exact problem with my 3803 and Avia. Set your 3803 sub level to no less than -5 and then run the sub 7-8 dB above flat if you are using Avia. It tends to give a very weak sub calibration level. Everything will be fine.

Make sure the DRC's are off in the DVD player and 3803, and that the LFE channel level is set to 0.

dave shepard

Well I figured the problem the problem with the no sound to the Avia disc, I must have hit the mode button at the bottom of the remote:o , Boy do I feel better about that and a bumb **** at the same time. Dam little buttons. Thanks Doc I'll give it a try. Did you get my voice mail? I tried to call you on my lunch the other day.

Dave

dave shepard

Well you come through again Doc. I am comparing the movie U571's sub action and am getting the effects that make this a great sub. I had to use these settings to achive the sound and feel I first witnessed with the Panny.

TEST TONE control

---

S.W...12db
EXT. in sub level (?)

---

+15db
DRC (reciever/dvd player)--- off
LFE

---

0
crossover

---

80
treble

---

+10
bass

---

+10
Effect level

---

15
Cinema EQ

---

off


I also raised the gain a smige (just past the half mark) to get the feel. I think that everything is set to max except the sub's gain control. Does this seem right? or should I turn the recievers controls down and adjust the sub's gain? The crossover is set to disable, 0 phase 16/3, I think that seem's to give the most felt bass without the loudness and seems to blend pretty good with the movies too. Boy did my room need this sub this thing is pure excitement.
In my other post (6th ave order) I had some reciever coincerns can you look them over for me.

Thanks so much

Dave

fireshoes

bass +10, treble +10 *shudder*

RuSsMaN

Originally posted by fireshoes
bass +10, treble +10 *shudder*

Agreed.

danger boy

that seems a bit to high for me too.

rs159

My ears hurt...

Dr. Spec

Dave:

Disable your tone controls for DD and DTS playback.

And set your sub level in the negative region (around -5) and recalibrate the sub. +12 is assuredly distorting the output signal.

LFE at 0 is fine.

80 Hz is fine.

That +15 ext. sub is for DVD-A and SACD. I'll explain that if/when you go that route.

dave shepard

I have put the tone controls to +10 bass/treble to see what how things would sound and it dosen't seem overly bright like I thought. It seemed to brighten things a little but not by an excessive amount. When I went to get the fxi30's in Akron they had them hooked to an Onkio and it was extremly bright to where my ears really hurt and was seeing if and suprised that the 3803 would not get it there, not that I wanted it there I just wanted to exparament with the controls and found that it did get brighter but not nearly as bright as the Onkio. Mabey I'm missing something but really it's not that different then setting at 0 just alittle stronger sound. Will try the sub adjustments and let ya know. Why shut the tone controls off? does this have an effect on the sub?

Thanks

Dave

dave shepard

I've put the sub at -2 and recalibrated the speakers I tried -5 and felt it wasn't enough. I then put in the U571 movie and played the scene where a number of depth charges were going off and getting the highest spl of 106db with the master volume at 19.5 the gain is at one mark past half. Where would the highest gain setting you would recomend not to pass?

Thanks

Dave

Dr. Spec

There is a tone control defeat switch. It might be on if you don't notice any difference in the settings.

The volume setting at the sub is not revelant unless put not context.

The amount of power the woofer sees is based on the strength of the input signal, the master volume setting, and the sub amp volume setting.

If the input signal is strong enough, the amp will drive the woofer to full power even at a 1/4 setting.

FWIW, my PB2+ is set at about 1/2, the sub level is -5, and I'm calibrated to Avia about 4-5 dB hot for HT.

The sub is pretty bullet proof in the 3/25 setting (which you should be using).

If you are calibrated with Avia, the hardest I ever drove U-571 DTS was -14 and it was deafening in the surround channels and I was hitting 114-116 dB peaks in a 2000 ft3 room.

dave shepard

I think the tone defeat is off but I will cheak that when my wife gets up. We did notice there is a differance between set at 0 and +10 on both treb./bass, it just does not become any where near ear pearcing like the Onkio was at CC, it seemed to raise the leavel of sound from speakers and made them more defined without making them overly bright at all. I don't have them by-wired, could that be the reason?

I was told (from Polk) that full power of the subs amp will be reached when the subs volume is at half anything above half will be dynamic power (I think that is how they put it). That rule doesn't apply to the PB2+?

I think that 4-5db hot means that when calibrating with the Avia test tones (you are told in the Avia intro to make the sub level read the same as the speakers on the meter) you go that much higher then, is that right? So if the Avia is already 7-8db's low on the sub you sould then have a reading that is 11-12db's higer,correct?

I will put the sub at 3/25 as you suggested.

My room size is 19x25x9 (4275) with 3 closed french doors with a 7ft archway into a 15x15x9 dinning room and a stairway leading to the 2nd story, could that be the cause of it all given the room size has an effect on sound?

I don't mean to make anybody mad, I just don't know what you guys sometimes are refering too when it comes to the tech talk and abbreviations, I get lost in the conversation when that starts. So I go and try to ask other people at hi-fi stores and recieve answers like "the 3803 is the problem you should have gotten the Yamaha", or "Kenwood" or "I don't know about the Denon but look at the price on that Onkio ($699) there's the differance". I have gotten responces like "the polks are the colprit you should have gotten these (what ever they are) instead, get rid of those they just don't have it". I even got responces to "start completly over". The only thing that does is piss me off. So please bare with me while I try to figure and absorb it all. By the way nobody says a dam thing about the sub, apparantly even to them they feel that was a good choice.

Thanks and sorry for the long story

Dave

dave shepard

I just had a thought, if all my equipment was like the SVS (45 day satisfaction or money back offer) I don't think I would get it completly set-up to give it a proper audition to find out at the rate I'm going . Sometimes you should crack on youself before someone else does:D .

Dave

fireshoes

The 3803 is a very good receiver. You'll get it figured out. The people telling you to get this or that are just peddling their wares.

Dr. Spec

Hi Dave:

Sorry I missed your call at work; I was bow hunting.

If the tone control is defeated, messing around with it won't affect the sound at all. If it does to your ear, it is nothing more than a placebo effect (which can be powerful).

If you engage the tone control, its effect will be "obvious" on bass and treble.

If you are calibrating with Avia, set the Master Volume to 00 when you run the test tones. Run the Avia test tones in the manual mode so you don't have to rush.

Set the meter to C-weighted Slow on the 80 scale. Have it at head level, pointing forward, and tilted toward the ceiling about 40 degrees.

Run the each channel with the test tone and use the center button of the 3803 remote to call up each channel level and adjust each one until it reads 85 dB at the seat.

Once you are done with all five channels, switch the meter to the 90 scale and run the sub rumble tone. Keep the 3803 sub level at -5, use the 3/25 port/SS tune, and set the sub xo switch to Disable. Adjust the PB2+ volume until the meter is reading about 90 dB (give or take)

See how you like the sub level and peformance. If it is a little weak still, increase the PB2+ volume to get 92 dB on the meter.

Make sure the dynamic range controls are off in both the 3803 and in the DVD player. And keep the LFE channel level at 0 in the 3803.

dave shepard

I've gone through the calibrations and the steps you suggested are the same that I've taken with the exception of -5 instead I put mine at -2, I will do it again at -5. I believe the setting 85db speakers and (90 something) can't remember sub were where I kept them on the money for each one I will check them again it was getting real late I think 12:30am and I too was headed out at 5:00am for the hunt. What does putting the sub at -5 do anyway? I also reset it to 25/3 and the crossover is disabled. But at -5 I will have to set the gain higher and that is what I was coincerned with and what I was told about the max and dynamic power and should not want to run in dynamic power.

The tone defeat is off otherwise the reciever's on-screen menu doesn't let the bass/treb to be adjusted and I still don't see it being overly bright with both at +10 it seemed to increase the sound. What is the placebo effect mean? When I turn on and off the tone control there is a slight differance nothing that is like night and day .

I've read that you lucked out and got a buck, congrats. How big was he. I've gotten a real late start this year, the first time I was able to get out was Sat. and missed two doe first thing in the morning and found that my bow string guide was broke and the string was on the oppisite side of the guide bar causing the arrow to go hard left :mad:, 3.5hrs sleep didn't help either.

Thanks for everything

Dave

danger boy

Your PB2+ should be knocking things off the walls..

i know on my 20-39PCi the best sound comes when i enable the subs crossover. sounds strange.. and wrong. but the sub hits lower when i have the crossover enabled. I use the LFE output from my receiver. which by the way doesn't have a variable crossover. it's fixed.

do you have some kind of midnight mode enabled on your receiver somewhere?

Dr. Spec

Setting the sub level at -5 just keeps pre-out distortion realy low, that's all. -2 is probably OK too. A very high sub level (like +12) will send the sub a pretty badly distorted signal.

Don't worry about where the SVS volume control ends up being set. The rms/dynamic argument is flawed. You could turn the SVS to max and if you send it a weak enough signal, it won't play loud at all. The volume of the sub is based on both the input signal and the amp volume setting. Knowing one without the other is useless information and you cannot draw any conclusions from it.

Just go Master Volume 00, 85 dB all around with Avia, and try 90 dB for the SVS. If it is too weak, try 92-93 dB. Avia tends to give weak sub calibration, so most people end up being happy at 7-8 dB over the other speakers. Just remember to run the sub 3/25 because you have a big room and wee calibrating hot for HT and the sub will be working hard and you want to set it for maximum output (3 ports) and maximum protection (SS 25).

The placebo effect is when you convince yourself you heard a difference and there really isn't one. Like when you increase the treble and the tone control defeat switch is enabled and it still sounds brighter. Many audiophiles have been fooled by the placebo effect. Anyway, you are certainly welcome to mess with the tone controls, but for DD/DTS, the flat/off/defeat settings should be fine; Polks generally have a well balanced natural sound with no EQ.

We've got a bunch of meat in the freezer already. Button buck, doe, 8 point, and 3 point. All dropped within 40 yards of being hit.

We've had some losses and heartbreak too. Two solidly hit P&Y bucks have not been recovered, despite using some the best trackers in NY. These were liver hits.

The 8 pointer scored about 115 and weighted 218 on the hoof. Not P&Y but a nice deer. Heart shot broadside at 42 yards while working a scrape. Walked away and face planted in a creek bottom.

dave shepard

Thanks Doc,

I will give the settings a try and will post my findings. The last thing I want is to be sending dirty (distorted) signals to any of the equipment, if memory serves me right that shortens there lifespan sometimes very quickly.

Excellent hunting, does your wife hunt too. You'll be having deer for dinner for the remainder of the year. This is my 3rd year hunting with a bow and love it, way better then with a gun that's for sure. I should have listened to my bow pro shop, he told me last year that I would get 1 more year before things need tending (string& guides), live and learn I guess.

Thanks again

Dave

Dr. Spec

Sending the PB2+ a dirty signal won't hurt it per se; it just won't sound as good.

If you have a questions on bow set-up and tuning, let me know. I'm a NY certified hunter instructor for bow and gun and I know how to set-up bows really well.

Experiment with placement of the sub if you can; sometimes a small change makes a big difference in volume or sound quality.

dave shepard

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
Sending the PB2+ a dirty signal won't hurt it per se; it just won't sound as good.

If you have a questions on bow set-up and tuning, let me know. I'm a NY certified hunter instructor for bow and gun and I know how to set-up bows really well.

Experiment with placement of the sub if you can; sometimes a small change makes a big difference in volume or sound quality.

Well that's good to know about the dirty signal. That quote came from a salesmen who years ago told me that in reguards to car audio I just figured that it could apply to home also.

You always seem to amaze the hell out of me with your knowledge of home theater and subs. Your expert opinions and evaluations with reports that rival the best magazine reports and endless support you give to this forum all of which have made you the goto man. And now you are also a certified hunting instructor, that's excellant, where do you find time? I would hope that we could meet someday and do some shooting. I've been into guns since I was 10 and enjoyed them ever since I also collect them (one a year is all my wife allows:rolleyes: ). I shoot a Mcpherson Annihilator 65lb pull, 28"draw, Easton xx75/ 125 Muzzy broadhead. I may call for some suggestions if that's ok.

Unfortunately the wife says the sub stays put she orginizes things in the house until we get another with a dedicated room in it, hopefully next year.

Thanks

Dave

Dr. Spec

Check the Easton Tuning Guide on line as a PDF document. You need Adobe Reader to view it.

Make sure your arrow size is properly spined for the draw weight and length. Then look at FOC and make sure your head weight is correct for that arrow for a hunting application.

If all that looks OK (I'm betting 125 is high though for a head weight), then chrono the bow and make sure you are not over 240 fps. If you are, switch to mechanical heads as a fixed head won't fly properly at anything over "about" 240.

After that, paper tune. Paper tune is everything.

Once the arrow is leaving the bow properly, then adjust your sight pins as the last item. Never use the pins to compensate for bad arrow flight or for differences between field point and broad head flight. The two should fly the same.